Talk:Academy Award for Best Actor/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

First gay character to win this Oscar

Please research Ben-Hur. It is well documented that Ben-Hur is a queer coded movie and the actor Stephen Boyd and director William Wyler created the film to showcase a gay relationship between Charlton Heston and Stephen Boyd's character. Ergo, William Hurt would not be the first actor to win an Oscar for playing a gay character. Anyone who knows anything about Ben-Hur is well aware of the controversy over the sexuality of the lead. https://english.elpais.com/culture/2022-04-15/how-charlton-heston-played-a-gay-man-without-knowing-it-in-ben-hur.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeanGreyForever (talk • contribs) 18:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Hell yeah, I remember seeing that on TCM when I was in high school. And Boyd and Wyler said, "Don't tell Heston a thing about it!" Because he'd freak out.

But there's a huge difference in being queer-coded and being an openly gay character whose sexual orientation is not buried or suppressed in the film, and therefore unabashedly known to voters/audiences.

That being said, I guess it would make more sense to let Brando represent, since he came-out as bisexual, rather than let who played a character, i.e. Hurt and Swank, since I know you're referring to the infoboxes.--Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 18:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

But one could not be an openly gay character back in the 50s so the fact that a major protagonist like that could be queer coded (and thus as close to being openly gay as possible) is still significant. In that case, it would mean it should also be noted for its significance. But by that same logic, almost every role is a first in something which is why I go back to my argument that first, the captions should only talk about what the actor brought that was new and significant, not what the role brought and represented. And also that much of this information probably does not belong in the first place in the captions.

I don't know if Brando ever came out openly or if he was just outed by others or after his death, but about half the actors in the first half of the list have more or less been outed by others after their deaths which is why I don't put much weight in who was the first gay actor to win. I'm pretty sure Charles Laughton would qualify and I think he was officially outed after death. JeanGreyForever (talk) 19:01, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Brando first discussed his sexuality openly, while alive, shortly after filming The Godfather, so mid-'70s actually.

In 1976, Brando said in an interview with a French magazine: “Homosexuality is so much in fashion, it no longer makes news. Like a large number of men, I, too, have had homosexual experiences, and I am not ashamed. I have never paid much attention to what people think about me.”

Laughton was definitely after death, yeah. Lanchester spilled the beans about being barren.

Also, Gielgud and Guinness both had cottaging scandals. But the latter was smart enough to tell Scotland Yard his name was Herbert Pocket. Brilliant. --Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 19:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I didn't realize Brando outed himself. So many of them I take for granted since most of them never did confirm their own sexualities but it makes sense that Brando didn't care. I've heard rumors about Newman and Tom Cruise having an affair as well.

That's what I thought about Laughton. Burt Lancaster is another one who was more or less known. Ironically enough, William Hurt's role was supposed to go to Lancaster but he had to pull out after rumors about his sexuality came out or so I've heard.

I knew Gielgud was more or less confirmed but I've only heard rumors about Guinness. And I've also heard that he had inclinations but never acted on them, although your story clearly contradicts that lol. JeanGreyForever (talk) 19:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, because some have speculated that Hepburn/Tracy were gay/bisexual, via Scotty Bowers, and much of his stuff has been confirmed. Regardless, there's even Gaynor. And we've got Laughton and Tracy before Brando. So, yeah. Really, I suppose, until we get a properly OUT winner--perhaps this year with Colman Domingo? Too soon to declare. But that'll be the time to cheer.

Lancaster I always just thought was gay-friendly. Newman too. Until recently. I was interested in the LGBT page, but it needs a lot of research. And once I started, one closet door closes, 10 more fly open. Who knew?! Olivier I always had a hunch was bi. Always figured it more concrete than that though.--Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 20:17, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Hepburn/Tracy are still massively debated to this day like Cary Grant. Can be very hard to determine what's real and what they really were, although I've heard lots about Hepburn. Tracy I think was bi because there are plenty of stories about his womanizing as well.

Burt Lancaster has a lot of stories out there. Same with Laurence Olivier. I'm pretty sure Vivien Leigh has journals where she commented on his sexual behavior. He's more confirmed than she is because there are some stories about her as well although not as concrete. Clark Gable used to grant sexual favors to men to get his start so it's hard to know how to label him. Yul Brynner I'm pretty sure has some stories as well. I don't remember about David Niven or not. I think in his case, Errol Flynn hit on him and Niven was uncomfortable so he wasn't.

For actresses, besides Gaynor and Hepburn, there's also Claudette Colbert and Joan Crawford and maybe some rumors about Leigh as I mentioned above. There are several contemporary actresses who have major rumors like Julie Andrews, Jessica Chastain, Cate Blanchett, and Sandra Bullock. And Susan Sarandon is openly bi now, or I think pansexual. JeanGreyForever (talk) 20:39, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Ooh, interesting, re: last paragraph. Yeah, read that about Gable. And McQueen! Hard to really count them, or know how much they enjoyed it. Some say McQueen did, most say no. All say Gable did it for the pay, but had no issue with it--until that whole Cukor/GWTW scuffle, right? Haha.

Ahh. Good times. And also bad times. And weird times. I would've preferred Montgomery Clift, James Dean, Rock Hudson times. Although I'm a James D., so..I would've lost my name to him. For a price. Would've been a happy trophy boyfriend for all of them. Speaking of which, can't forget Perkins and Tab. Shame that a studio ruined that; not sure if I buy him being bi, or "fake it till you (don't) make it".

Anyway, since you did a lot of work, I did my fair share of input here. Just to at least temporarily reduce that overlength. We can alternate guys if necessary. I've removed the Russian/Welsh stuff. Removed the 2nd/3rd Oscar 'other category' thing. I did have to trim some length above heads and below collarbones, but I promise they weren't butchered. Not sure if you'll mind, but I chose Cliff's already cropped photo that I saw. Is that fine with you?

Swapping Fonda's Navy pic to a more Hollywood pic. In color, but he looks great. Rex was super long, so his was an easy crop without being a floating head, still full torso. The rest were minor trims. And we have a full 60, minus Malek.

So I guess Duvall and Malek are the on deck actor; we'll say, Roberts and Woodward for actress? --Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 21:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with Steve McQueen's personal life much so I wouldn't know. I know Newman is another one who has widely been rumored to have been bi and Woodward still gets flack online for censoring his history. Rumors are that Newman and Tom Cruise had an affair.

The 1930s seems to be the era where most actors (mainly actresses) leaned both ways. The 50s seemed better about gay/bi men, including the ones you all listed. I don't remember if Tony Perkins considered himself to be gay or bi but there's also Roddy McDowall. And Rock Hudson and Tab Hunter both had the same agent.

I saw that Lee Marvin's caption has a mention of him being in a double role. Is he the first Oscar winner to win for a double role? I can't remember off the top of my head. Cliff Robertson looks stoned in the new picture with the filter but that's okay. The changes are all great.

If you really like Rami Malek, you can keep him on reserve. You certainly don't have to do it for me since from your earlier posts, it seemed you wanted an excuse to get rid of him so don't feel like you need to bring him back. Duvall and Hackman would be on my reserve list just because they are the most prestigious actors and Hackman's win was for a Best Picture win. I know you said earlier you love The French Connection (and hearing that you are 1/4 French, maybe that's also a reason).

For actresses, I agree with Roberts as reserve. I'd put Reese Witherspoon or Renee Zellweger with her on reserve (all the R's). All of them have functioned as America's Sweethearts at one point or another, which is why I was also in favor of Ginger to be added and your choice of Sandra. JeanGreyForever (talk) 21:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, I forgot Roddy McDowall. He's cute too. Robbed of an Oscar nod. He can join in on the "pool parties". Yes! Regarding Marvin. Haven't seen it yet, but know about it. For playing such a lascivious villain, you wouldn't expect him to be one of the most outspoken, earliest champions for gay marriage. All the more endearing.

But that little tidbit about the dual roles was short, and unique--didn't deduct from spacing, so I didn't think you would mind if I kept it in. Lol, he does look stoned, but I'm glad you're cool with it all, and we're all good with everything. Now I guess the mission will be: Reduce caption commentary on the supporting page so that it balances out with lead. We can probably squeeze back in Anne Baxter on one; Jack Palance on the other. It'll be worthwhile. Feel free to chime in and collaborate some more.

If we were to ever bump Hackman and Zellweger up to lead (freeing up even more space in supporting), it'll probably be easier picking a lady. From the men? Who am I left with..Spacey?

Oh right, since you're not fussing about Malek, forget that. Terrific. Nah, my French heritage is probably why I'm the only friend at the wedding who will eat escargots.

Saw that about Shirley, cool good. But I'll crop carefully. --Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 21:59, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I think Roddy and Tony were a couple until Tony dumped him. I don't think Tony was ever a very good bf from all the stories I heard about him. Roddy was considered the nicest guy in Hollywood who everyone genuinely liked and he had no enemies. About Marvin's role being different from how he was in real life, that's a lot like Robert Ryan. Used to play every despicable character in the movies but in real life, he was a champion for civil rights and considered the most tolerant and liberal guy around.

I don't have a problem with the mention of Lee Marvin in a dual role but I wasn't sure if it was just there as a fun fact or as a historic first. I haven't looked at the supporting pages but I agree with bringing back Anne Baxter and Jack Palance. Baxter said out of all her roles, The Razor's Edge was the only good one. And Palace has that iconic one-handed pushups moment when he won the Oscar and people seem to respond to that. Yes, I'd love to engage with you more in future collabs. This is fun.

I haven't seen the supporting page so if you feel you need more room there, I think bringing over Hackman and Zellweger to leads would be a good idea. For Spacey, I did feel he was missing but I'm also aware of the fact that he doesn't have a very good rep these days and I was afraid of offending anyone. That being said, his past history fortunately or unfortunately doesn't invalidate his Oscar win so it can be argued that hiding him away isn't any better.

Yes, Malek is not one that I feel needs to be included and I was thinking about removing him myself but I thought he might have fans. Clearly not on here lol. I've never had escargot before but I've slowly become more open to the idea so perhaps one day. 2601:2C3:8380:1780:C4E2:E80F:F521:F087 (talk) 22:46, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Poor Roddy. (Poor Tony too. Victims of the times. They all were. Can't blame them!)

Speaking of Victim, did you ever see that film? If not, excellent. Bogarde and Syms ought to have gotten Oscar noms. At least BAFTA was awake, lol.

Aww, cool, I'm glad. And likewise! I agree it's been fun thus far. So yeah, I think I recall counting..54 on each supporting page. So we'll definitely get Baxter and Palance in. And tbh, I agree about Spacey, for better or worse, it's history, it exists. Just like D.W. Griffith's infamous film. Can't erase it, but can't erase the impact either. So he probably ought to be #2 then. --Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 23:31, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I feel bad for Tony too. I think his marriage was not the best and his wife was clueless about him from what I remember or she chose to be anyway.

I have seen Victim although I found Bogarde's character a bit unsympathetic, driving his lover, Peter McEnery, to suicide. But that was part of the charm for Bogarde that he always played this really flawed individuals who were more human for those flaws. I don't think Bogarde ever got any Oscar noms.

This has been fun because you've made it fun! And you seem to have very good taste. People sometimes act as though Hollywood alone has predators and we shouldn't glorify their works whether as actors, directors, producers, etc. but there are creeps like that in every industry and profession. We don't give up canned foods or groceries just because there's probably a creep behind those as well. Well said about Birth of a Nation.

BTW I noticed that Halle Berry's pic is of her from the late 90s. Most of the modern actors who won have pics from the 2010s or around the last decade. Hers stood out to me just now when I was looking at it and I wonder if maybe she should have a more recent pic? What do you think?

Also I noticed that Emma Thompson is still listed as having won her 1st Oscar, whereas the captions for Ingrid Bergman, Meryl Streep, Jessica Lange, and Cate Blanchett (am I missing anyone) are amended to not mention Oscars in other categories anymore so should someone go ahead and change Emma's to follow suit? JeanGreyForever (talk) 01:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm replying in backwards order, don't mind me. I was mending the Best Actress cropping a lot more slowly because I felt drowsy this evening, heh. But I did notice and removed that. And fixed the removal of other extraneous captions, per agreement. Just Halle being first black winner, Marlee first deaf/youngest, Tandy oldest, Luise consecutive, and iirc w/o checking, that's it. Oh, and Loren/Cotillard for languages. Speaking of languages, for supporting: Del Toro and Cruz--before I started editing all these, they were already, or at least Cruz was, noted w/ the Spanish tag. I have seen her film, but haven't seen his yet, regrettably. Once other irrelevant captions are gone, IF agreed, do we want to say "first Spanish-language role to win" for each of those, even though it's perhaps only partial? I'm thinking no, because that then allows the gray area for Quan and Yeoh, and off we go again, amirite?

Hmmm, so find a pic of Halle maybe with longer hair you mean. Sure, not opposed. I quite like the pic that's there, quality-wise. Smile, happy glow, royal blue blouse, so adds color to the scrolling lol. Which we can still factor into this. I often do! Try not to make it too drab. But sure, open to suggestions.

Awww thanks. I try. Sometimes I get attached to things, but I've gotten much better than I used to be with collaborating and compromising and I think we did an excellent job working things out. I also think you helped me. Because initially, I WAS aiming to avoid all that nationality tagging. But once you allow one, then I tell myself well--if I mention ____ being Spanish, I have to mention ____ being Italian, and so forth. And suddenly, I'm going backwards. This way, they still get some valuable links to informative lists that are worthwhile, and the other stuff--that kinda stuff, they would learn on actors' pages anyway.

Haha. True, yes, he was big on flawed, tortured characters. Peter McEnery! I was about to mention him, but wasn't sure if you even knew his name. He's adorable. I wanted to hug him. Tragic character. Yeah. I love British kitchen sink & '60s swinging mod music and so forth. Obsessed. Ugh. One day, I will visit....One day. I hope. By the way, we can return to yours or my talk page now if you'd like since we're kinda back to casual chat at this point.--Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 02:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

That's all right that you're responding in a different order. Hope you were able to get some rest. I've seen both Cruz and Del Toro in their movies. If you like Catherine Zeta-Jones, that might be an incentive to watch Del Toro's Traffic, since she has a big part in that. I wouldn't be surprised if she narrowly missed a Best Supporting Actress nomination for that. Tbh, I don't remember how much English he used in his movie. I think it was mostly Spanish for his scenes but there was a little English as well. Cruz was more mixed. Her dialogue was mainly Spanish but she had a lot of English as well especially during the middle of her movie. Since those are English-language Hollywood movies that just happen to feature a lot of Spanish, but not purely Spanish, I think it might be safer not to mention the languages for them. Like you said, that would mean a lot of other performances would need to be adjusted as well like for Yeoh and Quan.

It's a pretty picture of Halle but it dawned on me that everyone else has a pic where they are older or at least a pic from after their Oscar win but Halle's is from before. She has lots of pics on her page (and the long hair does suit her as well as the short), so whichever you feel works best.

The nationality tag can be interesting but it can become a problem when you start to mention one and then you have to keep mentioning everyone else's. And as mentioned before, it gets trickier when you have the foreign-born Brits like Leigh, de Havilland, and Fontaine. I think the balance is good right now with the major descriptors being included, like first black winner, oldest or youngest winner, etc. because those are heavily hyped up in the media as well, rather than the more random ones like Yul Brynner being Russian.

I had a major crush on Peter McEnery (so did Hayley Mills it seems since he was her first kiss, onscreen and I think offscreen as well). Which is why I was not very sympathetic towards Bogarde's character in Victim for letting him die so soon lol. I wanted him on the screen for longer than 10 minutes. I especially love Servant though with Bogarde and James Fox. Hopefully you can visit the UK one day since you want to so much! And oh yes, I suppose we're cluttering up this page with casual conversation lol so that must be quite a read for the others. Let's definitely continue on your or mine page. I have no preference if you have one. 76.30.174.168 (talk) 05:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Also there was an error with Shirley MacLaine's position. Don't know if you saw, but I went ahead and fixed it so she's showing up properly again. JeanGreyForever (talk) 21:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)