Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 40

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11 Million Killed in Genocide

What is the basis for this total sum? What constitutes a "genocide" killing? Is this an assertion, a claim, a shot in the dark, a bolt from the blue? It does not appear to be sourced, and in as much as it features prominently right towards the front of a very long article, it should be a well established figure. I notice there's quite a dispute going on over at the Stalin discussion page over how extensive the Soviet genocide was, yet here the article is stopped dead in its tracks and we calmly accpt this figure. Muttley-Media 22:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

By 'Genocide', I presume what is meant is the mass killing of people by the Nazis - in other words, the Holocaust. It is a widely accepted fact that anywhere between 5 to 11 million people were killed in the Holocaust between the years 1942-1945 - the main period of the Nazi Genocide. Before this, there had certainly been deaths, but not in those numbers - it is estimated that by 1942, 500,000 Jews in Poland and Russia - areas which contained a much larger number of Jews than Germany - (not counting any other denominations of people) were murdered by the Nazis - a relatively small amount compared to the huge number killed post-1942. The reason for the huge number of people killed in the 1942-1945 period is down to the fact that Hitler decided in 1942 that it was the time to start the extermination of Jews in Europe; as recorded in Joseph Goebbels' diary:
"The Fuehrer... expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe... Not much will remain of the Jews. About sixty per cent of them will have to be liquidated; only about forty per cent can be used for forced labour."
This time was when concentration camps were used to their full effect - in the implementation of the 'Final Solution'. Killings outside the concentration camps were not at all as large in numbers, so the Genocide usually refers to the concentration camp killings. Of course, it was not only Jews killed in the Holocaust, but many other denominations of people deemed 'undesirable' by the Nazis.
Finally, the reason why the 11 million is indeed a very ballpark figure is because it is impossible to tell just how many people were murdered by the Nazis (mostly in the concentration camps). They (I believe) did not keep records of all the people, if any, that were murdered - the camps were set up to rid the Third Reich of those that the Nazis stood against, and so for this reason records were not kept. The dead bodies were either buried in mass graves, and some were burnt in large furnaces - thus making it impossible to tell exactly how many people were killed, but it is still possible to get a rough idea. Hope this clears things up for you. --LeFrog 09:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think muttley-media is looking for the figure to be sourced.--Shtove 20:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, a source would seem necessary for any such absolute figure. Also, my question revolves around the definition of a "holocaust victim". Would an American or Soviet soldier qualify as such? Frankly, I've never seen this statistic before, certainly not stated as fact. As victims of genocide rather than casualties of war, the sum would argue that on top of the "six million" there were another five million who died in concentration camps or were shot on the edge of burial pits throughout Eastern Europe. I think this is untenable according to what I've read. If it includes people who died of disease and who were inadvertant civilian casualties (e.g. from bombings), it is an entirely false category unto itself and should be removed or broken down into more definitive categories. Muttley-Media 01:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

A few concerns

Firstly with regards to the religious debate, there are far too many assumptions about Hitler's religious convictions. The article should only contain verifiable facts such as dates and actual statements by Hitler himself or those close to him. Too much speculation and poorly sourced claims are asking for trouble.

Secondly, I have never read anywhere Hitler or any other Nazi claiming Jesus was an Aryan, and any Christian who claims Jesus was a jew, half jew ect. obviously needs to read his/her bible more carefully. It states Jesus was not conceived through the natural means and that his mother Mary was a virgin and died a virgin.

My last objection is the part which explains the "means oppression" and describing the SS as a mere tool of oppression. What exactly is oppression and by who's definition? One man's oppressor or blasphemor is another man's hero/savior. We can see this double perception even in Christ and his jewish opponents. To some the SS were a deathsquad, others they were knightly soldiers, a sort of modern day Teutonic knighthood valiantly defending their country against the Communist invaders. You cant take one side over the other, that is a POV. I also agree with the complaint with regards to the 11 million figure, it seems like that is just pulled out of thin air. This has always been curious to me as I can surf through 100 different holocaust sites and find different figures on a sizable majority of them, in one demographic or another and there are still holocaust websites to this very day maintaining the Nazis boiled down their jewish victims to use their body fat to make cosmetic products, soap, et nausium. The problem is history and its mainstream perception is all too often influenced by irrational emotion, prejudice and a desire to glorify or vilify, particularly when we're dealing with a tragedy in the magnitude of WW2 and its fallout. Its all too easy to vilify someone you despise regardless of whether its completely factual. The Allies imprisoned hundreds of political dissenters, Nazi supporters, German citizens and thousands upon thousands of Japanese Americans for the duration of the war. The Americans set up a commitee called "the house committee on un-american activities" which oversaw the arrest and imprisonment of countless people, and is actually very little different than the German efforts to weed out dissent in their ranks. Its funny how you never read about any of that in the articles about the Allies during WW2 yet we all seem to go out of our way to ensure the Germans remain the ultimate villain.

Nazrac π 19:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Please set up a user page.--Shtove 21:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Nazrac, I officially declare your polemic to be a troll. Replying to you would only give unwarranted credence to your diatribe. DJ Clayworth 21:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Jesus not a jew?

I just had to write something about that point. Jesus' mother was jewish- so therefore he was too. Judaism passes through the maternal line, so if someone has a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother, they are not considered Jewish. Jesus' was clearly a Jew. He preached to other Jews- and no-one else! He preached in the temple in Jerusalem. People proclaimed him King of the Jews. It was only after his death, the people starting preaching his message outside of the Jewish population, and an idea of christianity as distinct from Judaism, rather than just a branch of Judasim, didn't exist for decades after Jesus' death. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.196.239.189 (talk • contribs) .

Perhaps you miss the point. According to the bible jesus was not conceived through natural means. Since by definition, being jewish is hereditary (the mother must be a jew, that way it can be established with certainty the child is at least half jewish) jesus could not have been conceived through natural reproductive methods, meaning that he never inherited "jewishness." Secondly Joseph was a jew, not Marry, who as stated in the bible and as I cited earlier died a virgin, hence the term "the virgin mary." It is unfortunate you all allow irrational emotion to interfere with a rational perspective on the Hitler issue, and even more unfortunate that religious dogma always has to seep into these discussions and convolute the argument beyond recovery. As usual, the first resort of a childish mind when confronted with an argument they cannot intelligibly dispute is to engage in a barrage of childish name calling and slander, such as what DJ Clayworth has done. I love how they always justify it by adding "your argument is not worth responding to" which is always a desparate statement.

As Hitler stated in Mein Kampf "it is easier to believe a comforting lie than it is to face the discomforting reality"

Nazrac π 19:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

hitler's name

I recolect hearing once that Hitler was not his last name of birth, if this is the case than that should be stated in the article, Stalin's page has his original name. Yev900 03:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Yev, your were misinformed. Hitler was born Adolf Hitler - it was his father, Alois Hitler, who was born Alois Schicklgruber. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 19:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I recommend the Hitler Page be removed from wiki altogether. There is clearly bias in the interpretations of his intentions and many people find discussions of Hitler to be offensive as well. I don't think it is fair to have a double standard: the creators of other goups' pages have been removed because some people don't like the activities of that group. It would be nice if there was no bias in the data presented on the Wiki, but since this will never be the case, all offensive pages should be removed.

New Infobox

I have changed the infoxbox to match the other German presidents and to more clearly show the crossover between his time as Chancellor and Führer. However, I don't know what to put in the profession field. Should it be artist or soldier or simply politician? Philip Stevens 11:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

And Asia

I think the introduction text should be changed to include Asia if we are talking about Axis Powers to "Germany and the Axis Powers ruled much of Europe and Asia..."

Haffner quote

I have observed that a quote by Sebastian Haffner has been added and removed from both this article and the fork article on religious beliefs. My take on this is that while Haffner is a reputable writer and quite quotable, the view expressed in this quoted is based on dated scholarship, as primarly expressed in the Hitler biography by Allan Bullock. From what we know today it can now longer be upheld. The only possibility of including it would be in a footnote about "misconceptions" alongside of Hitler the occultist, or Hitler the esotericist, or Hitler the neopagan, or Hitler the Catholic. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 13:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Archived unfinished issues

I'm not sure why the discussion was archived while the issues remain unsettled. It seems premature so I posted one part of the archive that is an ongoing discussion, about one such issue regarding some continued points of contention. Each objection that Str1977 raised and its answer also seems to have been unsettled, as well? Or was it settled? In anycase I noticed that Str1977 has recently reverted to the old versoin that was opposed, which removed all the MeinKauf quotes. I would hope that he would talk about the changes here first so as to avoid another edit war that will only end up with this article being locked, again. Giovanni33 01:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Gio,

first of all, I did the archiving because the talk page was huge and because no one responded anymore to the points raised (and hence reposting something from the archive without having anything to say to it is no way to go).

Not that you ever actually responsed to the points actually raised. Instead you prefer to respond to things not done, not said, not posted and to edits not made, even here above by saying "which removed all the MeinKauf quotes" - the quotes were not removed but integrated into the text. BTW, very high (and unreasonable) demands have been placed on me in regard to verifiability, up to skimming through two tomes of Kershaw to contradict a careless, unprovable statement about what he didn't say, while you include Mein Kampf quotes without giving any reference. Now, I am not inclined to be bitchy and remove them all because of your failure, instead I looked at the valuable info they contained and integrated them into the text. You obviously are not inclined to care for the quality of the article.

Regarding the dispute, I have provided a detailed list of objections to "your" version, so maybe you may care to do the same in reverse.

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 10:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, and please don't just remove tags you don't agree with. It might be considered vandalism. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 13:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Until you agree to stop removing my comments from the talk page, I won't waste my time posting long arguments here, except to say that you did remove the MK quotes and not they were not integrated into the article. You made massive changes and you failed to get conensus for them among editors here first. The standards that are applied to you are reasonable standards and required by NPOV, V, and OR. They apply to eveyrone equally. The issues on the talk page are still relevant because the disputes have not been settled yet. I think the issue is that your objected were soundly answered and your points were refuted so that is why we now see you hiding it and starting as if nothing happened, all over again. Is this your tactic because it won't work.Giovanni33 20:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe, Gio you are unaware of this, but compliance with Wiki-rules is not conditional on another user's behaviour. Especially since I have not removed your comment but only the appended reposting of part of the archive. Neither have I removed the MK quotes (still unsourced, so much for standards). Another thing, contradicted does not equal refuted and just because sound is a word from the field of accoustics it is not the same as high-pitched or loud. Gio, I want to invite you once again to state your objections to "my" version (which was in fact a collaboration of many). Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 20:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Merger

Merged Hitler's Religious Beliefs since the content was the same when I looked at it. Any complaints let me know. Themillofkeytone 20:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not merged, since Gio prefers to disallow the accurate, NPOV, structured version of that section. Hence I have reposted the merge notice. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 20:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Gentlemen, please try and keep a cool head! This is not about what content is the "correct" content. This is merely a discussion about where the content should be located. If we want it as a separate page, then we should summarize and let it be a separate page, and we can discuss and NPOV it there. If not, we should change that page to a redirect and keep the content on the Hitler page. Personally, I think the Hitler article is getting a bit long, so I think we should have the separate article, at least for now. That way, the discussion you two are having can be focused on a talk page specifically designed for it, and other Hitler issues can be discussed on the main talk page. Themillofkeytone 18:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The_Jew_of_Linz

I would like to add a link in this Hitler article to the Wikipedia article "The_Jew_of_Linz", which contains interesting matters concerning Hitler's schooldays. Would someone let me know the procedure, given that the Hitler article is locked?

Yes, of course; you need to create an account to edit partially locked pages. You also have to have been editing for a little while, just to see that you're all right. So if I were you, I'd create an account right away. And, where would you like this link to be placed? -- (James McNally)  (talkpage)  00:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Since I haven't been "editing for a little while", it might be quicker and easier if someone who knows what they're doing does it. Just before the heading "Early adulthood in Vienna and Munich", I would appreciate someone adding the folowing sentence: "A recent book makes much of the fact that Hitler and Ludwig Wittgenstein (later the famous Cambridge philosopher)jointly attended the Linz Realschule in the school year 1903/4." followed by a link to the Wikipedia article The_Jew_of_Linz.

Done as requested. -- (James McNally)  (talkpage)  17:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you.

Der Untergang

I think it would be useful, in the section on films about Hitler, to have the British and American name for the film, Downfall, in brackets after the name Der Untergang, as readers are unlikely to be aware of it's German name and may therefore miss it.

Done.Giovanni33 04:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

-"I am just a small physicist" Perharps, you need to cover Einstein's mega involvement in the two world wars, and I still do not know German.I am sorry to say this but with aspect to the gigantic scale of World War II. You have to trace the facts of World War II, the important thing about the Jews, no racism dude, and the immense vandalism of the German leader's Adolf Hitler's part, I think you have to study this in breadth and details and you will have to ask how FDR teleported the cruisers and the transport ships to Europe via the TItanic routes. I think there is teleportation in it, there is laser I suppose.The lessons to learn from this is this man, history will repeat itself if the situation is allowed to repeat itself. I know it is controversial, but do you know he was flunked unforunately? The thing about magic, the dungeons, the dragons, the Jews are true, sorry my friend.

Possible copyvio

I was looking for a source for the "Heil Schicklgruber"-airdrop when I found [1]. The first part of the text matches almost perfectly with the first part of the Wikipedia article. This leaves a few situations where this could happen:

• The article is a WP:Copyvio.
• Wikipedia had permission to copy it, bu I see no evidence of that.
• The article was taken from Wikipedia and put on the site, in which case their copyright notice on the bottom is wrong.

- Dammit 10:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hitler was a Propagandist

The use of referencing "The Holy Reich" as an authority on Hitler's religious beliefs is highly questionable. The basis of the argument in "The Holy Reich" was that the pamphlets distributed to the German people were Christian oriented, which doesn't mean anything as to Hitler's actual beliefs. It merely shows that Hitler was willing to understand how to pull people's strings. Any passive observer of Nazism can see the incorporation of Christianity, Catholicism, the occult, Eastern philosophies, and Marxist-oriented ideas of class-warfare (in Mein Kampf Hitler frequently rants about the bourgeosis and proletariat). So to use one book "The Holy Reich" as the basis for calling Hitler a Christian is intellectually irresponsible. German Christians were really just pawns in Hitler's game to kill the rich non-Aryans, so to speak.

The issue of Hitler's religion is basically the foundation for calling Hitler a "right winger." Hitler was neither "left" nor "right." A right-winger tries to unify people based on religion, race or nationality. A left-winger tries to unify people based on economic status. Hitler was in effect doing both. Hitler unified the German people on the basis of being Aryan which was a term popularized by the occultist, Helena Blavatsky in her book The Secret Doctrine, against what Hitler saw as the embodiment of the bourgeosis, the Jewish people. Hitler did so with a two-pronged propaganda attack to get into the hearts and wallets of the German people; by blaming the Jewish people and Allied powers for the economic devastation in Germany, post World War 1, and by invoking the blood of Jesus to galvanize anyone that wasn't impoverished.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.185.57.48 (talk • contribs) .

This begs the question of what were 'Hitlers actual beliefs" as if that were something you could know. You can't read his mind. Ofcourse he was a propagandist. This doesn't mean he didn't believe in his own propaganda. Hitler did carry out and do a lot of the things he said he would do, as he wrote in MK. George Bush is a propagandist. Does this mean that Bush is not really a Christian, either? We can only go by both his public and private statments, what he wrote and what he said, what he did--and then let the reader decide about what they think Hitler really believed. The record, to me, indicates Hitler was a Christian, typical of the right-wing Christian fascists we can still find today.Giovanni33

The record to me, quite clearly indicates two things:

• Hitler was not a Christian (in any meaningful sense) and not a Catholic (in any sense), based on his private statements (and so far we have no such statements from Bush indicating a distaste for Christianity, which GWB espouses in a way Hitler never came remotely close) and his actions (or failure of actions)

Personal attack by Str1977 removed here. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAdolf_Hitler&diff=59338411&oldid=59327401]Giovanni33 03:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 22:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as your claim that Hitler was not a Christian in any meaninful sense, this is easily refuted. All one has to do is give some meaninful definition of Hitler's brand of Christianity falls within a definition of being a Christian. To say that is not possible is to produce a very narrow, bigoted, definition of a Christian. I wonder if you can even come up with a defintion that would work to exclude Hitler as a Christian and yet not excude all the other Christians in history by the same token. No doubt you will fail to do so and therefore your bias that such a person regarded as evil by most people can not be a Christian simply does not stand up to any meaningful scrutiny. Giovanni33 03:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

To review some of the particulars of Hitler's brand of Christianity. He believed that Adam and Eve were created by God in his image (but this is not a particularly Christian belief?!?), but he also believed that not all of us are descended from Adam and Eve (interestingly enough, its not hard to run into some types of Christian fundamentalists who share this belief). To be more specific, Hitler believed that the Aryan race was descended from Adam and Eve, but everyone else evolved naturally.

He believed that Jesus of Nazareth was an Aryan, not a Jew, and that Jesus fought the Jews and was killed by them. He believed in life after death, the supreme being, and universal creation. He opposed the Catholic church only due to superficial matters such as the seat of power was in Rome, not Berlin, and where it interfered with the State being the superior. He was intolerant of competing versions of Christianity (an approach lifted directly from the Catholic playbook), but at no time did he ever commit acts or express beliefs which were not expressed by other Christians before him such as Martin Luther (as well as certain Christians after him, right up to this day.)

It is widely acknowledged that the most authoritative statement on Hitler's beliefs and plans was his infamous book "Mein Kampf". In this book we have identified the voluminous statements within that clearly mark Adolf Hitler as a Christian. There are many such statements, and they reveal a great deal about his motivations. After reading this I wonder how there can there be any serious doubt that the person who wrote this document was a Christian, albeit a deranged byproduct of its anti-Semitic and creationist subgroups.

Beliefs Revealed as are expressed quite clearly in Mein Kampf, and they are as follows:

• He believed in Heaven, Hell, a supreme being who created the universe, Jesus Christ, life after death, special creation, original sin, expulsion from paradise, and divine judgement.

• He drew his inspiration from the Viennese Christian Social movement, and he expressed nothing but admiration for its founder.

• He believed that Jesus Christ was an Aryan, not a Jew. In fact, he claimed that Jesus "made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity".

• He used the term "human" to describe only Aryans. He described blacks, Jews, and (presumably) other non-Aryan races as a disease, or as lower animals (notice that he described Jews as an "adversary of all humanity", thus clearly describing them as something other than humans).

• He thought that interracial marriage would produce "monstrosities halfway between man and ape" and should be fought with religious fervour. This makes his beliefs on evolution and creation very clear; he thought that Aryans were created in God's own image, while all other races evolved from apes. This should come as no surprise; not only was this an overwhelmingly common belief during the age of European imperialism which lasted right up to the end of the 19th century, but it persists to this day (a lot of white supremacists still refer to blacks as "monkeys"). In his view, it was therefore an unnatural and unholy dilution of God's image for Aryans and non-Aryans to mate.

• He believed that Germany lost World War I because it turned its back on God, much as Israel was repeatedly humiliated and defeated whenever it turned away from God in the Old Testament.

What more is required to show that he was Christian? Not for nothing do Christian apologists make the absurd claim that hearsay accounts of supposedly private conversations with people outside his inner circle should be considered penultimate forms of evidence while Hitler's seminal writings should be considered irrelevant; they fear the truth, and they want you to disregard his most personal work.

And make no mistake: Mein Kampf is his most personal work. Far from being the carefully crafted political statement that some would make it out to be, it was Hitler pouring out his soul and revealing all of his life's plans to his closest confidante. He dictated and Hess transcribed the text of Mein Kampf while he was in prison in 1923-1924, finishing it after his release and publishing it in 1925. In it, he revealed everything: his plan to expand Aryan "living space" at the expense of the Slavs (ie- the foolish attack on Russia that so few saw coming), his plan to avenge the German defeat of World War I by conquering France, his belief that all of the world's races should be subjugated under the Aryan race, and his plan to exterminate the Jews. By reading this single document, one can predict every major action Hitler would take over the next two decades including the Holocaust and the "surprise" attack on Russia, yet Christian apologists would have you believe it was nothing but a misleading propaganda piece!

How Hitler's Beliefs Guided His Actions can also be clearly linked. Hitler's writings reveal a religious fanatic: a Christian and a creationist, driven by the belief that racial intermixing was destroying the purity of God's creation (the Aryan race, which he imagined to include Jesus) by mating with naturally evolved "apes". His actions were wholly consistent with this belief. Consider:

While some Christians believe that all acts of war violate God's will, the majority of Christians throughout history have believed in the idea of the "just war"; a war of good against evil, in which the good guys commit no wrong by waging war on the bad guys (for example, World War Two is widely cited as the last "just war", despite the fact that the "good guys" ended it by dropping nuclear weapons on civilian targets without explicit warning). Hitler obviously shared this belief; he thought he was fighting for a just cause.

While some Christians claim that racism is inherently anti-Christian, the sheer numbers of Christian racists throughout history (and indeed, throughout the world today who justified Israelite atrocities by citing their racial status as God's "chosen people") easily put the lie to that claim. In reality, the Old Testament is an extremely racist tome, and Jesus said very little to contradict its message of a "chosen people" in the New Testament. Moreover, the virulent racism of both Catholic and Protestant conquerors in Africa, India, and the Americas during the age of European colonialism makes any claims of Christianity's inherent anti-racism absolutely laughable.

While most Christians believe that the sixth commandment outlaws murder, they believe that it does not extend to the killing of animals. Hitler believed that non-Aryans were animals. Most Christians also believe that murder can be justified (eg- self defense). Hitler believed that the world was arrayed against Germany and that their national actions were taken in self-defense.

The interesting thing about Hitler is that if you accept his bizarre belief system, his actions actually make sense. A common thread among all white supremacists has been (and still is) their hatred for racial intermixing. They see it as a "dilution" of the "purity" of the white race (obviously ignorant of the biological fact, consistent with evolution theory, that strength comes from diversity rather than purity).

Hitler was no exception; he hated racial intermixing with the fervour of racism buttressed by religious conviction, because he felt that non-Aryans were not human, and in his words, marriage should produce children who are "images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape." In his mind, his "Final Solution" was no different from the kind of extermination program one might carry out against pest animals, and in a very real sense, his creationism led directly to his racism.

Creationists have long tried to portray Nazism as the end result of Darwin's evolution theory. But his writings make it very clear that while he accepts natural evolution as the origin of other races, he does not accept that he himself was the product of natural evolution. Since Darwin's theory of evolution makes no allowance for such ridiculous exceptions to the rule, it is quite clear that despite creationist claims to the contrary, Hitler did not understand or accept evolution theory. It is clear that he was, in fact, a creationist (albeit what we would ironically refer to as a "moderate" creationist today), who believed that while evolution does take place in the natural world, the Aryan race stood apart from nature, was created by God in his own image, and had been given dominion over the Earth.

The common excuse given by Christian apologists is that he was only pretending to be a Christian in his public speeches and writings, in order to curry the favour of Christians in Germany. However, this excuse has many serious weaknesses:

All of the evidence for this massive contradiction between public and private beliefs is hearsay. Typically, it involves uncorroborated accounts of private conversations. Any sensible observer must question why Hitler suddenly became so open about his secret beliefs that he would spew them even after having been informed that they would be documented.

Most accounts of his private conversations do not contain anti-Christian sentiments. In fact, when you look carefully at all the anti-Christian quotes attributed to Hitler, you will find that virtually all of them come from just two or three people! One must question why they alone were privy to secret thoughts that he carefully hid from everyone else in his life and his government. Why didn't he reveal these secret thoughts to Rudolf Hess? Heinrich Himmler? Joseph Goebbels? Hermann Göring? Are we supposed to seriously believe that Hitler kept all of these men in the dark for more than a decade while abruptly pouring out his heart to his secretary Martin Bormann, and an obscure provincial official named Hermann Rauschning?

In order to generate something more substantive than unreliable hearsay quotes, Hitler's actions or words against political opponents or competing brands of Christianity are almost invariably misrepresented as actions or words against Christianity as a whole. This is simply absurd; if we adopt denominational intolerance or political ruthlessness as the definition of anti-Christian attitudes, then most Christians throughout history have been anti-Christian, including the Roman Catholic church throughout most of its existence!

Hitler never publicly spoke out against Christianity right up until the very end, yet he demonstrated such extreme megalomania, capacity for self-delusion, and overconfidence in his own abilities (particularly as the war dragged on) that it seems absolutely ludicrous to believe that he was still hiding his true beliefs for fear of offending religious groups.

When one pays lip service to a common religious belief which one actually finds repugnant (as many of the American founding fathers did), one normally does not do it as clearly and enthusiastically as Hitler did.

There is no serious historical doubt that the roots of his anti-Semitism came from the Viennese Christian Social movement, or that he was inspired by Martin Luther who wrote the infamous racist screed "On Jews And Their Lies". Are we to believe that he admired these men and followed in their footsteps while simultaneously despising their beliefs?

Even if we accept the unfounded notion that Hitler pretended to be a Christian in order to curry favour with the public, we would still have to acknowledge that the Christian public was amenable to his message! There would have been no benefit in paying lip service to Christians if Christianity were as inherently unreceptive to his message as modern Christian apologists would have you believe.

The harsh reality is that there is no credible evidence whatsoever for the notion that Hitler was not a Christian. He might not have practiced your next-door neighbour's version of Christianity, but based on all credible sources including his own seminal Mein Kampf, he did believe in Jesus Christ, the supreme being, Heaven and Hell, divine judgement, expulsion from paradise, etc.

Conclusion: The only way to deny Hitler's Christianity is to define "Christian" in a bigoted manner, ie- "to be Christian is to be moral", which is the refrain of those who would believe that you can determine someone's morality (or lack thereof) by simply asking what religious beliefs he holds. Those who would deny Hitler's Christianity on the basis of his immoral actions are guilty of not only religious bigotry but also circular logic: as they see it, Hitler is consistent with their belief that all Christians are moral because he was not a Christian, and they know he was not a Christian because all Christians are moral!

All of the evidence produced to deny Hitler's christianity is shamelessly misleading or fraudulent, with its proponents actually making the ridiculously audacious claim that Hitler's documented, corroborated statements should be ignored in favour of uncorroborated hearsay! His voluminous statements indicating his religious beliefs are summarily ignored in favour of private conversations with questionable sources, some of which may not have even taken place!

The true details of Hitler's story make social right-wingers uncomfortable, and well they should, for they fly in the face of so many of their longstanding claims. They like to equate "liberal" to "immoral", but Hitler was a right-winger, hated liberalism, and was aided in his rise to power by German political and religious right wing leaders. They like to equate city life to immorality, but Hitler grew up in the country. They believe that a religious upbringing produces people of good character, but Hitler was raised strictly Catholic, wrote admiringly of the monks and the abbot (at a monastery in Lambach, Austria near his home which was adorned with numerous swastikas, possibly the inspiration for the Nazi flag), served as an altar boy and a choir boy, and for two years, seriously contemplated becoming a Catholic priest himself. They like to believe that strict disciplinarian parenting is the solution to social problems, but Hitler's father was an extremely strict, disciplinarian parent. They like to believe that spiritual, artistic people tend to be more ethical than "cold, sterile, technical" rationalists, but Hitler was a spiritual, artistic person with little or no technical aptitude (he loved to draw and he actually wanted to study art and architecture, but his father forced him to go to a technical high school where his marks were atrocious, and he dropped out at age 16) .

In conclusion, not only is the falsehood of the "Hitler was not a Christian" myth glaringly obvious to any reasonable observer, but it is quite clear that for very obvious reasons, the proponents of this myth will stoop to any depth in order to perpetuate it.Giovanni33 03:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Blah, blah, blah, blah. Gio's old replacing substance with a long string of words again. No understanding whatsoever of the issue or the actual historical events but always ready to load his wisdom unto us.

All your points could easily be countered but that would be Matthew 7,6. After all Gio thinks it superficial what is esential to the Church (papacy) or to Christianity itself (Jesus being a Jew) and totally misrepresents Hitler's ardent belief in an evolution along Darwinistic lines (ever heard of Haeckel. Even in his last days, Hitler opined that the Germans had proved unfit and therefore natural selection would demand their extinction (to which he willingly contributed through the Nero orders).

In Gio's world, Stalin was not a Communits but Hitler was a Christian. Because Christians are always evil and Communists never. Mao of course being the exception as his murderous acts served progress and development blahaha.

A countryman of mine, which Gio probably thinks highly of, once said: "He who understands is never angry!" I like to draw this variation: "He who hates will never be absle to understand!"

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 13:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Str1977, your reply to Giovanni33 is not impressive. Also, I think we should focus on the actual arguments and he evidence, and not the editor or things which do not pertain to the argument. It shows weakness on your part when you do otherwise. And red-baiting? I believe Giovanni is essentially correct. The fact that Hitler never once publicly spoke out against Christianity even when he was fully in control and had nothing to lose, when his he demonstrated otherwise an extreme megalomania, and overconfidence in his own abilities, I agree with Gio that it seems very odd to believe that he was still hiding his true beliefs for fear of offending religious groups. He was a Christian but of the radical, fanatical racist type. This is consisten with him being a Nazi, not your ordinary social and political conservative (who, btw, supported him and helped him in power).

Also, his racist views and those of social darwinism were quite common during the age of colonialism and imperialism and its clear Hitler's German Pan-Nationalism did fit in well with adoptiong such an outlook; certain his imperialist agenda put into practice for "labenstraum" is consistent with it. I do not see how your citing one well known social-darwinist biologists who employed such thinking does anything but support Giovanni's own argument. It is interesting how Hitler despite his adoption of the racism of social darwinism did not give up his Christian beliefs of God' creation. Ofcourse he thought that Aryans were created in God's own image, while the "inferior" races evolved from apes. This racist view persists today but was quite common during the age of European colonialism. Your argument that Hitler viewed Jesus as Aryan and not a Jew does not mean Hitler was not a Christian. Being a Christian does not rest on one's view of the ethnicity of Jesus. It only requires that Jesus be the son of God, or Lord, which Hitler certainlly belived in, along with the other essential doctrines of the faith. I also note that there are Christian Identiy Chruch's who adopt this very same racist conception. No doubt you will say they are not real Christians. This is where it appears you are guilty of the No True Scottsman Fallacy.Professor33 20:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

So you come to the defence of your namesake, Professor33? Are you in any way related?

Unfortunately you seem to be unaware that all the points raised by Gio above have already been sufficently dealt with. But hatred blinds a man to reason. Gio is not essentially correct but spilling a whole truck load of half-truths or complete fabrications.

Hitler not having spoken out? Have actually read historical books on this? And as far as not having anything to lose: Hitler was constantly worried that anti-Christian measures undertaken by his cronies could undermine the war effort. The "solution of the Church question" was postponed until after the Endsieg.

Have you read the article on Haeckel? What does it matter that social darwinism is/was common? Maybe adherence to Christianity in substance was falling down rapidly?

Being a Christian rests on believing that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ), as prophecied in the Old Testament. Jesus has to be a Jew from the house of David or he cannot be the Messiah. So thinking Jesus was an Aryan makes Christianity meaningless. Only "Positive Christianity" is left.

No doubt, there have been many Christians involved in bad things and that doesn't make them any less Christian. However, rejecting the basic tenets of the faith does make one a non-Christian. Neither Gio nor you have provided a basic and specifically Christian doctrine Hitler did actually adhere to.

As for evolving from "apes" - Hitler certainly believed that Aryans and the other races evolved from apes or whatever, as any good Darwinist would. He only believed that his race was the culturally productive and the divinely favoured one, the most fit for survival. (In 1945 he had changed his mind.)

So don't try to recycle the debate. Judging from Gio's brazen reposting of his former rubbish along with new litter, there's not much point in discussing with him.

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 21:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This talk-topic has turned in to a rehashing of the debates from the last few months. Its sheer length shows that the section on Hitler's religious beliefs should be pared down to the essentials and hived off to a separate article.--Shtove 22:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Professor. You are ofcourse correct. Str1977 is fond of making unsubstantiated assertions that lack support while claiming his opponents sourced and accurate claims are fabrications. But, I can cite my sources. When he is pressed to find support for his claims, he either fails to do so or they turn out to not to support what he claims they do. It’s true I have already provided an abundance of evidence to support my claims. He is correct in that sense, although he has never been able to deal with these facts. Denial and Dogmatism go hand in hand and blinds a man to reason. As far as his other claims about my supposed "hatred" "Mao is fun, etc" they are as absurd as they are false. Certainly a sign of desperation for not being able to speak to the merits of the actual argument, hence a focus these old tactics and logical fallacies. Perhaps doesn't realize that McCarthyism is no longer in vogue.

I see that Str1977 now denies that Hitler did not speak out publicly against Christianity. Oh really? Pretel, show us where if he did, then! Ofcourse he won't answer because he knows it's not true. Hitler never did, even once. Ofcourse, he will not provide evidence to support his claims, neither to defend his own argument, nor to refute mine. In its place we find the familiar refrain: "there is no use discussing." This is true but only because he lacks support, and needs a cop out to run and hide in the same way that he will for other issues like his defense of the Bible as not being contradictory by saying its not the time and place to explain, nor his statements in support of the Christian medieval Crusades, later modified as only really supporting the principal behind them.

Str1977 claims I have not been able to provide a single Christian believe that Hitler expressed. This is not true, unless one is blind and filters out all the obvious. I guess, though that according to Str1977 all these beliefs which Hitler did state are not really Christian beliefs?! Again, for the record Hitler stated his belief that Adam and Eve were created in God's image, in Heaven, Hell, a supreme being who created the universe, in Jesus as Christ, in life after death, special creation, original sin, expulsion from paradise, and divine judgment. Below I will give references to support each one of these statements of beliefs uttered by Hitler. But I guess none of these counts if one happens to belong to a brand of Christianity that is racist and anti-Semitic? This is age-old Christian view that other Christians are heresies and therefore not true Christians. It’s the classic No True Scotsman Fallacy. The truth is that there has been much study such as by the Scholar, and Professor of Jewish Studies' work: "The Aryan Jesus: How the Churches Nazified Germany" by Susannah Heschel, and Eli Black, professor of Jewish Studies at Dartmouth College and chair of the Jewish Studies Program. The scholarship shows how there was a sect of Christians organized in Germany that sought to create a synthesis of Christianity and National Socialism by declaring Jesus an Aryan, eliminating the Old Testament from the Christian Bible, and running an anti-Semitic propaganda institute. But, again, these Christians are not true Christians? The Christian Identity Church, or the strong historical connections between Christianity, the Catholic Church, and Nazism, the Fascist Government in Italy, and the Falangist/Francoist government in Spain are likewise not true Christians, eh? Ofcoruse the reality is that many modern neo-nazis, Ku Klux Klan members and other nationalist racists groups maintain a strong emphasis in belief in a Christian God and Christian fundamentalism. Perhaps you should review

• Clerical fascism, on the role of Christianity in European fascist movements between the world wars
• Nazism, on the role of Christianity in the German Nazi movements
• Dominionism, Dominion theology, and Christian Reconstructionism on fascistic tendencies in contemporary Christian Right movements and groups
• Christian Identity, on the militant right-wing movement linked by some to Neo-Nazi ideology.
• Theocracy
• Positive Christianity

But I wonder, if Hitler was not a Christian--how was he able to fool all dominant Christians of his day and time? I guess Str1977 must know something that the leaders in the Catholic Church at the time were not able to see for themselves!

The fact is that Hitler's Germany simply amalgamated state with church as in a theocracy. The religion was Christianity. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church and blindly followed all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical. This may not be a comfortable truth for you, but it’s the truth nonetheless.

Hitler, like some of the today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values." He liked corporeal punishment in home and school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration. While abortion was illegal in pre-Hitler Germany, he took it to new depths of enforcement, requiring all doctors to report to the government the circumstances of all miscarriages. He openly despised homosexuality and criminalized it.

Heinrich Himmler was the head of the much-feared SS. Himmler was a devout Catholic who attended mass regularly, and he ordered all SS troopers to make the following oath: "I swear before God this holy oath, that I shall give absolute confidence to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people."

Rudolph Hess was Hitler's longtime confidante (and Hitler's deputy Fuehrer until his bizarre flight across the lines), and Hitler dictated Mein Kampf to him. Hess was a Christian, and at Nuremberg he stated that "No matter what human beings do I shall some day stand before the judgment seat of the Eternal. I shall answer to Him, and I know he will judge me innocent".

Joseph Goebbels was Hitler's propaganda minister. Like Hitler, he was raised Catholic. He claimed that "Christ could not possibly have been a Jew", and in a radio broadcast in 1936, he proclaimed that "We have a feeling that Germany has been transformed into a great house of God, including all classes, professions and creeds, where the Fuhrer as our mediator stood before the throne of the Almighty."

Hermann Göring was head of the Luftwaffe and Hitler's second in command. He described himself as a Protestant, and of Hitler, he testified that "although he himself was a Catholic, he wished the Protestant Church to have a stronger position in Germany, since Germany was two-thirds Protestant."

Anti-Semitism has a long history within Christianity. The line of "anti-Semitic descent" from Luther to Hitler is "easy to draw," according to American historian Lucy Dawidowicz. See The War Against the Jews, 1933-1945. First published 1975; this Bantam edition 1986, p.23. ISBN 055334532X In her The War Against the Jews, 1933-1945, she writes that both Luther and Hitler were obsessed by the "demonologized universe" inhabited by Jews, with Hitler asserting that the later Luther, the author of On the Jews and Their Lies was the real Luther. Dawidowicz writes that the similarities between Luther's anti-Jewish writings and modern anti-Semitism are no coincidence, because they derived from a common history of Judenhass, which can be traced to Haman's advice to Ahasuerus, although modern German anti-Semitism also has its roots in German nationalism and Christian anti-Semitism, a foundation she says was laid by the Roman Catholic Church and "upon which Luther built." Are you now going to say that Luther was not a real Christian? If not and if Luther is a real Christian then why would Hitler follow and admire Luther if Hitler is was not a real Christian? You can't have it both ways.

You claim that Christianity depends on a line of descent of Jesus to royal blood from the Old Testament, however this is nonsense because this line of descent is traced through the father and the Christian belief is that Mary was virgin who gave birth to Jesus! So no genetic connection with the human father, thus no royal connection to the Old Testament. Christians belief Jesus to be the son of God and THAT is what Christian belief rests on. And, that is what Hitler believed. If Christians can believe things that are nonsensical then why do you deny Hitlers religious but nonsensical belief that Jesus was not a Jew but an Aryan? Religion does not need to make sense. Its a question of faith, right? Again, you can't have it both ways. Giovanni33 07:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well said, Giovanni. I don't think anything you are saying is controversial even though it may not be comfortable for certain people, understandably. For such folks, I'd hope that a healthy and open understanding of the dark side of Christianity is acknowleged. Aside from certain ideological similarities, the relationship between the Church and fascist movements in various countries has often been close. Another early example is Austria which developed a quasi-fascist authoritarian Catholic regime some call the "Austro-fascist" Ständestaat between 1934 and 1938. There is little debate over Slovakia, where the fascist dictator was a Catholic monsignor; and the Independent State of Croatia, where the fascist Ustashe identified itself as a Catholic movement. The Iron Guard in Romania identified itself as an Eastern Orthodox movement (with no connection to Roman Catholicism), and had particularly strong leanings toward clerical fascism. (See also Involvement of Croatian Catholic clergy with the Ustaša regime.)

The Vichy regime in France was also deeply influenced by the reactionary Catholic-influenced ideology of the Action Française. Many of its members were reactionary Catholics who were condemned but 1938 the condemnation was lifted. Conversely, many Catholic priests were persecuted under the Nazi regime, and many Catholic laypeople and clergy played notable roles in sheltering Jews during the Holocaust. So the picture is not one-sided, although I think Giovanni has acknowleged this. Fascist movements like Rexism in Belgium and the Christian Social Party also combined fascist and conservative populist Catholic elements. It seems rather convenient to simply say the Church's far right wing are really not real Christians. Again, its the No True Scotsman Fallacy. Hitler was a Christian, folks. Not your garden variety, but a right-wing fanatic characteristic of many that we find today.Professor33 18:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Hitler's Christian beliefs supported

Now, to back up every one of my points by quoting MK, Hitler's own words, with references below, my comments in parentheses:

"I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal."2 (Hitler admired religious figures).

"I thank Heaven that a portion of the memories of those days still remains with me. Woods and meadows were the battlefields on which the 'conflicts' which exist everywhere in life were decided."3 (Hitler believed in Heaven).

"I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party ... The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times ... How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all."4 (Hitler was inspired to become a radical anti-Semite by the Viennese Christian Social movement, whose attitudes are almost identical to the far-right American Christian fundamentalist movement today).

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."5 (Hitler obviously believed in a supreme being).

"Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be 'discovered' by an election"6 (Hitler was fond of paraphrasing the Bible (Mark 10:25 in this case), and he does this many, many times elsewhere in the book).

"The root of the whole evil lay, particularly in Schonerer's opinion, in the fact that the directing body of the Catholic Church was not in Germany, and that for this very reason alone it was hostile to the interests of our nationality."7 (affirming that Hitler's only real problem with his childhood religion was the fact that its power base was not in Germany).

"I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction."8 (the "divine court of the eternal judge" seems a rather strange idea from anyone but a Judeo-Christian, since Pagan and Eastern religions generally lack any such divine judgemental entity, to say nothing of atheism)

"Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image."9

"Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children."10 (recalling World War I).

"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe."11 (it would appear that Hitler agreed with modern "intelligent design" creationists on the existence of a Creator).

"Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the youth ... Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world ..."12 (Jerry Falwell? Is that you?)

"But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God"13 (note that when he says "images of God", he refers to racially pure Aryans; this sentence comes in the context of a diatribe against racial intermixing).

"While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order to win new followers for their doctrine-- an activity which can boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan faith in particular-- right here in Europe they lose millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious life or simply so their own ways. The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable."14 (Hitler agrees with George W. Bush that religion and morality are intertwined).

"Also noteworthy is the increasingly violent struggle against the dogmatic foundations of the various churches without which in this human world the practical existence of a religious faith is not conceivable ... The attack against dogmas as such, therefore, strongly resembles the struggle against the general legal foundations of a state, and, as the latter would end in a total anarchy of the state, the former would end in a worthless religious nihilism."15 (Hitler, trying to equate criticism of dogma to an assault on civilization)

"The result of all racial crossing is therefore in brief always the following: (a) Lowering of the level of the higher race; (b) Physical and intellectual regression and hence the beginning of a slowly but surely progressing sickness. To bring about such a development is, then, nothing else but to sin against the will of the eternal creator."16 (Hitler tries to define racial intermarriage as defiance of God's will, in exactly the way modern racists do, particularly in the southern American states; indeed, 40% of Alabama voters voted to keep interracial marriage illegal in November 2000)

"And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form. Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter, but only for a practical and profitable life in this world."17 (Hitler believes in the afterlife, and he agrees with modern Christian fundamentalists about the importance of religious matters over material matters)

"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation."18 (Hitler demonstrates the common anti-Semitic view that Jesus was an Aryan rather than a Jew, and glowingly described him as "the great founder of the new doctrine".

"The Jew almost never marries a Christian woman; it is the Christian who marries a Jewess ... The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew ... With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people."19 (Hitler echoes Martin Luther's thoughts on Satan and Jewry; note that Hitler openly admired Luther, who wrote the virulent anti-Semitic screed "On Jews And Their Lies", and the infamous Kristallnacht was committed on Luther's birthday. Also note that he reiterates his hatred of intermarriage, but this time on religious rather than racial grounds. He tends to use the terms "German" and "Christian" interchangeably, which makes sense since he believed that Jesus was an Aryan and that true Christianity recognized the supremacy of the Aryan race).

"The future of a movement is conditioned by the fanaticism, yes, the intolerance, with which its adherents uphold it as the sole correct movement, and push it past other formations of a similar sort ... absolute intolerance also provides long growth ... The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others."20 (Hitler explains why he thinks religious intolerance is good, agreeing in principle with modern right-wing Christian fundamentalists who bemoan that if they are not intolerant of diversity, their belief system will have no future).

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."21

"The characteristic thing about these people is that they rave about old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack."22 (Hitler's own words demonstrate clearly that despite the common myth that the religion of Nazism was Nordic paganism, he actually regarded the Nordic pagan revival movement with nothing but contempt and derision, and Rosenberg was obviously charting his own path).

"A man who knows a thing, who is aware of a given danger, and sees the possibility of a remedy with his own eyes, has the duty and obligation, by God, not to work 'silently,' but to stand up before the whole public against the evil and for its cure."23 (isn't it interesting that you could easily imagine many of these quotes coming from the mouth of a modern-day preacher?)

"By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious-dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence."24 (Hitler equates religious dogma to ethics and morality, again just like modern right-wing intolerant Christians)

"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."25 (Hitler believes in the Genesis story of expulsion from Paradise).

"The task of preserving and advancing the highest humanity, given to this earth by the benevolence of the Almighty, seems a truly high mission."26

"A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape."27 (Hitler believed that Aryans are holy and were created in God's "image", while other races evolved from apes, hence his hatred for racial mixing because it diluted God's image).

"It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world."28 (Hitler outlines some of his eugenics ideas; note that he described black humans as "Negroes" and white humans as "European humanity". Like the medieval European Christian conquerors, he obviously thought of black people as sub-human, and he often described Czechs as "sub-humans" as well)

"That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?"29 (Hitler believes that racial mixing is an extension of "original sin")

"It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."30 (again, he repeats his belief that Aryans come from God while other races evolved from apes).

"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god"31 (just for fun, try asking people whether quotes like this came from Jerry Falwell or Adolf Hitler).

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."32 (again Hitler repeats his belief that the Aryan race was created by God, and that it would be a sin to dilute it through racial intermixing with inferior races which evolved naturally).

"If the German nation wants to end a state of affairs that threatens its extermination in Europe, it must not fall into the error of the pre-War period and make enemies of God and the world; it must recognize the most dangerous enemy and strike at him with all its concentrated power. And if this victory is obtained through sacrifices elsewhere, the coming generations of our people will not condemn us."33 (he seems to have learned the lessons of the Biblical Old Testament well: God punishes the people when they disobey him, so they must not make an enemy of God)

"For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'"34

"we National Socialists must hold unflinchingly to our aim in foreign policy, namely to secure for the German people the land and soil to which they are entitled on this earth. And this action is the only one which, before God and or German posterity, would make any sacrifice of blood seem justified: before God, since we have been put on this earth with the mission of eternal struggle for our daily bread..."35 (again, Hitler tries to justify his actions as the will of God, as countless Christians have done before him).

"And so he advances on his fatal road until another force comes forth to oppose him, and in a mighty struggle hurls the heaven-stormer back to Lucifer. Germany is today the next great war aim of Bolshevism. It requires all the force of a young missionary idea to raise our people up again, to free them from the snares of this international serpent..."36 (Hitler explaining that the German people must send the "heaven-stormer" back to Hell).

2Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler, Volume 1, Chapter 1. 3Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 1. 4Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 2. 5Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 2. 6Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 3. 7Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 3. 8Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 5. 9Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 6. 10Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 7. 11Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 9. 12Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 10. 13Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 10. 14Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 10. 15Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 10. 16Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 11. 17Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 11. 18Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 11. 19Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 11. 20Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12. 21Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12. 22Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12. 23Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12. 24Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12. 25Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12. 26Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2. 27Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2. 28Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2. 29Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2. 30Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2. 31Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2. 32Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 10. 33Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 13. 34Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 13. 35Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 14. 36Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 14. 37Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2. CiaoGiovanni33 07:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

In response to the editor who said that Christianity creates Nazism (he removed his comment when I tried to post this response in an edit conflict): No, Christianity can simply serve as a willing vehical that is compatible with fascism as it is with almost any other religious-like ideology. Nazism could have existed without Christianity, but it flourished under it just the same.Giovanni33 08:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

"NIGGA"

Will someone remove "NIGGA" from the bottom of this article, after the succession box. I can't find it in the editor. Эйрон Кинни (t) 20:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed. It was in Template:Adolf Hitler. --Ezeu 20:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. It was really annoying. I see one of the same similar things on the Ronald Reagan article. I hate these. Эйрон Кинни (t) 07:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Time Magazine sucks

Why would they put him as person of the year? That's gay! Sure he was a fairly good leader, but he kills 11 million jews for no reason, excuse me, no REAL reason and he is the person of the year. Must've been a slow year.66.218.22.93 04:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

This was before World War II and before the international community was aware of the impending Holocaust. He had fooled the world after the Czechoslovakian conferences, including, and possibly the most notable, Neville Chamberlain. Эйрон Кинни (t) 07:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The point of the "man of the year" title is to recognize the person who had the most impact on the world, good or bad during that year. It is not meant as an politically motivated award. Kind of interesting they chose Rudolph Giuliani over Osama Bin Laden for 2001, as it is clear that Bin Laden had a much larger impact on the world than did Guiliani. They most likely did so to avoid irrational emotional backlash from the American public. Nazrac π 20:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Hitler Relative

I heard on the History Channel the other day that a relative of Hitler volunteered for service on the Eastern Front, was a Signal Corps officer and was eventually captured and killed by the Russians. I was wondering if anyone knew this guy's name?

Intro

"By then, Hitler's racial policies had culminated in the genocide of 11 million people, including about six million Jews, in what is now known as The Holocaust."

my suggest is to change it to:

"By then, Hitler's racial policies culminated in a genocide which most of his victims were Jews. This genocide now known as The Holocaust."

What can we learn about Hitler from the fact that X and not Y million people died in the genocide. Why does the number of other genocides does not mentioned in any into of other dictators who lead them.

I have looked on Adolf Hitler on servel encyclopedias and those numbers do not appear in the all article. (not just in the intro).

• Britannica
• Columbia
• Encarta

--Haham hanuka 16:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I looked it up. This information is embarrassingly incorrect. The Encyclopedia Britannica writes: Although Catholics, Poles, homosexuals, Roma (Gypsies), and the handicapped were targeted for persecution, if not outright extermination, the Jews of Germany, Poland, and the Soviet Union were by far the most numerous among the victims; in German-occupied Europe some 6,000,000 Jews were killed during the war. The sufferings of other peoples were only less when measured in their numbers killed. Encarta writes: Because the Allies halted Germany's forces, Hitler's global ambitions were not realized; however, of the approximately 18 million Jews in the world, one-third were killed in what came to be known as the Holocaust. The great majority of European Jews perished, a fact that Hitler boasted of in his last testament.

The term Hollocaust has a narrow and a wider meaning. Today mostly the hollocaust encompases most death caused by the regime and not just the Jewish ones. Agathoclea 17:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

What we can learn from those numbers is that Hitler and his regime were mass murderers in the tune of 11 million in a very short period of time. Its important to keep in and the way its currently worded is better than your suggestion.Giovanni33 08:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Someday, Haham will give up. That day is not today. --Golbez 09:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps he should be warned that he daily violates the consensus of many talk pages, while refering to these talk pages. All this is very time consuming and does not foster the quality of Wikipedia. gidonb 19:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

But is there a reference or citation for the figure of 11 million? And when did the religious term Holocaust become so, erm ... Universal? This question has been put before, without answer. I do foster the quality of Wikipedia and am not giving up today or tomorrow. I am Shtove 23:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

See for example references above for the 6 million Jewish victims and the article The Holocaust for the breakdown of the 5 million non-Jews. For the concept The Holocaust and the alternative Shoah, also please see the relevant articles. gidonb 01:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

picture

I've noticed the portrait of Hitler being changed a few times. I prefer the military one, personally since Hitler was first and formost a militarist. But why does it keep changing?Giovanni33 02:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

apparently the lisencing terms were unclear. Agathoclea 07:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It was on commons before, then it got deleted from commons because it didn't cite a source. Then it was re-uploaded here under GFDL - which is definitely not the correct license, I found a source but there is no clear copyright info there. If someone wants to try to figure out how to fix this, have a look at: Image talk:Adolf Hitler Bigger.jpg. The image hasn't been deleted yet, but will probably be deleted soon - so I replaced it with another image so that the page doesn't end up with a broken image yet again. I have no preference for the currrent image, if someone can find something nicer feel free to replace it.--Konstable 02:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Small Name Change

German is my Second language and Main Kampf translates "My Fight". Thought I'd change it. User:Lucky foot

Dear Lucky, you are right but also wrong. Indeed "Fight" would be the more common and closer translation, but "struggle" is also correct and it captures the whole range of connotations better than the mere "fight". Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 16:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Scholder

In regard to Klaus Scholder, I have reposted a sentence that had been deleted before for lack of a reference. Now, there is a reference, the scan of which can be found here: [2] Having done that I have deleted the whole paragraph, since this controversy requires a detailed treatment which cannot be attained in this overview article. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 16:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)