Talk:Accuracy International Arctic Warfare/Archive 1

Archive 1

Merging, take II

Given that the original merge was suggested almost a year ago, and the general consensus seems to be favourable, I'm going to go ahead and change Arctic Warfare and L96 to redirects to this page. FiggyBee 17:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Civilian Use

Where can you buy this, and for how much, and what Scope would give me the maximum distance?

Overall, the total price of that may be what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thecutnut (talk • contribs) 09:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Replied to your query on your page. Francis Flinch (talk) 19:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Maximum effective range

600m? Not likely. The range of the rifle is more than that, though you need a more powerful scope than 6x42. Even pessimistic range estimates (for the 7.62mm version) list it as 800m. Even WP's Sniper page(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper) lists kills at 860m for the standard L96 7.62mm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geoff B (talk • contribs) 23:32, 6 April 2006

Er, yeah. That's what the article says; 800m (in the infobox), 600m with that particular scope. FiggyBee 03:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Rejigged that sentence. Geoff B 01:34, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

It depends which one you've bought. The AI AW 16" suppressed to 28" can only fire up to 600 meters, but the 26" barrel can fire up to as far as 1100 meters. Thecutnut (talk) 09:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

What does this have to do with arctic warfare?

Besides the name of the product line, there is no mention of warfare in an arctic setting. Is is just a name that AI came up with for their products, or does it actually have something to do with the purpose of the weapons? 99.251.230.51 (talk) 18:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It is a nod to the winter conditions in Sweden, who pushed for the development of the rifle. D.E. Watters (talk) 21:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

L96 Cartridges

As you can see I've add some calibre to the L96 Cartridge part so don't erase it because it's true if you don't trust me go on www.world.guns.ru you'll see that I don't lie.

That might be a matter of opinion, since there are also sources on the internet that distinguish and discuss several variants of the AI AW rifle system. It will be hard to objectively judge the right or wrong of a point of view regarding this matter. By the way the article states the "arctic warfare" nomenclature emerged after the L96A1 was fielded by the UK. The magnum chambered variants (7mm Rem. Mag. .300 Win. Mag. and .338 Lap. Mag.) already have a separate Wikipedia article. Both articles refer to each other. Several other AI AW variants also have separate articles, so it seems Wikipedia opted for a series of articles regarding the AI AW rifle system. --Francis Flinch (talk) 08:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

°C °F

-40 °C is not -40 °F--88.153.8.12 (talk) 20:59, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Read the Celsius and Fahrenheit articles and convert -40 °C and -40 °F and you will find out -40 °C = -40 °F. You can also look on the dial of the thermometer image in the Fahrenheit article and see that both temperature scales happen to coincide at that point.--Francis Flinch (talk) 08:34, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Merging

The page itself says that the British designation for this is the L96A1. The article for L96 already exists, making this article a duplicate. I propose merging this with L96, then deleting this article and making it a redirect to L96. Thoughts? Surgo 00:01, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Hello! I agree with the idea of combining some these AI rifle pages. In this specific case though, the rifles are different, or rather, enough that it is not really worth it. The AW is a different, improved version of the original L96 (the AI PM rifle). I have however, merged the L96A1 page (which is the same rifle as the AW). Ve3 23:18, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I also agree, as of now there are actually three articles dealing with pretty much the same rifle L96 (Arctic Warfare's grandfather). What do you think about merging Arctic Warfare with this article? They're the same rifles, their is no broad difference is context really - the only difference is that Arctic Warfare brings up the rifle's history (although uncomfirmed). --DMichel 14:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree. The page Arctic Warfare is explaining what that group of rifles are. The actual page on the L96A1 is a type of rifle pretaining to that definition. Lkegley9 05:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The information on Arctic Warfare could easily be merged into this article, perhaps as a new 'History' section. I think you could also make a case for merging L96, Accuracy International AWP, Accuracy International AWM, Accuracy International AW50F, and Accuracy International AW AE FiggyBee 06:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've copied over what information was on Arctic Warfare that wasn't on this page, as well as tidying up the page generally (split "history" into "history" and "design", and rearranged "variants" into some sort of logical order). What do you think? FiggyBee 08:08, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

There are two articles: "Accuracy International Arctic Warfare" and "Accuracy International AWM" now called "Arctic Warfare sniper rifle". One of the articles must be revamped or merged with an article covering the product range of Accuracy International while the other should concentrate completely on the platform and all variants describing and distinguishing between them. Also this article contains info on the AS50 which is a completely different semi-automatic platform from the same company. I hope someone could just confirm this. L96, G22 etc are just names giver to it by the armed forces and hence must not be used int the title name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RKKarnad (talk • contribs) 08:33, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Nomenclature Confusion

British service designations are not the same as US designations. Whereas the M16 led to the M16A1, and so on, British designations start at L(number)A1. There was no L96; the original designation was L96A1. Jane's Infantry Weapons 1986 clearly states that the AI PM was adopted as the L96A1. If you will note, this predates the existence of the Arctic Warfare model. However, the AW is reportedly in use with the SAS in a counter-terrorism role as the L118A1. Likewise, there is no L115; the AWM in British service is the L115A1. --D.E. Watters 18:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up. With my last edits I tried not to change the content only the format (headings, new infobox etc.). One thing I didn't have time to figure out was the correct wikilink for 7 mm Remington Magnum. I had a quick look at the list/category of pistol and rifle calibres in Wiki and wasn't sure which it was (if any)? --Deon Steyn 09:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Somewhat related to this topic, the picture halfway down the article is stated as displaying "An L98 in service with the British Army", but no reference to the designation is found anywhere else in the article, and it's also out of line with the naming conventions clarified here. I can only assume it was meant to refer to an L96A1 and I'm changing it, but if anyone knows better, please do correct. --Carcer 17:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

First, yes, all British designations have A1 at the end, whereas the American system is to start with nothing and have A1 be the second variant. Second, where did the L118 designation come from? The list of L designations says that the L118 is an artillery piece, with no mention of a rifle with the same designation, and I'm getting the same results searching outside of Wikipedia. Everywhere other than this page says that the original PM and the AW both have the L96 designation, while the AWM is the L115. Alex T Snow (talk) 06:31, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Merging suggestion proposed since August 2012

Created discussion section after above merging proposal by user ‎71.181.32.89.

Opposed - The various Accuracy International models and their variants often have separate Wikipedia articles, see {{Accuracy International}}.--Francis Flinch (talk) 07:38, 30 August 2012 (UTC) Strongly In Favor - This, and the rest of the "variant articles" amount to nothing more than using Wikipedia as a promotional catalog of past or current offerings by the company. This sets an appalling precedent that needs to be stricken down. Far older and (albeit subjectively) more famous gunmakes such as Winchester, Remington, and Colt do not have this kind blatantly promotional content. Everything should be merged with the main company article and then reduced to their basic elements. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:52, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

SuggestBot suggested I complete this merge, but I'm holding off due to the disagreement here. I've tried to research the issue. Based on the manufacturer's website, it appears to me that all of their rifles are variations on the same original design, which they call the AW. The website lists three primary lines: AX, AT, and AX50, which sounds like a .50 variant of the AX rifle. This article says the PM was the original rifle, and goes on to list AW and AX variants, along with an AE variant which I can't find on the website (maybe it's discontinued). Here's what the user manuals say:

• The AXMC sniper rifle is an evolution, which builds on Accuracy International’s established family of highly successful AW rifles. A bolt-action single shot rifle with free-floating barrel and a magazine capacity of ten rounds fulfils the need for a highly accurate long range sniper rifle. Like the AW series, all AX rifles utilise an aluminium chassis system, which ensures insensitivity to temperature and humidity, thus ensuring a constant zero. [1]
• The AX308 sniper rifle is an evolution, which builds on Accuracy International’s established family of highly successful AW rifles. A bolt-action single shot rifle with free-floating barrel and a magazine capacity of ten rounds fulfils the need for a highly accurate long range sniper rifle. Like the AW series, all AX rifles utilise an aluminium chassis system, which ensures insensitivity to temperature and humidity, thus ensuring a constant zero. [2]
• The AT308 sniper rifle is an evolution, which builds on Accuracy International’s established family of highly successful AW and AX rifles. A bolt-action single shot rifle with free-floating barrel and a magazine capacity of ten rounds fulfils the need for a highly accurate long range sniper rifle. Like the AW series, all AT rifles utilise an aluminium chassis system, which ensures insensitivity to temperature and humidity, thus ensuring a constant zero.[3]

And so on. While there are a number of Wikipedia articles on AI rifles they don't highlight differences between the models. There are a variety of calibers, stocks, finishes, and so on. Can anyone point to any significant differences between them? Does any secondary source compare and contrast the models? If not, I'd vote in favor of merging all the AI rifles into one comprehensive article. Rezin (talk) 23:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The PM was the model that started the line. The above 3 current lines differ from their predecessors. Essential parts have been redesigned/strengthened with the result that the parts compatibility between the AX and AT rifles and the previous rifle generations has been lost. Merging the information of all articles in one article would make this a very long article.--Francis Flinch (talk) 10:44, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

It may be true that some parts have been redesigned over the years - I don't know what source we have for that. When I look at articles like Ford Crown Victoria I see it covers many generations of the vehicle despite the fact that numerous parts were redesigned and are incompatible between model years. Can you imagine if car articles had separate sections or articles for each minor variation? One issue with article length is that the current articles on AI rifles repeat information. A single comprehensive article could discuss the main working of the AI rifles once, and then list what makes each individual model unique. So a combined article wouldn't simply be as long as the total of each article. Also, some "models" covered in this article have so little difference it hardly seems worth even giving them their own subsection. For example: "AWF (Arctic Warfare Folding) AW model with side-folding polymer stock." That's just bloat. Getting back to my question above, is there a source which discusses the changes you mention? Rezin (talk) 18:57, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I know of no source that describes the elaborate redesign history of this rifle line. It probably has to be laboriously constructed, meaning copying lots of relevant text, references, info boxes, user lists, etc. You do not have to be an expert to understand that a current 20 mm diameter bolt will not fit in an older 19 mm diameter receiver etc. giving up the modular design compatibility between rifle generations. Such for military arms not very usual but technically understandable changes are however mentioned and referenced in the article(s). Please understand that sniper rifles are not mass produced like normal military rifles and involve a lot of hands on work and testing before leaving the factory. This means customers can fairly easily order production runs featuring modifications.--Francis Flinch (talk) 09:22, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

One of the manuals I read (maybe they all say it) says that one of the mandatory safety steps before firing is to check that the receiver and bolt (IIRC) have matching serial numbers. So, as far as they're concerned, even different rifles within a model or production run are not interchangeable. However interchangeability is not the standard for having separate articles. Also, our intended readers are not the very few actual users of these rifles, who should be reading much more technical and authoritative manuals, etc., most of whom probably had them purchased by a superior officer. These articles should inform the general public.

To recap, there's no reference which actually says these rifles are significantly different. The company's own publications say they are all evolutionary designs from a common ancestor. The only distinct difference you've highlighted is that some have 20mm bolts while others have 19mm bolts, a factor which can be described in less than 10 words. I still don't see any reason to cover every little difference with a separate article. It seems to me that it'd be more helpful to readers to put them all in one article in which the differences and similarities are described systematically. I'm not going to push this further because you appear to be strongly opposed, even if you haven't communicated a clear reason for your opposition. Rezin (talk) 17:28, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I am not strongly opposed if someone is willing to systematically do the work without loosing information. The AX series paragraph already deals with some evolutionary steps of Accuracy International bolt action rifles. Regarding matching receiver and bolt serial numbers; the AX MC rifle has been designed to allow the user to easily change the calibre of the weapon. For magnum calibres (.338 Lapua Magnum and .300 Winchester Magnum) the bolt body, magazine and barrel must be replaced. For 7.62x51mm, an additional magazine converter must also be fitted within the magazine port to allow the use of an Accuracy International AX308 magazine. A single shroud/firing pin assembly is provided for each multi-calibre weapon system and must therefore be installed into the required bolt assembly as part of the conversion procedure. The AX MC manual however also states to check for corresponding serial numbers, but different bolts are needed to swap between the 3 chamberings or calibres since these 3 cartridges have very differing dimensions. On older models for example the barrels can be fairly easily exchanged by the user with an appropriate tool, which is desirable for active shooters since barrels wear out loosing accuracy and hence are expendable items. The actual users of these and alike rifles are generally competent regarding rifles and their maintenance since they get them issued and if not are trained to become competent or private shooting enthousiasts that generally take good care of their (very expensive) precision equipment.--Francis Flinch (talk) 19:33, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

You're obviously quite familiar with these rifles, which I'm not. I'm going to remove the "merge" tags for lack of consensus. However I'd encourage you to review all of the articles on AI rifles and see if you can improve them. You could probably do a better job than most other editors. Rezin (talk) 22:18, 15 January 2015 (UTC)