Talk:Action in Tarrafal Bay

Rename of Article

Dear Fellow Wikipedians! the article names was changed, as it was an ambush. scope_creep (talk) 10:53, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

And I've moved it back, because it wasn't. The defining feature of an ambush is that one side lies in wait for the other(see "ambush", at the OED); what happened here was Clyde made a surprise attack (unless you are suggesting the 4 U-boats ambushed the British sub?) If you aren't happy with the current title, I suggest you take it to WP:RM, preferably with a credible source to support your contention. Xyl 54 (talk) 01:29, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Xyl 54, bit of a silly rationale. And I've moved it back, because it wasn't., without providing contra evidence. Both the British and Germans referred to it as an ambush event in their documentation, written at the time, with varying aspects. There is documents on both sides. The Germans Erhard Maertens and Ludwig Stummel along with Donitz discussed it at length. From their side, it was essentially a pivot event, in that it kicked off huge investigation in 1941, that lasted months. It was referred as an ambush and with it came a whole bunch of updates to Enigma, which largely proved ineffective. On the British side there was consternation that it would have seen as a ambush, as more ships were were looking to be sent, but one was choosen in the hope it was to be seen by the Germans as a kind of casual improbable event. On the British side, who were in part reading Germans comms knew that if more destroyers were available, and dispatched, it would have informed Germany that their comms was been read, and were worried that Enigma was going to be replaced which was a big worry at the beginning of the war. I think the evidence is pretty clear that from the German side it was seen as ambush, whereas on the British it would could have been seen as ambush but efforts were made to make it more casual event. I think it is clear it is better with other title. scope_creep (talk) 08:39, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Scopecreep: First off, the rationale I gave is no sillier than the article names was changed, as it was an ambush:

Second, the "contra evidence" you asked for is there already, in the OED definition of ambush (n. "a military disposition consisting of troops concealed in a wood or other place, in order to surprise and fall unexpectedly upon an enemy; a strategic arrangement or trap"). If Clyde had arrived at Tarafal first, and lain in wait for the U-boats, that would have been an ambush: what happened was that she came on them outwith their expectation, taking them unawares; which is the definition of a surprise attack (see OED; "The act of assailing or attacking unexpectedly or without warning; the sudden attack (of an enemy) that is unprepared"). Otherwise the phrase "Tarafal Bay ambush" implies the U-boats were lying in wait for the Clyde; but you aren't claiming that, are you?

OTOH your assertion that the British and Germans referred to it as an ambush event and that There is documents on both sides does require evidence (ie. that they specifically refer to this event as an ambush); otherwise you are asking us to believe that a bunch of military men were misusing a term that has a precise military meaning.

As for the rest of your comment, about how the British and Germans regarded the significance of the event, is irrelevant to this discussion, which is on what they called it; and you repeatedly referring to it as an ambush doesn't make it so. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:50, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi Xyl 54, I cant change the facts. You have the wrong context. It was Clyde suddenly appearing, and giving possible truth to the lie that it was ambush. It wasn't, as all the German comms had already been read. The British didn't want to give the appearance of it being and ambush. They wanted it to casual chance, entirely random. That is the context. Whereas the Germans, they actually thought it was a ambush, and kicked off the 1941 major investigation. So the context is all ambush. As soon as I get stuff together in one place, I will put a notice up at WP:RM.scope_creep (talk) 00:03, 27 September 2018 (UTC)