Talk:Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act/Archive 2

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Some article proposals to cover public vs. professional perception discussion

Ok. I wish to see this moving in some direction, so while I wait if we are to find consensus that scholarly critique might be under presented, I'm trying to gather some peer reviewed articles that might be of use if we are to include general public vs. academic/professional views discussion. I would like to find surveys covering the views of general public, treatment professionals, defense attorneys, prosecutors, judges, parole officer, and sex offenders and their family members. I would love to see many editors contributing on this. — James Cantor already expressed his willingness to help. I'm looking forward to it as he presumably holds more knowledge of relevant literature from his field of profession. Also, I wonder whether we should take this discussion to Category talk page, since this is about more than just this particular article, IMO. To counter possible accusations of POV-pushing/bias by cherry picking articles suitable for my position, I encourage anyone in favor of the current state of sex offender related articles (that is, not sufficiently reflecting the professional consensus which is and has been for years consistently negative) to find even one peer reviewed article supporting current sex offender laws.

Public Perceptions About Sex Offenders and Community Protection Policies

• Brief summary: 79% of general public wants ALL sex offenders to be subjected to community notification, 5,8% all offenders rated as high risk, 6,3% all but low risk offenders with no violent history and 1,6% wanted no community notification at all.
• When asked if one supports various sex offender policies "even if there is no scientific evidence showing that they reduce sexual abuse" 24% answered "Partially true" and 49% "Completely true".
• Also: "The hypothesis that community members hold inaccurate beliefs about sex offenders was supported."

Widening the Net: The Effects of Transitioning to the Adam Walsh Act’s Federally Mandated Sex Offender Classification System

• "The data indicate that, prior to reclassification, the majority of Ohio’s registrants (76% of adults and 88% of juveniles) were either not registered at all or were registered as “sexually oriented offenders” (the least restrictive management category) prior to reclassification. About 20% of adults and 5% of juveniles were classified as “sexual predators.” Following reclassification, this basic pattern was essentially reversed, with 13% of adults and 22% of juveniles placed in Tier 1, 31% of adults and 32% of juveniles placed in Tier 2, and 55% of adults and 46% of juveniles placed in the highest and most restrictive tier (Tier 3)."..."These data indicate, for example, that 59% of the 3,689 adults and 45% of the 271 juveniles who were not previously registered were placed into Tier 3 following the reclassification process. For those previously classified as “sexually oriented offenders,” 41% of adults and 43% of juveniles were assigned to Tier 3. Finally, 49% of adults and 36% of those previously classified as “habitual sexual offenders” were placed into Tier 3. Not surprisingly, more than 99% of adults and 98% of juveniles previously designated as “sexual predators” were placed into Tier 3."
• "Regarding the potential implementation barriers to meeting the federal classification standards, respondents raised a range of potential legal, operational, and fiscal considerations, with many expressing concern over the potential public safety impacts of supplanting established risk-based classification systems with a less discriminating system linked exclusively to conviction offense."
• "The SORNA tiers appear to classify a disproportionate number of offenders as high risk, placing increasing burdens—perhaps unnecessarily—on law enforcement personnel and fiscal appropriations"..."Net widening might ultimately compromise the efficacy of SORN as a viable tool in our efforts to prevent sexual violence by diverting attention and resources away from managing truly high-risk sex offenders in favor of capturing a larger pool of registrants."

Social Policies Designed to Prevent Sexual Violence The Emperor's New Clothes?

• "A survey of sex offenders in Florida indicated that housing restrictions increased isolation, created financial and emotional stress, and led to decreased stability. Such stressors are similar to the types of dynamic risk factors that have been associated with increased recidivism"
• "We do not intend to imply that sexual violence is not a serious problem, or that the aforementioned sex crime policies should never be utilized. The purpose of this paper is not to elicit sympathy or to advocate for sex offenders. We do not question the noble intentions of policy makers to create safer communities, nor do we wish to diminish the suffering of victims and their families. Clearly, sexual assault is an egregious and traumatizing crime which should not go unpunished. We simply suggest that social policies designed to prevent sexual violence will be most effective when they are informed by scientific data about sex offense patterns, recidivism, risk assessment, therapeutic interventions, and community management strategies... Naturally, following horrific and random acts of violence, particularly those against children, an outraged and frightened public demands solutions, and elected officials act quickly to serve their constituency. But hasty responses often result in laws that are not evidence-based in their development or their implementation, and the collateral consequences of such laws are poorly anticipated. The risks sex offenders pose to the public must be recognized as complex and not easily eliminated by blanket policies."
• "Some sexual perpetrators present a severe threat to public safety, and it is these most dangerous offenders that social policies should strive to control. Broad, overly inclusive policies, however, consume public resources while unnecessarily disrupting the stability of low risk, non-violent, and statutory sex offenders in ways that may diminish their likelihood of successful reintegration and even increase their risk."

--ViperFace (talk) 03:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

An excellent list! I would add that we need to apply caution in how the above it described on the mainpage: Public perceptions should be described as public perceptions, whereas the professional consensus can/should be described as encyclopedic information (that is, the actual facts).

Another RS I would recommend (and which is publicly available) is: http://www.atsa.com/pdfs/ppReasonedApproach.pdf

— James Cantor (talk) 13:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

You guys seem to be very specifically focused on degrading articles. That isn't going to happen here or anywhere else on this website.--MONGO 05:12, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reason to delete well-sourced text, and despite your increasingly antagonistic and disruptive edits and comments, you have presented no content-based or policy-based reasoning. Please see the comment I left for you at Talk:Sex offender.— James Cantor (talk) 11:27, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

The criticism section as it is now is remarkably tendentious, and takes a strong position in opposition to the act. Also, criticism sections are not a good idea. It might be better to work up something here on the talk page to be added if there's consensus. I've removed the criticism section. Tom Harrison ^Talk 11:39, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Whether the criticism (or any other section) is positive or negative is irrelevant. What matters is whether it matches the content and consensus of the RS's. The RS's are essentially unanimous in indicating the faults of the Adam Walsh Act. I can ask Tom only what one can ask any Wikipedian: What RS's or views are missing? Where is the evidence that the relevant text is out of line with the RS's? The problem we appear to be having here is that there are folks who simply don't believe that the status of the RS's is what it is. I appreciate that the status of the RS's is not what many folks in society have been led to believe, but if otherwise experienced Wikipedians are not convinced by a long series of RS's and an entire lack of dissenting RS's, what exactly is going on? — James Cantor (talk) 11:55, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Your argument of opposition to his act and other laws is well documented both in text here and in your own writings. While it's appreciated that you and Viperface may indeed be trying to show that there may be flaws with the law, its speculative at best. How do you demonstrate aside from opinion pieces that the changes made by this law, which merely strengthened already existing laws, that this strengthing is actually making it more likely that child molesters are more likely to commit that offense. I see nothing in those reports that show that this act led to an increase in child molestations. Such deeds may be on the raise, but nothing in the references you and others have provided prove this correlation.--MONGO 12:44, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

That is not addressing the issue: the content, the nearly unanimous content, of the RS's.

Regarding opinions, the relevant opinions of legitimate experts (such as editors of top journals of the field, official statements from state law enforcement, etc.) cited in well-regarded outlets (such as CNN and the BBC) are entirely legitimate to include. That includes me, but is most certainly not limited to me; just about every expert in this field (and whole professional associations) are of like opinion. (And was I myself cited somewhere on the page? I must have missed that.)

Moreover, the relevant RS's are not merely opinion, although it does include opinion (of experts). The relevant information includes numerous studies showing that this and related laws simply are not having the intended effects, and includes the ethical objections expressed by top civil rights groups (which, of course, cannot be evaluated by data):

• Agudo, S. E. (2008). Irregular passion: The unconstitutionality and inefficacy of sex offender residency laws. Northwestern Law Review, 102, 307–341.
• Berlin, F. S., Malin, M., & Dean, S. (1991). Effects of statutes requiring psychiatrists to report suspected sexual abuse of children. American Journal of Psychiatry, 148, 449–453.
• California Sex Offender Management Task Force. (2007). Making California communities safer: Evidence-based strategies for effective sex offender management. Retrieved from California State Association of Counties website: http://www.counties.org/images/users/1/Making California Communities Safer -Evidenced Based Strategies for Effective Sex Offender Management.pdf
• Duwe, G., Donnay, W., & Tewksbury, R. (2008). Does residential proximity matter? A geographic analysis of sex offense recidivism. Criminal Justice and Behavior, 35, 484–504.
• Kansas Sex Offender Policy Board. (2007). January 8, 2007 report. Retrieved from http://governor.ks.gov/files/Grants_Program/SOPBReport.pdf
• Tewksbury, R., & Jennings, W. G. (2010). Assessing the impact of sex offender registration and community notification on sex-offending trajectories. Criminal Justice and Behavior, 37, 570–582.
• Zandbergen, P. A., Levenson, J. S., & Hart, T. C. (2010). Residential proximity to schools and daycares: An empirical analysis of sex offense recidivism. Criminal Justice and Behavior, 37, 482–502.

Even if what you are saying were true (which it is not), it does not justify the suppression of the entire literature evaluating the effects of the Adam Walsh Act and related laws.

— James Cantor (talk) 13:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous! AGAIN: "I encourage anyone in favor of the current state of sex offender related articles (that is, not sufficiently reflecting the professional consensus which is and has been for years consistently negative) to find even one peer reviewed article supporting current sex offender laws." I have tried to find supporting views from Google Scholar, but I can't find any. Would you MONGO please contribute by digging up at least one peer reviewed article, there must be one. SHOW IT TO US! I deliberately picked some quotes from the studies I listed for your kind MONGO (that is people who DO NOT open the articles and read it, but go and revert edits and claim misleading/pov-pushing for any arbitrary WP:IDONTLIKEIT reasons. Who has asserted that AWA led to more child molestation? There are some reason why professionals fear that that might happen, and there are two papers I know of that have found statistically significant raise in recidivism sue to registries. Anyway. no one has said that in mainpage.

You're a "new" editor that can be easily demonstrated to be promoting one point of view. That is called Point Of View pushing. Other than that my comment above stands. You want me to prove a negative which of course is impossible to do I read little if any evidence that the strengthing of existing laws did anything other than inconvenience sex offenders. Of course all laws have flaws and surely a few innocent persons may have been unjustifiably penalized, but the weight you wish to give to that is excessive. It is impossible for me to look at your editing history and not see it for what it is.--MONGO 14:56, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

If you wish you may want to see [1]. There I explain some of my background and my edits. Anyway, if my editing can be seen as POV-pushing, what is going on here and other articles is POV-supressing, that is blocking the consensus opinoin of academics and civil right organizations. I'm sorry if my last post had rather agressive tone. I just find the reluctanse to accept the wide spread critique as part of this article unfounded, so I got frustrated. @Tom Harrison Criticism by definition is "expressing disapproval and of noting the problems or faults of a person or thing." Whether criticism supports some cause is irrelevant. --ViperFace (talk) 15:32, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Also, how may you claim that your comment above stand without any reply to James's point:"The relevant information includes numerous studies showing that this and related laws simply are not having the intended effects, and includes the ethical objections expressed by top civil rights groups"--ViperFace (talk) 15:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Some if not all of the citations are cherry picked. One simply has to look at the calls for repeal to note there is not broad criticism. There are tremendous bodies of work that show recidivism is a much more likely outcome than rehabilitation. The relevant information is that the intended effects are to notify people that are living near a sex-offender and this is a direct result of recidivism data. It's pecious to claim it isn't having the intended effect. Sex offender registries, lifetime probation and community notifications are an alternative to "life in prison" which is what the recidivist data shows as the appropriate alternative. --DHeyward (talk) 18:44, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Not only is there no evidence for any of that, there is nearly unanimous evidence for exactly the opposite. First, if there were cherry-picking going on, you (or anyone else) would be able to cite RS's that are allegedly being skipped. Not only has no one produced a single RS saying that the Adam Walsh Act (and related legislation) is effective, we are now seeing rather silly claims, such as Mongo asserting that google.scholar itself is doing the cherry-picking. Next, there does not, in fact, exist "tremendous bodies of work that show recidivism is a much more likely outcome." Instead, there exists a tremendous body of evidence showing that recidivism among sex offenders is generally 10-20% (lower than for any other type of crime). The RS's to that effect include:

• Soothill, K. (2010). Sex offender recidivism. Crime and Justice, 39, 145-211.
• Doren, D. M. (1998). Recidivism base rates, predictions of sex offender recidivism, and the “sexual predator” commitment laws. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, 16, 97-114.
• Harris, A. J. R., & Hanson, R. K. (2004). Sex offender recidivism: A simple question. Retrieved from https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/sx-ffndr-rcdvsm/index-eng.aspx
• Hanson, R. K., & Morton-Bourgon, K. E. (2005). The characteristics of persistent sexual offenders: A meta-analysis of recidivism studies. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 73, 1154.

In no jurisdiction has a registry, lifetime probation, or community notification been used to replace "life in prison sentences." The (comparatively few) offenders who receive life sentences (offenders with multiple victims and those who committed particularly violent offences) have never been reduced with the introduction of the Adam Walsh or similar act. Again, I challenge you (or anyone) produce RS's in support of what you're claiming. What you are asserting as just-so are merely urban myths. I appreciate that they might seem simply obvious to you, because these (mis-)statements are frequently circulated within a highly hysterical public. But if you actually do the fact-checking, you will find they are largely untrue.

— James Cantor (talk) 04:10, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I never said Google Scholar was doing any cherry picking...where did you get that from, Cantor?--MONGO 04:24, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

That is correct. I apologize, and I struck-through that part of my comment. It came from what ViperFace said (sarcastically) to point out that it is silly to claim that cherry-picking was going on, because the RS's showing the inefficacy of AWA is the what nearly all the google scholar hits are showing.— James Cantor (talk) 04:31, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

One critical argument that might be more appealing to Tom Harrison and MONGOis that strictly offense based AWA allows potentially dangerous offenders to escape the registration, when allowed to plea bargain down to non-registrable offense. This some times occurs in child molestation cases when prosecution does not want to force the child victim to re-live the events by testifying in court to avoid further traumatization. This argument takes different angle to ineficiancy. This also appears in academic literature, so the criticism is no all about catching the wrong people but also not catching some of those the law is supposed to catch. @DHeyward I understand that what you said apllies to those who have been determined to pose high risk with validated risk assesment tools. In Europe we put high-risk offenders in mental institution for life if necessary. Risk-assesment is superior to offense based registries in determining the risk of re-offense. This is well documented in literature. For what I have read, the overall recidivism of sex offenders is one of the lowest among offender groups, altough some subsets of sex offenders are known to pose considerable risk. AWA does not account for this. Also, the intented effect is compromized since AWA catches consensual teenage acts diluding the registries. It's needle in a heystack thing. AWA is adding more hay. This is often brought up by chid safety advocates. Prior AWA there was around 500 000 registrants and the latest numbers from 2012 says close to 800 000. Something is obviously wrong, the growth rate is staggering. To the cherry picking: did you read what I said above to counter such allegations in advance, since I knew some one is going to use that card? Also I wish to recieve a response, I don't like hit and run type of commenting. --ViperFace (talk) 18:57, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

The AWA is federal. States are free to incarcerate/hospitalize/release as necessary. AWA only makes it difficult for known offenders to move to unsuspecting places. The literature is pretty clear that sexual predilections are not curable (i.e. hospitalized for life is silly cover argument for dangerous sexual predator - there is no treatment plan or positive outcome - and the AWA allows for civil commitments which would be identical to hospital for life if need be. ). Your claim that consensual teenage acts are clogging the system is nonsense as they must first be convicted of a crime. 19 year olds that diddle with 14 year olds are still "teenagers" but the 19 year old will be charged and convicted of a crime. The assailant must be culpable for the act which usually means much older than the victim. Same age teenagers that consent are not charged in virtually every state. The lone exception may be the distribution of personal, private photos of underage children that are unlawfully shared. In that case, though, there is no consent given for that behavior and a conviction, as an adult, would be required. It's extremely rare. As for growth rate, it's a reflection of state convictions rather than different states requirements that vary from both reporting as well as locations available to live. The AQA only requires that convicted sex offenders register where they live. There is no condition on their choice of residence. Notifications requirements are still up to the states and state tiers can still be based on state laws - though reporting to feds is by conviction for obvious reasons as states can vary in assessment, but convictions are fairly uniform. --DHeyward (talk) 19:56, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Also, the notion that this act has anything to do with what a defendant does in court to reduce his penalty such as plea bargain is misplaced. To my knowledge, his act never specified that offenders could seek reduced penalty. If the argument is that some courts disagree with that act and therefore obfuscate justice by hearing and applying a reduced penalty to avoid compliance with the act then that's another story.--MONGO 20:08, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

It's not about what defendand does. It's just that determination of registration is solely based on offense under AWA, not the risk. Judge has no any discretion on it. Only one that has is the prosecutor through charging decision. Some times prosecution can't prove it's case and has to offer a plea. If risk assesment played any role, some defendands would be listed. The case of 19 and 14 year old is question of proportinality. It's comparable to speeding 5km/h vs. mounting a rocket on a car and ramming full throtle trough pedestrian street. In sentencing this is differentited, but with respect the registry, both are treated the same. I assume you know that registration is not part of the sentence under AWA, judge does not hand it. It is collateral consequence of being convicted under one of the listed offenses. That's why this happens: example, example2, example3. Federal government is pressuring those few states still aplying risk based systems, to adopt conviction based systems. The obvious problems arising from this change is covered in quote under one of the "cherry picked" studies I posted above. Please, read it. Further more AWA was made retroactive, meaning that consensual statutory rape case from the 80s cames back to hount people who are married with children to their "victim" and have served their court imposed sentences. High level victim right advocates like Patty Wetterling and John Walsh have criticised the law. How did NAMBLA plant a micro chip in their heads? The criticism is coming from all parties that are aware of the details of the law: The victim advocates, treatment professionals (Atsa), defence lawyers (NACDL), some judges, academics, sex offender management boards, ACLU, Human Right Watch and reformist groups presenting not only the offenders, but for their children and spouses. Only general public with no knoweledge of the details is widely supporting the law. Only registries not atracting such criticism are those aplying risk assesment tools and publicly listing only high risk offenders. These are also the states where registries have demonstrated some effectiveness. Too bad the U.S. government is cutting their fundung for practising demonstrably good and reasined public policy.Why must this criticism stay uncovered?ViperFace (talk) 22:23, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Some more peer-reviewed papers while working on consensus: First one is for DHeyward: not all sex offenders hold some deviant sexual predilections, population is heterogeneous. (As a side note, predilection doesn't equal compulsorily acting on it. Also, acting may be controlled trough behavioral therapy, we are not talking about homogenous pack of hungry wolves whether you like it or not)

Who are the people in your neighborhood? A descriptive analysis of individuals on public sex offender registries

• "We found considerable heterogeneity in the RSO population across multiple dimensions, contrasting the stereotypical views of sex offenders that permeate public perception. For instance, sex offenders are often described as a group of repetitive, compulsive, predatory and potentially violent abusers of young children (Levenson et al., 2007a; Lieb & Nunlist, 2008 ). Notwithstanding the limitations of our data analyses, we found a range of risk designations suggesting that policies should: 1) effectively differentiate risk levels among offenders using empirically derived methods; 2) provide front-line practitioners with sufficient latitude to adapt the terms of supervision, monitoring, and treatment according to individual risks and needs; and 3) furnish the public with the information necessary to distinguish between those RSOs who call for attention and diligence and those who present a lesser degree of risk. Offense titles as defined by the Adam Walsh Act are insufficient to determine an individual's relative threat to a community or to adequately inform law enforcement officers responsible for supervision and monitoring."

The Adam Walsh Act A False Sense of Security or an Effective Public Policy Initiative?

• "Using a sample of registered sex offenders in New York State, the current study examined the effectiveness of the Adam Walsh-tier system to classify offenders by likelihood of recidivism. Results indicated that the AWA falls short of increasing public safety."

Assessing the Impact of Sex Offender Registration and Community Notification On Sex-Offending Trajectories This one is also for DHeyward:

• "sex offenders recidivated (with a sex offense) at a rate of 6.5%. The only offender types with lower offense-specific recidivism rates were those originally arrested for homicide, kidnapping, and stalking. Not only did sex offenders have lower rates of offense-specific recidivism than nearly all other types of offenders, but the sex offenders also had lower rates of general recidivism (45.1%) than most other offenders. Sample and Bray (2003, p. 76) concluded that “based on rates of reoffending, sex offenders do not appear to be more dangerous than other criminal categories.”" Btw. Department of Justice obtained even lower figures. In this study recidivism was 12%
• "The results of this study suggest that SORN has not reduced the rate of sex offender recidivism, nor has it led to a decrease in the number of offenses committed by recidivating sex offenders. Among a 10-year cohort of Iowa sex offenders, not only is the sexual recidivism rate virtually identical prior to and following the implementation of SORN, but so too is the distribution of sex offenders into trajectory groups essentially identical...Although these results appear to be relatively clear, the lack of effectiveness of SORN cannot be stated unequivocally because of potential intervening variables that were not directly examined in this study...The findings suggest that not only are very few sex offenders likely to sexually recidivate, but the policy also appears to have virtually no impact on sex recidivism. Therefore, when also considering the numerous negative consequences associated with SORN (Levenson, 2008; Levenson, Brannon, Fortney, & Baker, 2007; Levenson & Tewksbury, 2009; Mustaine, Tewksbury, & Stengel, 2006a, 2006b; Tewksbury, 2004, 2005; Tewksbury & Lees, 2006; Tewksbury & Mustaine, 2006, 2007, 2009; Tewksbury & Zgoba,in press), the wisdom of maintaining such policies is questionable at best and an unnecessary expenditure of resources at worst. With the exception of providing a “feel-good” policy for the public (Brannon, Levenson, Fortney, & Baker, 2007; Levenson et al., 2007), there is little demonstrable public safety value for SORN (Schram & Milloy, 1995; Zgoba et al., 2008)."

The Google Scholar seems to be doing the cherry picking, trying to make it appear that there is some kind of consensus among academics :/ ––ViperFace (talk) 03:23, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

The reason I'm am rubbing this in your faces, is to make you understand that the relatively small coverage which I added, and you reverted is bare minimum coverage on criticism that should be there. It does not even try to establish that there is negative academic consensus on this matter. Honestly, is my brief and moderate coverage of criticism and parties presenting it too much? MONGO seemed to be ok with it earlier, but for some reason he changed his mind... --ViperFace (talk) 04:38, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

You just wrote..."the relatively small coverage which I added, and you reverted is bare minimum coverage on criticism that should be there." That is the issue. You want to add undue weight to the criticism...it comes across as simply that the registration system and expansion of it (by the passing of this act) has not decreased the incidence of child molestation and other crimes.--MONGO 05:03, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

It's almost impossible for me to assume good faith here: that you and Cantor are here to promote a neutral treatment of this subject matter. A conflict of interest may be going on here on your parts. I suggest you regroup off site and check to make sure that this sudden effort to right great wrongs isn't misplaced.--MONGO 05:15, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Your unwillingness to WP:AGF has been clear from the beginning, as have your accusation of Viper being a WP:SPA (the doing of which violates WP:NPA when used to attempt to gain an upper hand in a dispute), your vague accusation of WP:COI (ditto), and your thus-far empty threats to (re-)open cases against me (a case that found in my favor, btw).

You misunderstand the policy on WP:Neutrality. Specifically, please see WP:YESPOV: "Ensure that the reporting of different views on a subject adequately reflects the relative levels of support for those views, and that it does not give a 'false impression of parity", which is exactly what you are violating. Neutrality does not mean giving each side equal weight; it means giving each side the weight that is proportionate to what receives among the RS's. From WP:WEIGHT: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources (emphasis added). Moreover, I direct your attention to the note expanding on that policy: The relative prominence of each viewpoint among Wikipedia editors or the general public is not relevant and should not be considered. Very simply, because the great majority of RS's are indeed negative in their assessment of the effects of the Adam Walsh Act, we are required to describe it in a way that reflects that. Despite numerous calls, now over quite some time, no has produced a single reference indicating these laws are successful in their goals.

— James Cantor (talk) 08:46, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Collecting and presenting exclusively negative material misleads the reader, giving the impression that all right-thinking people know it's a bad law. Implying that these so-called "sex-offenders" mostly haven't really done anything much wrong but if some did they probably won't do it again, it's likely to be taken as advocacy for change in the law instead of neutral description. I assume this result is an unintentional consequence of the sources used. If well intended, it's not really an improvement to the article. Some of the sources might be used if presented in context elsewhere on the page. Tom Harrison ^Talk 11:53, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I cannot know whether Tom is not reading prior comments or simply ignoring them. I am not (nor is Viper) collecting/presenting exclusively negative material. We are collecting/presenting ALL material. (Despite numerous calls to do so, no one has provided a single RS presenting a contrary view.) That the material happens to be negative is what it is. Why Tom and Mongo simply do not believe this to be the case at the same time as being entirely unable (or unwilling) to back up that belief with other RS's only they can know. Because very much misinformation about sex offenders has circulated in public for so long, it is possible that they simply take it for granted as "common sense." As I say, I cannot know. I can only repeat the continuing unmet request to provide RSs backing their assumptions. I've already pointed out the relevant portions of WP:NPOV, including WP:WEIGHT and WP:YESPOV: The relative prominence of each viewpoint among Wikipedia editors or the general public is not relevant and should not be considered. Yet, in the increasingly glaring absence of such RS's, that seems to be exactly what Tom and Mongo appear to be demanding.

— James Cantor (talk) 15:21, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Its probable that the law has not necessarily done exactly what it was originally intended to do but this bloating of the talk page with long winded recitations and bolding for emphasis appears to indicate to me that Vipeface and Cantor are POV pushing. Cantor was involved in an arbcom case regarding a related issue...a strong COI seems probable here. I concur that some room for critique of the Act is necessary but the MO of how much and the rationale for why seems overtly apologetic and sympathetic to those inconvenienced by the registration system. In the reading I have done some states have at the state level had trouble implementing this act but I don't know exactly why. If Cantor and Viperface wish to expand on that here it might be helpful.--MONGO 12:47, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

In response to Cantor saying I'm violating AGF and NPA by inferring that Viperface is a single purpose account...Viperface has edited little other than these related articles since he created that account a month ago...he also created in his sandbox here...(or it may be a copy paste from another page?) An article which opens with "Reform Sex Offender Laws, Inc. is a national level civil rights and justice reform organization based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, with 27 affiliate organizations in 24 states.[1] RSOL is dedicated to raising awareness about the consequences of current sex offender laws and working towards changing them for the better." This looks like he is here for pretty much one purpose and that is advocacy. The article is now at Reform Sex Offender Laws, Inc..--MONGO 14:29, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

@MONGO I have gone trough this on Talk:Sex offender with several user who, correctly so, disciplined me for my activist style of editing. There I also explained why I'm into these questions and at the moment WP:SPA (BTW, I find bringing that up as nothing else than Shooting the messenger) Unlike you, they seemed to have no problem with me adding criticism, but merely the way I presented it. I also understand that my Good faith among these users has been re-instated. My edits after this incidence have been very restrained. Yet, you have been reverting my edits left and right and acting like the gorilla in your user pic, dominating the articles on this area and suppressing virtually any coverage on critique. I'm "POV-pushing" on this talk page (I'd prefer presenting excessive amounts of evidence to overcome impenetrable barrier of thick skulls), as an attempt to make you realize that there is considerable amount of critique being presented , and that my edit under dispute does not objectively judging raise any undue weight issues. IMO, it should have even more weight, given the unanimous negative consensus among academics. Yet you, accompanied with couple of other users, have engaged in back-fort reverting with me and James over 5 rows content that vaguely covers the main arguments of the critics and some notable parties that have presented it. Although I'll not be happy, I'm willing to settle with the bare minimum coverage solution and restrain myself adding more coverage (that is reinstating the edit under dispute) on criticism. Currently the section is virtually empty, giving expression that only critique that has ever been presented is by some non-notable random dude whose thinking there might be unintended consequences. Currently, the article is totally unbalanced, not covering virtually any criticism. Anyway, due to your few not-so-constructive replies to — James Cantor and persistent resistance to accept the notion of criticism being considerably wide among academics, I'm asking FourViolas, Flyer22 and Herostratus opinions on your behavior, and to address if I and James happen to be totally out of line here. (Some discussion also: here)

@Tom Harrison I welcome all the positive material. I have tried to find it. Positive opinions are mostly general opinions how these laws "are cracking down on sex offenders", "improving the safety of the most vulnerable". Please contribute to the article by presenting RS favorable to your position, so that there could be discussion about differing opinions included (e.g. Debate section). If you think I and James are pulling this in wrong direction you may well introduce RS pulling in opposite direction. That's how we may approach the true equilibrium state of this article. --ViperFace (talk) 15:40, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Re Mongo's comment: "Probable" on the basis of what? Saying things I agree with unbacked by RS's is no better than saying things I disagree with unbacked by RS's. One can continue to use terms such as bloating and long-winded, but what matters continues to be simply what the RS's are. Viper and I have presented many (very many) and there still exist many more. Any scholar.google search shows them. However, for reasons I cannot fathom, Mongo is unwilling/unable to present any RSs in support of his (her?) suppositions, leaving Mongo only with personal accusations as to motivations. Without being willing to pursue those accusations properly (such as by bring them to WP:COI/N), Mongo is engaging in a series of personal attacks.

From WP:SPA: "Existing editors must assume good faith concerning the user account, act fairly, civilly, not bite newcomers, and remember everyone was new at some time. Care is needed if addressing single-purpose accounts on their edits." That he would edit in the topic he is studying (for his PhD was it?) or the school system in his home country (which you appear not to have noticed) are perfectly logical for someone who has only been here for a month. You also seem not to have noticed Viper's immediate willingness to work within all applicable policies (which cannot be said for all here), accept feedback to bring things to talk (whereas others demand consensus be made but didn't to participate in any discussion), reversions of edits made without explanation, etc.

What exactly is wrong with the RSOL page? It's amazingly well sourced, and WP contains coverage of very many such groups, from GLAAD to the ACLU. To repeat the refrain, what are the RS's indicating something's missing from that page?

If a neutral reader were reading, such a reader would logically wonder if there is POV-pushing in the suppression of very well-sourced material, arguments based entirely upon unsupported assumptions, and attacks on others' motivations.

— James Cantor (talk) 15:52, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, do what you think is best then. You keep asking us to prove a negative which cannot be done. If indeed either of you intended to be short and sweet and very specific about what you exactly want the critism to say then I encourage you to start a new section at he bottom and post it and allow us a few days to digest it and examine it. But these long winded and bolded and acrimonious back and forths need to cease. I think I can speak for Tom Harrison that we could both concur as might others that neutral dispassionate critique would likely enhance the article. However, as repeatedly stated, Viperface most definitely is a single purpose account and I have serious reservations about your motives as well Cantor. I am prepared to be proven wrong but this appears to be mushroom clouding rapidly so allow me the opportunity to extend my suggestion stated above, allow me in return to see if what you wish to add meets policy for this website and well, you might be surprised.--MONGO 16:15, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

@MONGOYes I created said page. After seeing numerous cries for help of young men on their late teens to early twenties in their and other advocacy groups pages, who were guilty of nothing more than being douche bags IMO, (e.g. talking dirty to 15 year old over internet) and understanding the total destruction of life as a result of temporary moral lapse of young man, I myself as Human Rights Watch and ACLU see your laws as a human right issue when applied to certain offenders. In other countries we are able to differentiate between true predators and idiots. (see my comparison to speeding above). I do not condone any of such activity, and I welcome the punishment if it's proportional to the offense. Registration in U.S. is not proportional punishment with respect to many offenders. They are not the same. Registries in Canada, Australia and UK are very different. They are not criticized by human right organizations. If this makes me a pro-sex offender advocate in your eyes, you must be terrified for being informed that ALL academics and treatment professionals, and child safety advocates like Patty Wetterling and John Walsh has turned into pro-sex offender NAMBLA advocates. When I first read some of the stupid outcomes U.S. system produces I did not belive it could be true. Now I know it's indeed true and it is a human right issue. I am waiting when UN high commissioner of human rights will weight in on this. There was short public discussion in my country about implementing U.S. type of registries, and opponents were quick to point out the obvious problems with U.S. systems, this brought me around this subject. Our politicians are probably as stupid as yours (that is, not listening the professionals), but they may read wikipedia before making thair decisions. Anyway, rather than consentrating on my motives, you should be concentrating to the quality of my edits. --ViperFace (talk) 16:24, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

+

@MONGOYes I created said page. After seeing numerous cries for help of young men on their late teens to early twenties in their and other advocacy groups pages, who were guilty of nothing more than being douche bags IMO, (e.g. talking dirty to 15 year old over internet) and understanding the total destruction of life as a result of temporary moral lapse of young man, I myself as Human Rights Watch and ACLU see your laws as a human right issue when applied to certain offenders. In other countries we are able to differentiate between true predators and idiots. (see my comparison to speeding above). I do not condone any of such activity, and I welcome the punishment if it's proportional to the offense. Registration in U.S. is not proportional punishment with respect to many offenders. They are not the same. Registries in Canada, Australia and UK are very different. They are not criticized by human right organizations. If this makes me a pro-sex offender advocate in your eyes, you must be terrified for being informed that ALL academics and treatment professionals, and child safety advocates like Patty Wetterling and John Walsh has turned into pro-sex offender NAMBLA advocates. When I first read some of the stupid outcomes U.S. system produces I did not belive it could be true. Now I know it's indeed true and it is a human right issue. I am waiting when UN high commissioner of human rights will weight in on this. There was short public discussion in my country about implementing U.S. type of registries, and opponents were quick to point out the obvious problems with U.S. systems, this brought me around this subject. Our politicians are probably as stupid as yours (that is, not listening the professionals), but they may read wikipedia before making thair decisions. Anyway, rather than consentrating on my motives, you should be concentrating to the quality of my edits. --ViperFace (talk) 16:24, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

−

...First off...please stop linking my username I have the article watchlisted so I don't need to be pinged. Secondly...as I said, start a new section at the bottom and post a paragraph of what you want the critique to say, even though, as Tom mentioned earlier, such critiques aren't always a good thing unless they are integrated into the article, which might prove tricky. My guess is based on your advocacy and singular purpose for being on this website that your intentions are advocacy...and while the article you created may be fine for that, excessiveness here would be overkill. I also suggest you remove the link to donations on your article creation before I do it for you. You try and put that link to donations here and I'll remove it on sight as overt spam. Lastly....you just admitted it above where you say "they may read Wikipedia before making their decisions"...which is clear admission that you are using this website to promote what you advocate.--MONGO 16:45, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know if you get alerted. I have not always been able to follow what has been going on here if my username has not been mentioned. Do you mean the link in ref in RSOL article, It was never intended to be soliciting donations, but merely showing where information comes from. That was one of my first edits. It has now been removed as requested.ViperFace (talk) 17:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

ViperFace is allowed his opinions, as are you. As said in WP:Advocacy: "Editors are not expected to have no opinions about a subject." What's important is that Viper's claims are followed by multiple RS's supporting their accuracy. Thus far, you have produced none, despite the numerous requests.— James Cantor (talk) 17:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Viperface has demonstrated only that he is a single purpose agenda driven editor that is using this website to promote his agenda. He has demonstrated that in his editing history and in his own words. You keep obfuscating because you agree with his content efforts. I might even be persuaded to do that as well, but you have been around plenty long enough to know that this website has a low pain theshold for single purpose accounts that violate policies regarding undue weight or spam pages with their agendas. I have already asked both you to create balanced paragragh in a new section below that outlines the critiques...so put up or shut up Cantor so we can see if you have a clue what undue weight means.--MONGO 17:54, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

My motives has nothing to do with my ability to be objective. You are Shooting the messenger, that is very fundamental fallacy you keep on repeating. Everything I have edited have been properly sourced, and I have not distorted any facts. I got disciplined by some editors for my activist type of editing, I stand corrected. --ViperFace (talk) 18:20, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I will thank you to meter your language.

If you provide any RS's, I will be happy to integrate them. Because you have not/cannot locate any such RS's, there is nothing to balance against. I can only reiterate your continued confusion between WP:BALANCE and WP:BALASPS (aka false parity). Your increasingly shrill comments and personal attacks (and repeated failure to respond to any of the policies or content noted above) suggest you will not hear anything I have to say. I can therefore suggest only that you bring your thoughts to the NPOV noticeboard entry I have linked below.

— James Cantor (talk) 18:20, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Here's the question that is unanswered for me. I am not exactly sure what they are critical of. They seem to create a strawman argument of the intention of the law and then strike it down. Most states already have sex offender registries and laws. This is a law that requires a national registry of sex offenders. It then defines what a sex offender is and is not (example, persons at least 13 years old and less than 4 years in age difference that engage in consensual sexual conduct are not sex offenders for the purpose of the registry). At least tier 2 and tier 3 are convicted felons which means civil liberties are already restricted post-conviction (i.e. firearm possession is illegal, voting is illegal, certain jobs are forbidden, etc, etc). Court judgements are public documents so criminal convictions are not private. I am not quite understanding what the criticism is about since it's merely an extension to what most states do anyway. The act doesn't impose more sentences except those that flee a reporting requirement that was already ordered by a state court. That the registration is about crime committed rather than danger to community seems largely irrelevant. They are looking for a uniform method to account for sex offenders. "Danger" would be assessed at the state level where the actual crimes are codified. It's like accreditation of colleges. GPA and grading are done at the local college level. Degrees, though are rather uniform (BS, MS, PhD, etc). That feds said "report the degree" rather than whatever grading system that was used (i.e. 4.0 scale, 5.0 Scale, pass/fail, etc, etc). Arguing that one is better than the other misses the point that the goal is a list. States that feel there are better approaches to assessing risk are free to set up whatever local system they want (where I am, for some sex offenders, they will go door-to-door with flyers). It seems dubious to me that criticism that starts with "It could be better so it should be repealed" doesn't make much sense. There were many similar complaints about "three strikes laws" and the horror it would be. However, crime is much lower now because of that and "truth in sentencing" laws. Studies that look at recidivism rates need to take into account the length of sentences in comparison to other crimes as well as the overall crime statistics. It would be difficult to find a 3-time convicted child pornographer since the second conviction is for life. A better study are those that interview child molesters and abusers and ask them how many victims did they have before they were caught. Finally, the point of national registration is to catch persons that are fleeing/leaving the state which required them to register. European countries do not treat them as human rights abuses as they do not let sex offenders enter their countries. They may pay lip service to human rights organization about registration but if they answer "Felon: yes; crime: sex offense", their visa will be denied and they don't really care if it's a low risk felon nor are they interested in finding out. --DHeyward (talk) 22:26, 12 December 2014 (UTC)