Talk:Adnan Hajj photographs controversy

F-16 Image

Can we find the original F-16 image? The one being used is actually the photoshopped version showing 3 flares instead of 1. Perhaps a side by side similar to the smoke alteration?--Skwurlled 20:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be cool, but I've not seen the original myself. Was it ever released? Stephen Aquila 00:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Blogs as sources

Blogs as sources I

This article makes a use of blogs as sources. Please read up on WP:RS where it says "Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as primary or secondary sources." and "self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." // Liftarn

It would be rather silly to write an article about a scandal which was uncovered by blogs without linking to those blog posts. Blogs are acceptable primary sources for this purpose, as the Reliable Sources policy clearly states when not quoted so selectively. Cheers, CWC(talk) 17:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

As it says "Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as primary or secondary sources." and "Reports by anonymous individuals, or those without a track record of publication to judge their reliability, do not warrant citation at all, until such time as it is clear that the report has gained cachet, in which case it can be noted as a POV.". Yes, blogs may be used as sources, but "Material from self-published sources, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves" (emphasis added). If it is newsworthy you should be able to find a reliable source saying the same thing. // Liftarn

In this situation, Chris has it right... the blogs are being used as PRIMARY sources for what the blogs themselves say, and not as secondary sources used to support statements of fact. As such, they can be used. Blueboar 20:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Only after he rewrote it entierly so at least something good came out of this. // Liftarn

I have several points to make:

• Note well: "messages left on blogs" means 'comments' written by readers (and spambots!), not 'posts' written by the bloggers themselves. There are many situations where linking to blog posts is appropriate, but linking to blog comments is ...shudder... very rarely acceptable.
• Note also that WP:Reliable Sources is a guideline, not a rigid policy.
• Since much of this article is "about [certain blogs] themselves", WP:Reliable Sources explicitly allows to link to the relevant posts. In fact, WP:Verifiability but pretty much requires us to do so!
• In the version that Liftarn reverted, I tried to use blogs as sources only for statements about the blogs themselves. Pointing out any where I might have failed would have been a lot less disruptive than blindly reverting several hours of hard work along with some important new links.
• In any event, I have now done a further, smaller rewrite which (I think) ensures that every statements for which we cite a blog post is about that blog post. As always, further edits are welcome. (But please avoid massive reverts for a while, heh? Just sayin').
• In the edit summaries, Liftarn claims I made a personal attack (on him); I don't believe I did. See User talk:Chris Chittleborough#Alleged_Personal_Attack.
• Liftarn has written lots of stuff about this article and about me today. It's a pity he never bothered to address the very first point I made in this section:

It would be rather silly to write an article about a scandal which was uncovered by blogs without linking to those blog posts.

• I am glad that Liftarn thinks that "something good" happened here today. Please note that my big rewrite was not prompted by anything he did, was not helped in any way by anything he did and was in fact made harder by something[1] he did. Having spent several hours doing that rewrite, I have now spent several more hours dealing with Liftarn's reversions of that edit, reversions on this page, false allegations, misstatements about WP:RS, etc, etc. If he is claiming any credit for recent improvements to this article, he is quite wrong. I have asked him to clarify his strange and infuriating remark.

Cheers, CWC(talk) 21:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I firmly beleive that if I hadnät pinted out then the statements on blogs would have been taken as reliable sources. Now at least the article says that it is not fact, but something the blog says. // Liftarn

Liftarn, where did you get the strange idea that everyone else but you violates our Reliable Sources policy as a matter of routine? Your firm belief is quite wrong and completely unjustified. Please be less condescending in future. CWC(talk) 16:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't have that idea, but I know there are many POV-pushers around and many of them do violate the Reliable Sources policy as a matter of routine. How else would you explain that so much unsourced statements could be included in the article without anybody noticing? Or even worse, revert changes asking for reliable sources. // Liftarn

Blogs as sources, redux

I don't want this comment to get lost, since I'd expect a few people to have opinions, so instead of continuing a discussion that ended 6 months ago, I'm starting a new one.

There has been a complaint about the number of links to blogs here, especially in light of the fact that this is essentially a biographical article and thus should be subject to WP:BLP. I understand that the blogs broke the story, and that it's important to have them to provide insight and clarity (and large and substantive parts) to the story.

But some of them are rather redundant. Thus, I'm proposing a set of criteria--only blogs that either broke part of the story or blogs that are important enough to have an article on Wikipedia should be listed as references. That's a rather bare minimum for inclusion. Looking at the blogs listed, only one does not meet either of those criteria. Captain's Quarters, whose blog was recently speedy deleted for being non-notable really has no business in the article. I'm removing it. superluser_tc 2007 July 11, 19:14 (UTC)

On closer inspection, the Layout editor blog doesn't meet these criteria, either. The first LGF link should suffice as a replacement. superluser_tc 2007 July 11, 19:23 (UTC)

"There has been a complaint ..." By who? On what grounds?
Blogs are valid sources for what the blogger said or did. This article is about a event which was driven by blogs, so it has to cite lots of blogs.
The deletion of Captains Quarters (blog) was a mistake. It will be undeleted or recreated within a week.
The Layout editor blog may not meet Superluser's criteria, but it meets all of Wikipedia's criteria. It is also more important to the article than the majority of the cites, for reasons of balance.
Superluser, I emphatically reject your proposed set of criteria. I see that you gave the rest of Wikipedia less than 3 minutes to debate your criteria before unilaterally applying them to this article. Please take things less abruptly in future.
Cheers, CWC 20:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The complaint was by MeteorMaker over on Talk:Todd_Goldman. He asserts that since this article is essentially a biography (and indeed, it is under the umbrella of WikiProject Biography), it should follow the more stringent guidelines of WP:BLP:

Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source about a living person, including as an external link, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below).

(emphasis in original) Bastique suggested that we take the issue of blogs as sources up here. I understand that this is a unique situation, where the blogs in question are an important and essential part of the story (indeed, they broke it, so without them, there would be no story), but do we really need six blog sources where the guidelines emphatically endorse zero? Shouldn't we come up with a list of criteria for which blogs should be included, and which should not? Captain's Quarters did not break any part of this story, nor did the Layout editor's blog. Why should we include links to them? If you say, "because they're important blogs," then fine. I can deal with that. I came up with those criteria before I looked to see if the sources met them, and now it appears that all (with the possible exception of the Layout blog) meet at least one of those criteria.

As to issues of balance, I note that Layout does not provide balance; rather, it agrees with the accusers. It's actually pretty hard to disagree about whether the photos were doctored--they're extremely ham-fisted hatchet jobs that effectively undermine faith in all photojournalism, and anyone with any experience with graphic design could not argue otherwise.

There are other sites, however, that would provide balance, if that's what you're looking for. I note that DailyKos and The Huffington Post both have a few posts on the subject. Both are important enough to have their own Wikipedia entries.

As to the speed with which I moved on this issue, I never make major changes to an article without first discussing it on the talk page, and usually wait at least a week before making that major change. In this case, I removed two redundant sources that--according to WP:BLP, should never have been there in the first place. That's hardly major, does no violence to the article, and is easily undone.

(P.S. the whole issue has me questioning WP:BLP. I've got an open discussion for this over at User:Superluser/Reliable Sources for Biographies of Living People. Anyone who is interested in discussing the policy and how it relates to using blogs as sources is hereby invited to participate) superluser_tc 2007 July 14, 18:48 (UTC)

My suggestion would be to use reliable sources like newspapers. There should be enough there to cover the issue. // Liftarn

Edits

• Added timeline to create a standard "into" paragraph.
• Added quote on how Hajj claims to have been removing "dust marks"
• Cleaned up ref to two column format

• --Esemono 07:13, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Hany Farid is a professor

To the genius who wrote that Hany Farid is a professor at UMass Dartmouth: if you don't actually know your facts, maybe you should refrain from posting? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.239.47 (talk) 03:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

NPOV TAG - doctored vs. altered/manipulated

A recent edit has changed "altered" or "manipulated" to "doctored." This would seem to be a POV issue, so I've changed it back to its original state. If anyone objects and wants to change it to "doctored," let's discuss it here, first. superluser_tc 2007 August 12, 05:34 (UTC)

No, Adding smoke and 'missiles' is doctoring, and not legitimate. Manipulation can mean legitimate transforms as well as doctoring, so it's a less specific (and hence misleading) term. Let's stick with the accurate word: "doctored". (In fact, I changed the article back before seeing this message.) Cheers, CWC 10:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. "Doctoring" carries the connotation that what Adnan has done is wrong. While I believe that what Adnan had done is wrong and derelict, it is not our place to decide this, but rather to leave such conclusions (obvious though they may be) up to the reader. In addition, "doctoring" covers a broad range of things, from manipulation to adulteration to changing the credentials of the thing in question. Manipulation, on the other hand, can only mean one thing, and in this case, it is the thing that we intend. It should be noted that manipulation of images, in general, is never legitimate for journalistic purposes.

In your revert, you claim that the original text contained Weasel Words. This is not correct. Weasel words are summarized by WP:AWW when they say, "contributions by even the most well-meaning editors will contain what they thought were statements of fact but are actually contested in some way." It is not contested that Adnan has manipulated these images, and Lord Patrick's change does not increase the factual nature of the statements. Indeed, the imprecise nature of the term "doctored" makes the statements more weaselly than the original ones.

I'm concerned about the very one-sided nature in which this article is being edited, and so I'm going to place some NPOV tags on the statements, and see if that doesn't get some independent viewpoints. superluser_tc 2007 August 13, 16:05 (UTC)

Well, I'd say that being fired by Reuters for 'manipulating' photos justifies the use of the word 'doctored'. Also, some manipulation of images is legitimate: a good example is adjusting the brightless levels in an outdoor shot where part of the scene is sunlit.

Superluser, putting some NPOV tags on the statements is a great idea. Thanks for that. Cheers, CWC 03:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Someone else seems to have the same idea. Unfortunately, this someone has decided that the proper word is "retouched." I think we can all agree that that is the wrong word. Red eye reduction is "retouching". They don't fire people for that. I'm not shedding any tears over the loss of the unrelated paragraph that this editor removed, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Superluser (talk • contribs) 14:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

"Defensive" flare?

I am puzzled by the adjective "defensive" in front of the noun "flare." Why do fighters or fighter-bombers fire flares of this kind? Was it meant to misdirect a ground-to-air missile? Or was it used as a signal? -- Rob C. alias Alarob 14:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Defensife flares is used to confuse IR guided missiles. For radar guided you use chaff (strips of alumiium foil). // Liftarn (talk)

Fair use rationale for Image:IAFplaneLebanon.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 18:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Georgia conflict

Per this diff:

This information is based on a single source and contributes a disproportionate amount of material about another media controversy. If this controversy is notable and supported by additional sources, the author should create a separate article devoted to this controversy. It would be acceptable to briefly refer and wikilink to such a controversy; however, an entire paragraph on a media controversy related to the Russia-Georgia conflict does not belong in an article on a media controversy related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. I hope that the editor who contributed this information can understand this rationale. ← Michael Safyan ^(talk) 01:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a curious perspective. Your view is not widely shared.

The reports of Reuters' staged photos from Georgia come from not one but *multiple* sources across the globe. That point needs to be acknowledged by your team.

More importantly, the "Reutersgate" entry should no longer re-direct to this one, since the 2006 photo frauds attributed to Adnan Hajj are essentially old news.

The article on the Hajj photo frauds should be relegated to its own entry which is then linked from Reutersgate.

The Reutersgate scandal is now seen to encompass a variety of photo frauds and faking techniques used by the agency, including the set of staged photos the agency recently published in its coverage of the Georgia conflict.

I hope that the author will come to recognise that wikipedia's own credibility revolves around matters such as this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edwinacl (talk • contribs) 03:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

With regard to the comments above and with regard to this diff:

Firstly, whether my view is "widely shared" or not is irrelevant (and also highly dubious, given that you have not provided any evidence to support that claim). Secondly, blogs do not qualify as reliable sources. They can only be used to state what they claim and not to support such claims. This article would not exist if 1.) Reuters had not admitted to improper editing and 2.) prominent media watchdog groups -- which are not blogs -- had not commented extensively on this issue and 3.) had news of the incident not made its way into reliable news sources. The only sources you have provided for your edits are blog websites. This does not meet Wikipedia's guidelines of reliable sourcing. Thirdly, the term "Reutersgate" to refer to this particular incident is supported by reliable sources. If, in the future, reliable sources connect the use of the term "Reutersgate" with this new incident, then the Reutersgate page can be made into a disambiguation page instead of a simple redirect. Lastly, photograph scandals which are unrelated to the Adnan Hajj photographs controversy should not be placed in the Adnan Hajj photographs controversy article. Please, instead, create a separate article devoted to the specific controversy in question. Thank you. ← Michael Safyan ^(talk) 06:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Unless Adnan Hajj has taken these photos, let's keep them in a separate article. Add a See Also, if you think it's appropriate. superluser_tc 2008 September 11, 18:25 (UTC)

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