Talk:Adam Aircraft Industries

Claims about a lawsuit

I have just commented out a new section that has been added by an anon. It relates to a lawsuit against the company. I can't find anything on Google. Can anyone substantiate the information? User:Noisy | Talk 21:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

There is indeed nothing on Google i can find either. Without a reference to back it up, we can't include it; and I'd be surprised that it hasn't been publicised if it was indeed true. --Robert Merkel 22:35, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I have checked through Avweb, probably the most credible news source on the industry and can't find anything there either. Also Rick Adam is no longer with the company. Lacking any evidence I will deleted this section. - Ahunt (talk) 11:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Categorization

I propose that the category "Companies based in Englewood" be replaced with "Companies based in Colorado". I have previously made this edit, but it was quickly reverted by another editor. In a good faith effort to avoid inciting another edit war, I'll simply add "Companies based in Colorado" at this time. Hopefully this action will not be accused of being vandalism or of degrading the article, as my previous edits were. I'm also hopeful that, since it is fairly self-evident that the company is located in Colorado, that this action won't be accused of being original research.

That being said, please consider the following reasons for the category replacement:

1. "Companies based in Englewood" is a "redlined" category. This category has not even been created.

2. There are at least six unique place names in the United States alone with the name "Englewood". This category is ambiguous.

3. It seems to me that a category "Companies based in XXX" should be reserved for countries, states or major cities. Englewood, Colorado has an employment population of only 23,500. By comparison, nearby Denver has nearly 537,000 jobs - over twenty times that number. Englewood is a rather obscure location to be having its own category for companies based there.

4. This is related to item 3. It seems to me that a category is only useful when there are at least a few dozen articles that can actually be categorized with it. Again, Englewood is hardly a major employment center and only a few articles can be categorized as "Companies based in Englewood". It simply isn't very meaningful or useful to readers.

Finally, regarding this specific article:

5. Aviation Technology Group uses Englewood, Colorado in its mailing address. However, the company is actually not located in the city; in fact, one must leave the city limits of Englewood and travel several miles through another city (Centennial, Colorado) in order to reach the company's location. Therefore, the category "Companies based in Englewood" is misleading. To correct this, a more suitable name for the category would be "Companies using Englewood in their mailing address". This category, however, would be even more obscure - and overly pedantic.

Faced with the choice of a redlined, ambiguous, obscure, useless and misleading category ("Companies based in Englewood") on the one hand, and a pedantic one on the other ("Companies using Englewood in their mailing address"), it seems the best choice would be to use neither.

"Companies based in Colorado" is an established category, is unmistakeable, is meaningful to readers and has several dozen applicable articles. It should be fully adequate to provide a geographical categorization for this article.

-- Watkinsian (talk) 21:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

AAI Acquisition

I would suggest that at the point when the new company, AAI Acquisition, makes its certification milestone for the A700 that a separate article be started on that company. If it were spun off before than and fail to produce any aircraft it would remain a small historical footnote, not really worthy of a separate article. - Ahunt (talk) 15:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• It seems to be no more than a legal shell separating AAI from the owners, nothing to write about.NVO (talk) 18:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking more if the company is renamed and/or moved, which is usually the case in these buy-outs and restarts. A good example is True Flight's purchase of the remains of Tiger Aircraft. In this case the company will have a new name and be located in a new place. The Tiger article will remain as a historical record of a manufacturer that went out of business and there will be a new article about True Flight at that point. Right now TF is just a section in the Tiger article because they haven't produced anything yet. If they do I think they merit their own article. I agree that if AAI Acquisitions continues the company under the same name, Adam Aircraft, and the same location, then it should stay in the same article. - Ahunt (talk) 20:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I would also add the same goes for the new owners, Triton Aerospace. They have moved locations and have a new company name, so if they actually produce any aircraft then they should get a new article and this one closed out for history. - 19:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Location

I was asked to keep and eye on and review the constant changes on this article, and taking into consideration the comments made I have changed the location in to a simpler version which make it clear the that the legal company address is different to the companies physical location. The article mentions Centennial Airport and anybody that interested can follow the link to find out more about the location. Please dont change this statement without further discussion on this page. Thank you. MilborneOne (talk) 17:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Watkinsian seems to be hellbent on removing useful information on the location of this company and replacing it with non-useful information. I have just re-inserted the name of the airport where the company has its offices and production facility. Rather than removing information once again, please comply with the above admin's request, discuss and gain consensus before changing this information. - Ahunt (talk) 20:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

A quick check of the company website shows that their address is AAI Acquisition Headquarters, 12876 E Adam Aircraft Cir, Englewood, CO 80112 and that this address has taxiway access to the Centennial airport, according to the linked map on that page. - Ahunt (talk) 22:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Ahunt appears to be "hellbent" at reverting any change I make to the article.
There are several problems with the following sentence: "The company's legal address is Englewood, Colorado, although its headquarters is at Centennial Airport, in the Denver-Aurora Metropolitan Area of Colorado."

1) The location in the infobox and the locational information in this sentence do not coincide at all;

2) The use of the word "legal" begs some kind of reference;

3) "Englewood, Colorado" is not an address. It is a city (or in this case, a postal designation) which may appear IN an address, but in and of itself, it is not an address;

4) What is the purpose of the word "although"? "Although" would be used if the sentence read "the company's "legal" address is A, although its physical address is B", but we are not providing a "physical" (or other) address. "Centennial Airport, Colorado" is not an address, nor would it appear IN an address.

5) The sentence should read "headquarters are" - subject-verb agreement

6) Why does "of Colorado" need to follow "Denver-Aurora Metropolitan Area"? "Englewood, Colorado" already establishes what state we are dealing with.

I could attempt to make any number of constructive edits to deal with these problems, but I would be immediately reverted, criticized, censured or accused of vandalism. Watkinsian (talk) 23:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for joining us on the talk page. Okay I have read your list of complaints, but I don't see a proposal for new sentence to replace what is there. - Ahunt (talk) 23:21, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Since the standard for including information in Wikipedia is verifiability, based on reliable references, I have done some searching for references to resolve this issue. Here is what I have found:

1. The company lists their address as: AAI Acquisition Headquarters, 12876 E Adam Aircraft Cir, Englewood, CO 80112
2. The US Postal Service confirms that this is a valid address, including the Zip code.
3. Google maps also confirms that this is a valid address and also shows that it is not a remote address - the plant is actually located at that street address. Google satellite also shows that the plant is located at the Centennial Airport and has taxiway access to the airport runways from the back of the hangar.
4. Arapahoe County has a series of maps that show that the actual plant location address is located within Arapahoe County's boundaries.

From all this data I conclude the the Adam plant is located at the Centennial Airport, that the postal address is Englewood, Colorado and that the plant is located within Arapahoe County, which is in itself part of the Denver-Aurora Metropolitan Area. Therefore I don't see any problem with the article lead or the info box as it is written. All current statements are correct and there are no contradictions. I would suggest that to avoid doing this all again in the future that the refs I have linked above should be added. I am interested to hear what other editors have to say on this issue. - Ahunt (talk) 00:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

With regard to item 2) above, the address "12876 E. Adam Aircraft Cir.", the city "Centennial", and the state abbreviation "CO" can also be entered into the US Postal Service site referenced above, and the following will be returned:

Full Address in Standard Format

12876 E ADAM AIRCRAFT CIR

CENTENNIAL CO 80112-4549

Thus, the formulation of the address using "Englewood" is NOT the only postally valid formulation of the address.

With regard to item 4) above, that very same map also shows that the actual plant location address is nowhere near the City of Englewood, but immediately adjacent to the City of Centennial. In any case, editors have claimed in discussions on other pages that referencing maps is "Original Research".

Regarding your conclusions, the postal address is Englewood OR Centennial. True, the plant is in Arapahoe County, but the infobox and the article text should BOTH say this; i.e., the article lead and the infobox should not only present correct information, they should also present the SAME information.

The article previously contained two references from journal articles that establish the company's location as Centennial, Colorado. Other editors are not willing to accept the inclusion of these references, and insist that the location is Englewood, Englewood, Englewood. My position is that, at the very least, readers ought to know that any mention of "Englewood" in the article is a postal designation - not a reference to the city - and that the company is actually located miles and miles east of Englewood. Watkinsian (talk) 01:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

You can type Englewood, Centennial, and GREENWOOD VILLAGE into the search page and they all come up as acceptable. In the Zip code city serch typing 80112 yields:

Actual City name in 80112 ENGLEWOOD, CO Acceptable City names in 80112 CENTENNIAL, CO GREENWOOD VILLAGE, CO GREENWOOD VLG, CO Not Acceptable LONE TREE, CO

Their official address and the address they themselves published says Englewood,[1] and that is what is commonly used in the infoboxes of all the articles you are changing. Your same arguments have been used to change multiple other articles in the same way. I don't know what your problem is with Englewood, but you need to take it up with the local government that decided the area around the airport was not part of Centennial, not wikipedia. Wikipedia is not here to redress you issues with the post office, the two counties involved, the airport authority or the Inverness Business Park. All those entities use Englewood, not Centennial. --Dual Freq (talk) 03:06, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

You've done well at illustrating my point. Just because the U.S. Postal Service has assigned a number of city names to a certain ZIP code, doesn't mean that an address in that ZIP code is necessarily located in any of those cities. Just because a company has decided to use a particular city in its address, doesn't mean that it is actually located in that city. Wikipedia is here to present the facts - which are: yes, AAI uses "Englewood" in its address; however, this is a postal designation, because the Englewood city limits are seven miles to the west; and that the company's location borders the City of Centennial, which is a better indication of where the company is located, because it isn't seven miles away! Watkinsian (talk) 03:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that this article is about an aircraft manufacturer, not about the complex geographical boundary and Zip code anomolies of the Denver area.

I think the points that need to be reflected in the article are three in number:

1. The company uses an Englewood postal address
2. The company is located at the Centennial Airport
3. The company is physically located in Arapahoe County, which is in turn part of the Denver-Aurora Metropolitan Area

That is all readers of this aviation article need to know. Wikilinks will take them to more information on where these places are, if they care. - Ahunt (talk) 12:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

This has already been going on for over a year. See also Aviation Technology Group, IHS Inc., Air Methods, Jeppesen for other companies in the same area, all with Englewood addresses. They all should have Englewood as the location city= headquarters field and should list Englewood as their address without two sentences worth of explanation that includes scare quotes about where Englewood is and where Centennial is. Bottom line is that all these companies self-identify as Englewood and that's what we list even if Englewood is 100 miles away and some news articles refer to Centennial Airport as Centennial. I don't know what can be done to resolve this, but continually adding Centennial, Colorado to wikipedia articles is not going to move these companies into the city of Centennial. These same anomalies in addresses occur all over the country, but you don't see people from Rosemont, Illinois trying to put O'Hare Airport in Rosemont on wikipedia instead of Chicago or listing it as Cook County instead. These are all addressed Englewood, not "Centennial" and should say that. --Dual Freq (talk) 03:34, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it is clear that there is no consensus by the editors working on this article to make the changes proposed by User:Watkinsian, so I think the matter is closed. - Ahunt (talk) 12:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

So am I to ignore the same changes being made to the other articles by this same user? Aviation Technology Group, IHS Inc., Air Methods, Jeppesen for example. They are all in the same area and continually being claimed to be Centennial-based or adding scare quotes to Englewood despite that they self identify as Englewood. --Dual Freq (talk) 22:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately consensus on an issue on one specific article talk page really doesn't constitute consensus in another article. I am afraid you may just have to find the same consensus on each article, although this may constitute a way to proceed. - Ahunt (talk) 23:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

My edits are not attempting to "move these companies into the city of Centennial" but rather to provide Wikipedia readers with an accurate representation of where the companies are located, since the city that appears in the mailing addresses that they use does not. Just because there may be so-called "anomalies" does not mean that we ignore them. What is the purpose of an encyclopedia, if it isn't to explain and elucidate "anomalies"? (Should the article anomaly be removed from Wikipedia, and all that it links to?) The analogy is wrong - it's as if O'Hare Airport uses "Rosemont, Illinois" in its mailing address. All I'm saying, is that if "Rosemont" must be indicated as O'Hare's location because that's what O'Hare uses in its address, an article about O'Hare ought to explain that it isn't actually in Rosemont, but in Cook County / Chicago. Watkinsian (talk) 19:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

That is fine and the article currently reflects just that. - Ahunt (talk) 21:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

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