Talk:Abu Talib ibn Abd al-Muttalib/Archive 1

Archive 1

See Also

Salman, bro, did you really think about this before doing it? --Striver00:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

There was nothing to think about, before doing this. I only added few names in the also see box and since there was nothing in the reference section i deleted it and today i am going to add the reference section as well as some references for this article. So i don't think that if a wikipedian wants to add someone names on the "also see" section, the he will have to discuss it on the talk page. Thank You--Salman 17:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Bro, every name you added is already in the article!--Striver 21:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

But I listed them in “See Also” so if the reader wants to learn more about those individuals then they can go to their article. Sometime when we are reading an article about a person we do not care about any other person that is named in the article. That’s the reason I added those names in “See Also”. Thank you--Salman 02:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Title of this page

Why this page has the name of Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib spelled Abu-Talib ibn Abd-al-Muttalib? I think we should not be playing around with the way a name is spelled. We shouldn’t even be playing around with the name Abdul(lah) since it is one of the names of Islamic Prophet Mohammed. So I think this page should be moved to Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib. Thank You--Salman21:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

well, i dont agree. I rather have it in a maner that is more clear to the english reader. If pronunciation is the problem, i prefer having a section about it, not even "Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib" would be perfect, a english reader does not know what the "‘" is supposed to mean. the "z-y ibn a-b-c" makes it more clear what is going on, much more than "z y ibn ab c". --Striver21:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Striver my brother please don't write articles thinking that your readers are stupid. I have been living in New York City and I know that everybody knows what Abu means (Abu means father of). Every westerner knows that because of names like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Abu Hafiza, Abu Faraj al-Libbi, Abu Mohammed al-Masri, and Abu Zubaydah. Most people that are going to be reading our article are going to be mature not a 5 years old immature. Look at the way ‘Abdul is spelled on this article (Abd-al). What’s going on, our job supposed to be to give out knowledge and right information about things, and that include right spelling of names and pronunciation. Striver the way you are representing this name isn’t professional. When Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed (and sent to hell), did you notice the way his name was spelled in English newspapers. They didn’t spell it like Abu-Musab al-Zar-qa-wi, they spelled it the way it is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, simple no confusion to the readers (professionalism). Everybody knows that Abu Talib means father of Talib and ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib means son o f ‘Abdul Muttalib. Wikipedia even has article on Abu and Ibn, for those that don’t understand what they mean and how they are pronounced. So I think that we should write the name of Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib like it should be. Thank You--Salman 02:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Bro, you are missrepresenting my case. I would not write "Abu-Musab al-Zar-qa-wi", simply Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi. Did you notice that what you quoted actualy has a "-" between "Al" and "Zarqawi"? --Striver 14:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Striver we are writing this article and this article is going to be read by many readers and because of that we have to present each and everything single word (including names) in a professional way. It is our responsibility to tell westerns the right way of spelling and pronunciation Muslim names. If professional people like newspapers editors and journalists write Abu Musab al-Zarqawi instead of Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi in their articles, then who are we to write the name of a person like Hazrat Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib (AS) name like that (the way you are promoting) and also see the way wikipedia was spelling ‘Abdul (they were spelling it Abd-al). Now you as a Muslims tell me what is the correct and professional way of presenting the names of Muslims that were close to Hazrat Muhammad SAW. And there is a “-” between "Al" and "Zarqawi" because Al doesn’t mean anything else then “the” in Arabic, that’s why they divided it (it isn’t a part of his name). Thank You--Salman 01:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Bro, look: "Abdul-Muttalib" = 49 100 hits,"Abd-al-Muttalib" = 46 300. Its basicly the same number. And i still prefer "Abd al-Muttalib" over "Abdul-Muttalib" any day due to clarity. The issue is if we are going to have"Abd al" or "Abdul". I simply do not agree with you that "everyone" knows that "Abdul" means "Abd al". As you said yourself"there is a “-” between "Al" and "Zarqawi" because Al doesn’t mean anything else then “the” in Arabic, that’s why they divided it (it isn’t a part of his name)" --Striver 02:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Brother Stiver please don't put words in my mouth. I never stated that "Abdul" means "Abd al". They are totally different things I know what Abdul means but I don’t even know how to pronounce Abd al. Abd al is a spelling mistake made by the very first wikipedian who started writing this article, he probably didn’t have enough information. Why are you making it complicated? It is simple as ABC. Abu Talib means father of and ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib means son of ‘Abdul Muttalib. Now I don’t know who came up with the idea of “a-b ibn c-d” is better then ab ibn cd, this thing doesn’t make any sense to me. Professionalism bro that’s the thing we should have in our mind when we are writing or editing articles. People that will be reading our article are going to be well educated people who are just reading our article to increase there knowledge about that topic or person. A-b ibn c-d will just confuse and mislead westerners. You did the search and I am right 2800 more right and accurately then you, so I believe that we should move the article to Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib, like it should be unless you want to keep arguing. Thank You--Salman 02:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Profesionalism? Ok, is Restatement of History of Islam profesional? It agrees with me--Striver 03:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the link information you just gave me, see insdie the book. Even if you include that on your side, I will still have more vote then you. The votes say that majority of the websites about Islam prefer Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib, no the other way around and I don’t even know how to pronounce Abd al. What is Abd al? How is it pronounced? I don’t know man lets just go with that majority of the votes say. And even that book disagrees with you check this out and read "The birth of Ali ibn Abi Talib" Thank You--Salman 03:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Bro, we are not going to agree. Bring someone else that agrees with you and we can take it from there. It should be easy if you are right. --Striver 03:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Come on brother Striver I used your source to prove you that you are wrong. The majority of the people go with Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib. Abd al was a mistake made by the person who started this article at wikipedia; maybe he didn’t know how to spell ‘Abdul. Lets just move the page to Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib and then I will move the other pages that contain his name with the spelling error cuz I have a test for my accounting class, so I got to sleep early brother. Thank you--Salman 03:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Bro, im telling you: i dont like "Abdul Mutalib", i view that it mumbo-jumbos the deeper meaning of "Servant [of] The Mutalib" and this is somewhat remedied by having it as "Abd al-Mutalib", just as we have "Abu Musab al-Zarqwi" and not "Abu Musabul Zarqawi". Im not going to change my mind, i do not like when the "al" is merged with the previous word. We dont have "Son[of]the George", we have "Son [of] the-George", its awfull in the english sense to merge the "al" with theprevious word! No, i do not like "Abdul Mutalib", i want "Abd al-Mutalib", heck, i even prefer "Abd AlMutalib". Im not changing my mind, i feel my motivation is superior to "How is it pronounced" + "5% more people prefer Abdul". Im going to bed. Peace.--Striver 03:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Striver my brother now you are being unprofessional. Firstly, It doesn’t matter that you like or dislike, Abdul Muttalib was the father of Abu Talib, that why Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib makes more sense then the one you prefer. That one doesn’t even make any sense. Secondly, I think it is your habit of misspelling other people names because this is the correct way of spelling Abu Musab is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, not the way you spelling it Abu Musabul Zarqawi. -Ul- in Arabic becomes a part of the name, unlike al which just means -the- in English. So you are going away, should I take that as an approval, that Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib is the correct way of spelling the name of the father of our first Imam, Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib. Thank You--Salman03:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it only means im going to sleep now, nothing more. Abu Talib's father, Abd al-Muttalib, was named so since people belived he was "the servant [of] Muttalib", "Abd al-Muttalib". Its simple: Find somebody that agrees with you, if i cant convince him/her either, you two win. --Striver 03:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Striver what are you trying to do, make me confuse. ‘Abdul Muttalib’s real name was Shaiba. He was just called ‘Abdul Muttalib because when he was a child he was born with white hair. When his uncle Muttalib brought him to Mecca with him people thought that he was his slave (because of his white hair) not his nephew. I don’t know where you came up with the concept of “he was named so since people believed he was “the servant of Muttalib”, “Abd al-Muttalib.” I don’t need someone to bring our here because I am support my idea the best here, I have been dominate throughout the whole discussion. So if you want you can bring one of your friends our here and I will still defend what Shia’ism say and believe. I will try my best to move all the pages the contain the Abd al-Muttalib to ‘Abdul Muttlib by tomorrow night, so you have that all time to convince me that your right. 'Abdul Muttalib is more popular see this, if you don’t believe me 64,100 results. i am going to move the pages today. Thank you--Salman 21:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Page Title Again

I'm sorry to say this, but there is a standard way of writing Arabic, and this page title has been changed around a lot, but not to the correct form. Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdu’l-Muttalib or Abu Talib ibn `Abdu'l-Muttalib are the correct ways, with two ways of writing the ayin and hamza. Is there a problem with using these? And likewise Abu Talib ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib or Abu Talib ibn `Abd al-Muttalib would work as well. Cuñado - Talk 17:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Brother Cunado I spent three days on discussing this matter with brother stiver. It is right above this topic. So I would prefer first read that and then if you are still confused then please don’t hesitate to write back. You know it doesn’t make any sense that we just finalized a decision after three days and another editor comes up and talks about the same topic. All you have to do is read the above topic and you will understand why the move change took place. I am going to delete the Arabic way of writing the name of Hazrat Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib (AS), since the name written inn Arabic doesn’t any to do with the anything with the name now. I would like an Arabic brother to please help us write the name of Hazrat Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib (AS). Thank You--Salman 00:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I cannot believe this Cunado you changed the name of Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib in the article without discussing the changes in the article and it took my three days to get everyone to agree on Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib. Next time please do read the talk page.--Salman 00:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually I followed your conversation. Regardless on what was decided, the page title is wrong and I was pointing it out. There are international standards of Arabic transliteration, and the current title of Abu Talib ibn 'Abdul Muttalib does not follow any of those standards. I offered four options that do conform to established standards. Would you care to comment on what I proposed? If you want to learn more please visit the MOS for Arabic. Cuñado - Talk

Brother Cuñado it doesn’t make any sense that when Striver and I were discussing this topic I even went to other Muslims editor to get them involved in this topic, but no one showed interest and because of that they didn’t participate in this discussion (you could have talked about this then). I have been discussing this topic with striver with past three days. And now you all the sudden started talking about the same issue that I ended with striver. Bro please go over each and every single sentence that is stated above and I hope you will understand why I moved the page(s). Majority people prefer using Abu Talib ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib and that is one of the reasoning I went on with moving the page (s). Thank you--Salman 02:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Salman, please read every sentence of the MOS, and realize that there are guidelines for wikipedia regulating how to transliterate Arabic. It doesn't matter if you and Striver came to a conclusion or not, it doesn't matter if days, months, or years have passed after you decided a title. Cuñado - Talk 02:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Brother Cuñado i know arabic i am from Pakistan. I just want the names of Islamic individuals to appear on wikipdia without any spelling mistakes and wrong pronouncation. Thank You--Salman 02:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Salman, there are two ways to write the 'ayin' character, and neither way is with an apostrophe. There are also two ways of transliterating the definite article. So that makes four correct ways of writing عبد المطلب

	‘	`
Abdul-	‘Abdu’l-Muttalib	`Abdu'l-Muttalib
Abd al-	‘Abd al-Muttalib	`Abd al-Muttalib

The current form of 'Abdul Muttalib does not conform to any standard. I am going to change the page title (and the article content) to one of these four. Do you have any suggestions? Cuñado - Talk 16:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Brother Cuñado, since you are so familiar with wikipedia’s policies can you please example me the reason why there is a “-” between ‘Abdul and Muttalib. ‘Abdul Muttalib is the name of the grandfather of the Islamic Prophet Mohammed and I am not going to get wikipedia play around with his name like that. My job as a Muslim wikipedian is to provide information about Islam and Muslims individuals in a neutral way. But I am not willing to play around with the name of those individuals. Do you know how the name ‘Abdul was spelled at wikipedia before I started editing, it was written Abd-al and I am from Pakistan and I even don’t know how to pronounce “Abd-al”. Wikipedia is for mature readers and I even did a search on google.com and yahoo.com and I found out that majority of the people spell the name of the Islamic Prophet Mohammed as ‘Abdul Muttalib. Thank You--Salman 21:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

OK I think I understand a little better where you're coming from.

In Arabic any time you have a definite article "al", the transliteration always has a dash separating the "al" components from the rest. In Arabic it is written... `abd al Muttalib... in three distinct parts. But in pronunciation the D of abd is followed by a damma (the U), and the hamza over the alif is not pronounced. Instead it goes to the next letter, the lam (the L). Then, the "al" and the word following it are always separated by a dash. This is all in the Arabic MOS. Google and yahoo search engines do not acknowledge a dash, they treat it like a space. If you find that some websites are not using the correct version, it is because there are dozens of ways to spell the same Arabic word. There are 40 ways to spell Muammar al-Gaddafi, but there are only a few which allow you to re-create the original Arabic from the English spelling, and Mu‘ammar al-Qadhāfī does allow that to happen. The United Nations, the US government, and many international organizations have developed standards for transliterating to bring order from chaos, and they are all pretty similar. See Arabic transliteration.

As for `Abdul, I'm sorry to say that `Abdul is not a name by itself. It must be followed by something, otherwise it just means "Servant of the..." But using the example of `Abdu'llah, there are two "correct" ways of spelling it: either `Abdullah, or `Abd Allah. One is based on pronunciation (`Abdullah), and the other more closely follows the way it is written in Arabic (`Abd Allah), but both allow you to re-create the original Arabic script, so either is acceptable. This is also in the Arabic MOS.

Any more questions? Please comment on my suggestion of moving the page title to one of the four versions above. Cuñado - Talk04:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Real name and converting to islam

Sorry but there are sources which declare that Abu Taleb's real name was Abd Manaf not Imran (see Arabic version in Arabic wikipedia). Finally, I think that the removed page which demonstrates the differece of views between Sunni and Shia in regard to Abu Taleb becoming Muslim , should be returned again! I completely believe that Abu Taleb was never Muslim! Please, re-read the page which I made reference to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.13 (talk) 02:40, 26 April 2009 (UTC)