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Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 5

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Anti-semitism?

I've heard allegations that he was anti-semitic, is this true?

Karl Ossietz?

Has anyone heard of Karl Ossietz? I've recently placed this article up for votes for deletion, because I can't find any good information on him via Internet searches. I'd appreciate any info anyone has to add at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Karl Ossietz. Thanks. func(talk) 23:17, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I found him mentioned in an Allen Churchill book from 1979 called Eyewitness Adolf Hitler. I believe it was from a letter that this Karl Ossietz was mentioned as Hitler's personal astrologer. Eyewitness

Uniball?

So is that saying about Hitler having only one testicle an urban legend or does it have basis in reality?

See Hitler has only got one ball Mintguy (T) 02:26, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I linked to the page about the the specific term for the annexion of Austria (Anschluss) in the article header as well. While the "Anschluss" page is not a great article yet, I think the topic is important enough (as one of the main causes of the war) to deserve a link in the header... - Marcika 00:15, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

npov

Hitler’s Mein Kampf is not widely available in Germany. His legacy, as interpreted by some historians, has caused him to be one of the most denounced men in history. Other historians, however, point out that Hitler's attempt to improve the economic and political standing and conditions of his people and how he went about it, was, in essence, no different than that of many other leaders in history and thus this denouncement is hypocritical and not completely objective.

How was Hitler "no different" than leaders like Churchill or FDR? At least they didn't gas people in attempting to improve economic and political standing. Who were the historians who said this denouncement is hypocritical and not not objective? This all sounds very stupid to me and should be edited. Wareware 04:44, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The paragraph is completely NPOV. The historians you are scoffing at are referred to as "revisionist" generally, and there are lots of them. If you want the article to say "Hitler was a horrible, horrible man, worst guy ever, yadayadayada" your in the wrong place. Please review NPOV. If you have some sources you'd like to cite showing some general sentiment regarding Hitler, feel free. Sam [Spade] 14:55, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Can you name some of these revisionists? Are they legitimate revisionist historians, or are they merely writers of revisionist history? Jayjg 16:09, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Of course I can, David Irving, Ernst Zündel, James Bacque, Ernst Mayo, etc... If thats not a long enough list for you, I'm sure a few dozen more can be come up w if everybody pitches in ;) And of course you don't think their legitamate! Revisionist history is a word for historians people don't like. The point is, not everybody is unanimous is saying Hitler was wicked beyond all measure. Sam [Spade] 22:11, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and BTW, my opinion, that the guy was demented from too much methamphetimines, qualudes, and syphillis, and even if he had been mentally with it wouldn't have known much about the micro-management anyhow due to fuhrerprinzp, is a fairly common take also, even amongst "respected" historians (to be frank I don't know if I respect any historians, but thats a story for another day ;) Sam [Spade] 22:15, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm not surprised that some of these people are also holocaust denialists. Wareware 22:17, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Their all holocaust denialists, I went to the holocaust denial page and copied a few names down quick ;) Sam [Spade] 22:27, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Got it. Editing to reflect. Jayjg 23:09, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)


He wife?

Nazi mysticism

For who ever removed this reference, have you read the article, or the refrences for it? I can give you reams of info on the subject. As far as Hitler or Nazism being popular in some parts of the Islamic world... of course I can find some cites, but is it really necessary? Do you actually dispute that? Sam [Spade] 13:43, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I just saw Andries edit. As far as how many people worship Hitler as a deity, or view him as an Avatar of Vishnu, I am concerned about the possibility of verifying that. I know that the concept has been involved with both Hindu nationalism (a huge movement in India), with South american politics, and of course with Black metal, and neo-nazi Ásatrú scene. Quantifying this seems to me a difficult matter. Sam [Spade] 14:13, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I did read the links. There's not really much there about Hitler being 'worshipped as a deity'. Just a reference to one guy, Devi, viewing him as an Avatar of Vishnu. You also say that you are concerned about the possibility of verifying it. In that case, it shouldn't be said. I also think this whole thing seems unconnected with Hitler, the man. And that's what this article's about. The page Nazi mysticism links into the Nazism page. Those who want to read about it can find it there, where it belongs. Unless you have evidence of Hitler encouraging or supporting attempts to deify him, that comment does not belong here. (Oh, and Hitler didn't reign either, only monarchs (kings, queens, emperors, etc.) reign.) jguk 14:55, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Savitri Devi isn't a guy, she was a girl, I get the impression you didn't read very thoroughly. For example, see Miguel Serrano. Theres no problem verifying that some believe it, the problem is in quantifying the sheer numbers. Sam [Spade] 15:03, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And that's your problem, not mine. And I find you calling me buck-o offensive and ask you to be more civil towards me. There's no reason why we cannot disagree civilly. You say can't begin to quantify numbers: 1,000s, 10,000s, 100,000s, more? IMHO you'd need at least tens of thousands worshipping him as a deity to make it noteworthy enough for an article. If you can't support your assertion with verifiable evidence of its noteworthiness, the assertion needs to go until you can. I ask you to leave the article as it is - provide evidence to support your views, and if it is deemed reliable enough by the wikicommunity, your statement can go back in.

The fact that I don't have a handy link to census data on an obscure cult like this one in no way makes it any less notable that the man is worshipped by some, and that many see a link between Nazism and the occult. Since you seem disinterested in my copious references, I have requested page protection. it would be nice if you researched a bit, but I suppose I can't force you. Sam [Spade] 16:10, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have added by point by point comments for each of your references (apart from the books, which I obviously can’t get at from my laptop) in bold. It is a crude way, but one that is effective in separating my comments from yours. They show that there is a very small number of people who argue that Hitler is an avatar of Vishnu. They do not quantify the number, but that number seems to be very small. Indeed, one of the articles you quoted was called ‘Nutty Nazis’. It is clear that this is a sub subtopic at the very most.

There is no disagreement that Nazi mysticism or Esoteric Hitlerism exist. And it is right that Wikipedia has articles covering them. But you have so far failed to prove that a significant number of people worship Hitler as a deity for that comment to remain in this article. It is not relevant to Hitler. I will add under ‘Related articles’ Esoteric Hitlerism. Nazi mysticism properly belongs as a link off Nazism rather than Hitler, and quite rightly it is already there.

I have now spent quite a bit of time reading your references. Many of which had little to offer on the subject at hand. If you want to quote further references to me, I should be grateful if you would ensure they are to the point, and in particular that they offer some sort of quantification of how many people worship Hitler as a deity. Until and unless you provide evidence of quantification, please do not reinsert your statement. You have not yet proven that it is relevant enough to Hitler, the man, to have in this article. Finally, perhaps we can keep our disagreement on this talk page rather than reverting each other. I agree that if you provide evidence to prove your claim is notable (which would include some quantification of those worshipping Hitler as a deity), your comment can return. I ask you agree that until you have done so, the comment stays out. jguk 16:53, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I removed the point by point critiques, you can place them outside the links section itself if you care to, thank you very much. Sam [Spade] 18:33, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
OK, I was only trying to save space on this talk page. I have added the point by point rebuttal at the end of a 'clean' copy of your references. jguk 19:34, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hoorah! Sam [Spade] 00:25, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

References

Books

  • Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, 2001, ISBN 0814731554 (reviews 1 2)
  • Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival by Joscelyn Godwin, 1996, ISBN 0932813356
  • Himmler's Crusade: The Nazi Expedition to Find the Origins of the Aryan Race by Christopher Hale, Wiley 2003. ISBN 0471262927
  • The Unknown Hitler, Wulf Schwartzwaller, Berkeley Books 1990
  • Hitler's Priestess: Savitri Devi, the Hindu-Aryan Myth and Neo-Nazism, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, 1998. ISBN 0814731104

A point by point rebuttal by jguk follows (the rebuttals are in bold):

  • Nazi mysticism I am not disputing that this should be an article. And this article is correctly linked into Nazism. The article contains nothing to suggest it is anything but a sub subtopic for Hitler at the very most. This article is a summary article outlining the main features about Hitler, the man. You have not shown your point is notable enough to appear in this particular article.
  • Wewelsburg This article is about a castle. There is nothing in it to support the assertion that enough people deify Hitler for that point to be made in this article. In fact, there is nothing about deification in this article at all.
  • The Nexus (journal)This article is about a magazine. The only possible reference to Hitler being a deity in this article is a reference to a website called Priestess of Hitler:Savitri Devi by someone called Kerry Bolton. This article lends no support to your assertion.
  • Lanz von LiebenfelsThis article contains no assertions about Hitler being worshipped as a deity, not even by Lanz von Liebenfels, let alone anyone else. This article lends no support to your assertion
  • Karl Maria WiligutThis article makes no reference to Hitler, worshipping or deities. It lends no support to your assertion.
  • Nicholas Goodrick-ClarkeThis article makes one fleeting reference to a book called Hitler’s priestess, but says nothing about it. Is it about Savitri Devi??? No references to worshipping or deity (except to the book if you claim that is such a reference). Again, there is nothing in this article to support your assertion.
  • Julius EvolaNo mention of Hitler, let alone worshipping him as a deity. Again, this article does not support your assertion.
  • CosmotheismThe only reference to Hitler is in the phrase: Pierce's plan for white divinity was similar to Adolf Hitler's vision for the Herrenvolk. No mention of worshipping Hitler as a deity here either. Again, this article does not support your assertion
  • Kalki#NazismNo reference to Hitler, let alone worshipping him as a deity. This article does not support your assertion.
  • Savitri DeviThe closest you’ve come up with so far for any justification is the reference in this article to her proclaiming him an avatar of the Hindu god Vishnu. Not sure whether it is entirely fair to call this worshipping Hitler as a deity, but if I do count her in your support comment, you’ll have so far shown 1 person worshipping Hitler as a deity.
  • Miguel SerranoNo reference in this article to worshipping Hitler as a deity. This article does not support your assertion. I have not read his books, but judging by their titles, for now, I’ll put him in your support comment: total 2.
  • Sam, did you write that unrelated remark about Nazi Mysticism in Kalki?? I think you are a nice guy but you have strange ideas on Nazi Mysticism and the connection between Hitler and Kalki. And by the way, I support Jongarrettuk's revert. I think it was extremely rare that Hitler was worshipped as a deity, only Savitri Devi is a documented case. I personally have strong doubt that there ever was something as Nazi Mysticism. May be pseudo religion, and Himmler believed in the occult and had a mysticism hobby, but he was only one person. There were far more practicing Christians in the Nazi party than mystics but was not a Christian party. Andries 00:38, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Sam, I am thinking about a request for comments because of the link to Nazi Mysticism. You keep inserting this wikilink in spite of Jongarettuk's reverts and my support of her/his revert. I would have little problem with a wikilink to a possible article Religious elements of Nazism here but real Nazi Mysticism is too rare and the word mysticism is too strong to be mentioned here. I agree that Nazism had aspects of a pseudo-religion (or even was a pseudo-religion) and this could be mentioned here. Andries 13:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Books

  • Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, 2001, ISBN 0814731554 (reviews 1 This does not add anything more. I accept having Devi and Serrano in your column2)I am not sure how a review called Nutty Nazis of a book is meant to help you show that this is notable enough to go into an article about Hitler. The sentence ‘They revere Hitler and those who fell with him in World War II as martyrs to a holy cause.’ shows that, according to the author, most Nutty Nazis revere Hitler. That is nothing like worshipping him as a deity. Other sentences include: ‘They think that if they can first persuade people of a lot of false and silly notions, they will have an easier time of persuading them, eventually, of the truth….and, by the way, Hitler was the ninth Avatar of the God Vishnu, and many non-Whites in India worshipped him as a God, so he's all right……It is hard to persuade anybody of such false and kooky beliefs.’ There is a small list of figureheads in the Chapter 5 summary, that does boost your numbers though. I can add 15 to your total, and am willing to assume that they have a few followers. But we’re still not up to the level where this is notable enough FOR THIS ARTICLE.
  • Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival by Joscelyn Godwin, 1996, ISBN 0932813356
  • Himmler's Crusade: The Nazi Expedition to Find the Origins of the Aryan Race by Christopher Hale, Wiley 2003. ISBN 0471262927
  • The Unknown Hitler, Wulf Schwartzwaller, Berkeley Books 1990

Complaints

In the first part of the article, there is no reason to say that Hitler was "reported to have committed suicide," when the suicide has been documented by many eyewitnesses and finally confirmed with the opening of the KGB files on the disposal and eventual total destruction of his remains.

The section on "Economics and Culture" is couched in terms that are far too positive and sympathetic. It also uses the term "civil improvement," which to American readers, at least, does not clearly denote public works projects, but sounds rather more like an improvement in society.

The sentence, " Hitler's health initiatives for ethnic Germans were successful and progressive," has a vaguely völkisch flavor and makes it sound as if he were a benevolent ruler; further, it is vague to the point of meaninglessness, since there is no explanation of the term "health initiatives."

The sentence, " Hitler's policies emphasised the importance of family life: men were the breadwinners, women’s priorities being Church, Kitchen and Children," similarly sounds as if it were written by a right-wing admirer of Kinder, Kuche, Kirche (in American terms: barefoot and pregnant) -- in other words, a blatant sexist.

The next sentence, "Excellence was encouraged in all spheres," may be true in some very limited sense, but I don't think Wiki should put itself in the position of making such a blandly positive statement about the greatest mass murderer of all time who in the process of "encouraging excellence" burned and banned great literature, confined German art to puerile representiveness and caused many of the country's leading artists and scientists to flee to the U.S. and other countries.

User:sca 8nov04

practically nobody agrees about Hitlers death, except they al wanted him dead, Even stalin doubted the account. The eventual total destruction of his remains is even more eveidence that something fishy occured. Overall, I find your complaints to be of the NPOV nature of the article, not something that aught to be "fixed". Sam [Spade] 20:29, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You ought to say ought, not aught, which has a different meaning and is archaic.

You ought to capitalize the beginnings of your sentences. As to "nobody" agreeing about Hitler's death -- you ought to have your head examined.

User:sca
Oi... [1][2][3].
Sam [Spade] 02:13, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hitler Pictures

Why are all of the pictures of him relatively sympathetic? Although it's also bias to always show him screaming at a microphone, please show both if you will.

Well, they're good pics. If you can find a public domain or GFDL shot of him screaming at a microphone, please supply it. Thanks! --Golbez 02:46, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

Protestant Christianity?

I had always thought Hitler was Catholic by background. CJCurrie 03:32, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Dispute zentrum

"intimidated" in describing the actions of the Centre Party,Germany is disputed and the dispute broadens to the error in claiming on its' page that the Catholic Centre Party (Zentrumspartei) was " dissolved by Hitler ". See also Pope Pius XII .Flamekeeper 09:22, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sir John Wheeler-Bennett in The Nemesis of Power-The German Army in Politics 1918-1945 indexes the Centre Party's condonation of Nazism after Hitler gained the Chancellorship and came therefore to power in 1933 . Wheeler-Bennett says that the Centre , whatever its mental reservations ,condoned his Government by voting for him .Flamekeeper 10:39, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

November Republic

I came across in some writings Hitler referring to the November Republic. Now I assume (and am pretty confident) that this is the same as the Weimar Republic, but I wanted to have this confirmed before I went ahead and made a redirect. I assume someone here can back me up (or correct me if I'm mistaken). I was going to write this at the Weimar talk page, but this one has tons more traffic. -R. fiend 20:58, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

correct. This was Hitler's derogatory term for the republic that was founded after the defeat in November that he attributed to traitors, communists and Jews. Andries 21:03, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. Made it a redirect. -R. fiend 21:13, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hitler's Death and Controversies Surrounding It

I saw this on Unsolved Histories on Discovery Channel, it's title is Hitler in the Andes.

They said that the FBI had an eleven year investigation of wheter or not he died. Seeing that much of the information available that time were propaganda, wheter it was from the Allies, the Nazis, the Russian, and several other parties, do anyone here has any info or fact about this investigation?

Oh yeah, if Hitler's body was cremated, how can there be a Soviet autopsy that revealed that he has only one testicle? Just curious. --Vandal Unknown 19:58, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Maybe you'd like to read the article on Hitler's death jguk 20:30, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ah, thank you, though I didn't find the link in the "Related Topics" list. Sorry for wasting your time. --202.162.199.252 14:45, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Proposed article split

This article is overweight and needs to be split into 2 in order to guarantee editorial freedom. Put your proposals here, and I will hopefully do the split on Sunday on the basis of consensus reached. I am putting a note at the top of the article to let readers participate in the debate.

Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive

Seriously, people, do you really need three adjectives praising Hitler's supposedly wonderful speaking style? Strunk and White says cut down on the adjectives, and this man is Hitler, not Tony fucking Robbins. -- JG

Well he did persuade the german military into doing all that.

Yes he was an amazing speaker and an insipration, but he was a horrible man.

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Adolf_Hitler article:

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  • In Nuremberg, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...se interested in the [[History of Germany]] overall. After Adolf Hitler came to power, Nuremberg was made a national shrine by the ...
  • In PR Watch, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...ents in Bejing's Tiananman Square with neo-nazi claims that Adolf Hitler did not kill millions of European residents. [http://www.di...
  • In Toni Schumacher, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...st hated man in France, and Schumacher managed to beat even Adolf Hitler (who finished second) into first place....
  • In Codename Garbo, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...Operation Fortitude]] an effort that successfully convinced Adolf Hitler and many of the German high command to believe that the All...
  • In 1948 Arab-Israeli War, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...es. An increase in Jewish immigration following the rise of Adolf Hitler led to the so-called [[Great Uprising]] from [[1936]] to [[...
  • In Libertarian National Socialist Green Party, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...or, the National Socialist German Worker's Party (NSDAP) of Adolf Hitler, 1933&ndash;1945. Despite our identification with many part...
  • In IMZ-Ural, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...tov-Ribbentrop Pact]]), against the German Third Reich, and Adolf Hitler, the ruthless dictator of Nazi Germany. Joseph Stalin order...
  • In Moselle, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...''Gau Westmark'' at the armistice of [[June 22]], [[1940]]. Adolf Hitler considered Moselle and Alsace part of Germany....
  • In List of frequently misused English words, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...amous'' is to be of exceedingly ill repute. **''Standard'': Adolf Hitler was an infamous dictator....
  • In Doctors' Trial, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...ncil - not guilty * [[Karl Brandt]] - Personal physician to Adolf Hitler; Gruppenfuehrer in the SS and Generalleutnant (Major Genera...
  • In Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...airman of the Association of German Industrialists, and the Adolf Hitler Spende, a political fundraising organisation for the Nazis....
  • In Bucky O'Hare, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ... led by a vast computer system known as KOMPLEX, resembling Adolf Hitler in many ways. Bucky O' Hare was the Captain of a mammal fri...
  • In Eastern Front (WWII), can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...lin itself held useful post war strategic assets, including Adolf Hitler and the German atomic bomb programme....
  • In Walter Warlimont, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...er of the high officer caste in favor of the German Führer: Adolf Hitler. On the basis of this memorandum, Hitler developed the “Ob...
  • In Thomas Sangster, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ... Robert Nobel''' *''Hitler: The Rise of Evil'' (2003) .... Adolf Hitler (10 yrs)...
  • In Rudolf von Sebottendorf, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...;nchen Deutsche Arbeiterpartei]] (DAP). It was the DAP that Adolf Hitler was introduced to in 1919. By [[April 1]], [[1920]], the DA...
  • In La caduta degli dei, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ... how so called "German Upper Class Nobility" first resented Adolf Hitler, then accepted him, and at last embraced him....
  • In History of MoveOn.org, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...d (neither of which became a finalist) had compared Bush to Adolf Hitler, a comparison that conservatives described as "political ha...
  • In Glossary of WWII German military terms, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ... volunteer *Führer -- leader, title given to exclusively to Adolf Hitler: Mein Fuhrer, Der Führer...
  • In Breitspurbahn, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...ink to that site, too, thanx</i> Im Deutschen Reich plante Adolf Hitler eine (die) Breitspurbahn mit einer Spurweite von 3000 mm. M...
  • In Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...schaft was the German Federal Railways from 1920-1945. When Adolf Hitler died the DRG (as Der Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesselschaft was a...

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:26, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

NPOV

Please keep in mind the neutrality policy. Hitler is widely regarded as having been among the worlds most successful oraters. The purpose of this article is to inform, not to convince people Hitler was bad. If they don't think he's bad already, reading a biased article won't convince them any. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 16:39, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


It is not a question of trying to promote certain feelings about Hitler. I am willing to try to find language that people can agree on but I have much more substantive objections. The sentence: "A gifted, charismatic orator possessed of a profound personal presence", has two significant problems.

First, the perhaps more minor problem is that, while Hitler was undoubtedly a sucessful and charismatic orator, there is often associated with oration a certain lyrical and literary quality that Hitler's oration lacked. I would not refer to him as a inherently gifted orator. Hitler spoke with great emotion and fervor, many would say vengeful rage, about topics that resonated with the German public. However I know of no historian or writer who thinks that Hitler had a great command of the German language in the way that Churchill or Lincoln did of theirs. Hitler himself often wrote his speeches, at least early in his career, and, like his writing, they are almost universally thought to have little or no literarly value. I dont think an assessment of writing ability is really such a subjective thing. If Hitler wrote like Churchill, German literary circles would not deny it. Admittledly, this is somewhat of a semantic problem with what one means by oration.

The second more substantive objection relates to Hitlers personal presence. I am not going to argue that this is purely a subjective notion. Certain people, like Martin Luther King for example, have been almost universally recognized to have had great charisma in private settings. Certain more sinister characters like Saddam Hussein are also fairly widely seen to have been personally charasmatic. The problem with applying this sort of language to Hitler is that one of the things he is known for is to have been, at least among a large minority, a very disappointing person to meet personally. Even Mussolini found him to be a very ascetic and somewhat withdrawn character. Hitler was also known for doing very poorly in social cirlces and he was not someone who was known, at least while he lacked power, to have had much of any sexual attractiveness to either sex. He had great difficulty rising above Corporal in the first World War despite a record of some distinction. Some think this was due to a bad psychological evaluation but it is almost certainly due to a lack of command presence. It is just a fact that over the course of Hitler's life many people found him to be repulsive or a non-entity, and this really affected his early life. Obviously this is only part of the story and he was undoubtedly charismatic in a sense. However he had to overcome a sort of lack of attractiveness in his personality that manifested itself over the course of his entire life. This is not someone who I would refer to as one who is "possessed of a profound personal presence". --Wtmgeo 17:31, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

We largely agree. In refering to his "profound personal presence", I ment his speech giving abilities. In that area, he is unmatched, regardless of his theoretical eloquence (I have heard both Hitler and Churchill give plenty of speeches, and Churchill has nothing on Hitler, regardless of vocabulary ;) Lets try finding a woring we can all agree to. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 17:57, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have used the words "highly animated and charismatic". I could use language like "captivating" or "stirring", but for the reasons I have mentioned, I might shy away from a term like eloquence. I should say that I actually quite like the turn of phrase "possessed of a profound personal presence" and I understand that it applies to Hitler as a public figure and speaker. Maybe it could come later in relation to his speeches during his rise to power. By the way Churchill won the Nobel prize for literature and, while this was mostly for his history of WW2, it was also for a lifetime of literary achievement, including his oratory. --Wtmgeo 18:52, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Its funny this would come up, because I have an enormous amount of WWII related speeches on MP3. I'm sure many have outdone me, but I've heard speeches (especially the more famous ones) by Churchill, FDR and Hitler an amazing amount of times (I play all my MP3's on shuffle). Anyhow, their talents are best interpreted by the effects they had on their intended audience, their respective publics, rather than their effects on us, or other critics. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 21:51, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bal Thackery and Hitler

To the anonymous poster who keeps adjusting the Thackeray reference:

(1) The reference to Thackery is *entirely* appropriate for the section of the article which concerns Hitler's legacy. You have claimed that "no indian group or political leader supports Hitler's philosophy or ideology", but Thackeray's own words suggest otherwise. Here are a few quotes from an AsiaWeek article, dated 1995:

"BOMBAY'S BALASHAHEB "BAL" THACKERAY, 68, does not object to the assertion that he is a demagogue - he openly revels in it. A short time after telling an Indian newspaper that he wanted to be the "Hitler of India" he repeated the claim - with pride - to Asiaweek."

[...]

"[Interviewer]: You recently described yourself as the Hitler of Bombay, and you have expressed a desire to be the Hitler of India. Is that correct?

[BT]: Why not? I am a great admirer of Hitler, and I am not ashamed to say so! I do not say that I agree with all the methods he employed, but he was a wonderful organizer and orator, and I feel that he and I have several things in common. Look at the amount of good we have done in just six months in Maharashtra. Actually, we have too much sham-democracy in this country. What India really needs is a dictator who will rule benevolently, but with an iron hand."

Check out [www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/95/0922/nat5.html] for the full interview.

A few years ago, when he was trying to pass himself off as a "moderate", Thackeray backed away from statements like these (or claimed he was misinterpreted). Notwithstanding which, it would be a difficult task to gloss over the presence of at least some support for "Hitler's philosophy or ideology" in the quote referenced above. </understatement mode off>

(2) Given that a reference to Thackeray is appropriate, it also seems appropriate to mention that he leads Shiv Sena, a right-wing Hindu nationalist party which embraces the principles of Hindutva, and has become even more militant in support of these principles since the BJP's defeat last year. (In passing, I can only imagine that Shiv Sena's own drubbing in the recent Maharashtra poll will push it even further toward its core constituency on this issue.)

If you want to mention that *not all* of supporters of Hindutva agree with Thackeray's views on Hitler, that might be fine. (Though in that case it should also be noted that *many* authors have drawn parallels between Hindutva and fascism.)

(3) This isn't really relevant to the article at hand, but I might add in passing that Thackeray's support for the destroyers of the Ayodhya mosque, and his party's general policy towards India's Muslim population, have some parallels with the conduct of the Nazi regime toward minority groups.

Comparing modern leaders to Hitler is usually a cop-out, but since Thackeray himself has invited the comparison ... well, let's just say it seems appropriate under the circumstances. CJCurrie 00:41, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Its beyond slanderous to claim that the attitude of Hindutva towards Muslims is somehow on par with Nazi policies towards minority groups.

Which is not what I was claiming, either in the main body of the article or in this dicussion. I have read opinion pieces which describe Hindutva as a perversion of Hinduism, and as having been directly inspired by Hitler and Mussoloni; I am not, however, in a position to give authoritative comment on this controversy one way or the other. I *did* claim that (i) Bal Thackeray, who leads a Hindutva party, has expressed admiration of Hitler, and (ii) that the Shiv Sena's policy toward minority groups has "some parallels" with the policies of the Nazi regime. I stand by both of these comments, though in the interests of keeping this discussion on topic I would agree to set the second point aside. CJCurrie 02:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In the context of this article, its a gross exaggeration. The Nazis had an explicitly racist and malicious agenda of systemized exclusion, revocation of citizenship, and ultimate elimination with regards to the Jews and other undersirables.

The BJP has advocated nothing of the sort towards the Islamic community, and has mainly pushed for a Uniform Civil Code and called for Muslims to do more to assimilate within mainstream Indian society.

This beside the point -- I wasn't talking about the BJP, nor did I accuse the Hindutva movement as a whole of endorsing Thackeray's praise of Hitler. CJCurrie 02:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is in fact the diametric opposite of the Nazi regime's disposition towards the Jews, whom it deliberately attempted to exclude and eventually destroy. Even the Shiv Sena, which is far more extreme than the BJP, has not voiced sentiment that could be construed as aiming at the extermination of the Muslims on par with the Nazi atrocities.

As far as the Ayodhya issue is concerned, Im not going to get into a long-winded debate over the subject, but lets just say that attempting to build a temple on what is one of the most holiest sites in Hinduism is a far cry from Krstallnacht.

Its not simply that not *all* of Hindutva followers are sympathetic towards Hitler, there isnt even a minority which is. Mainstream Hindutva organizations like the RSS and VHP have never published anything that can even remotely be construed as being supportive of Hitler's philosophy of genocide and discrimination. To conflate the fact that Thackeray is an admirer of Hitler with his party's acceptance of Hindutva is simply shading the truth.

So make a case in the main article that not all (or even many, as the case may be) supporters of Hindutva follow Thackeray on this point. This still doesn't nullify the description of Shiv Sena as "right-wing Hindu nationalist" and "Hindutva", nor does it make such a description inappropriate in this article. CJCurrie 02:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? CJCurrie 02:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have a thought. This thought is that people who primarily want to make points about politics and politicians in India should find another place on Wikipedia to do so. References to Hitler are a fine way to strike ones political opponents over the head or to put ones foot in ones mouth, as this guy Bal Thackery has evidently done, but what relevance do they have to a very short biography of Hitler? Why dont you create another page titled something like "Hitler as a modern political device", and take your debate there. --Wtmgeo 06:23, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's relevant to section dealing with Hitler's legacy, and to the choice of wording therein. I realize it's a bit odd to have a discussion this long concerning the inclusion or exclusion of four or five words in the main article, but the basic point is on-topic.
Anyway, I've thought of a compromise: what if we just describe the Shiv Sena as "right-wing Hindu nationalist" without referencing Hindutva? CJCurrie 22:11, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hitler's testicles

This article has a section "Medical health .... Hitler's medical health has long been the subject of debate, and he has variously been suggested to suffer ... and a missing left testicle.". Is this last item from valid medical evidence or other genuine reports? Or does it only refer to the common vulgar song "Hitler's only got one ball ..."? I see no purpose in merely commemorating an obscene traditional popular song here. (Even if the report is valid, it may refer to cryptorchidism rather than to complete absence.) Anthony Appleyard 08:11, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Allegedly, it goes back to an autopsy performed supposedly after the Russians discovered the body in Berlin. However, accounts are so varied, it's almost hard to know what to believe. Some accounts say Hitler's body was never recovered, others say that only a skull fragment was recovered, and another said his body was burned in the street and the Russians only found the charred corpse. But then again there are those who think Hitler escaped to South America, and that the U.S. State Department issued a wanted poster depicting Hitler with different hair styles, etc. on several occasions...even as late as 15 years after WWII ended. Who knows? —ExplorerCDT 08:19, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
My German friend insists he fled to Austria, where he died peacefully of old age. The testicle bit was claimed even before his death, and was allegedly "proven" by that dubious russian autopsy you refered to. It should stay, but we shouldn't give it much respect either. I recommend you guys come help out over on Hitler's Death. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 10:26, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If there's no evidence, there's no fact. If no one has a reliable source that can be verified (i.e. official documentation of some sort), then the one-ball thing is nothing but rumor. Looking at the entry on Catherine The Great, I don't see any mention of her rumored sexual prediliction for horses - and for good reason; unverifiable rumors are out of place in an objective evaluation - so there wouldn't seem to be any point in leaving in rumors about any other famous / infamous person either, except in intentional violation of neutral POV to discredit the subject. It should just be stricken, as should the other rumors, until such time as someone can supply official sources of some sort for them. (unsigned) 63.80.207.34 14:31, 8 Feb 2005

Not only things that have been proven should be recorded in an encyclopedia article. If a legend is associated with a historical character, and that legend is significant (as is the case with Hitler's rumored monorchidism) then the fact of the legend should be recorded. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 16:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation notice

There was until very recently a notice at the top of this article:

"Hitler" redirects to this page. For other people named Hitler, see Hitler (disambiguation).

In my view it was a useful link. Everyking and I cannot agree on whether it is "clutter." Everyking has placed it under "Hitler's family" which makes sense. On balance I think I still prefer to have it at the top. Any other people with preferences? --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 07:18, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

it should be on top of this page, these people are not all Hitlers family. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 10:22, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

question

  • first: is there doubt about his suicide in the bunker?
  • is it true that he was on cocaine? perhaps a rumor page /section would be nice

See:

The short answers are: yes, there is loads of doubt from everybody who has looked into his death with any kind of interest, and it was meth he was on, not coke. He didn't know that was what it was tho, his doctor told him it was the super-soldier serum, or vitimins, or some such. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 22:00, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hitlerjugend

A brief section on the Hitler Youth might be a good idea (and not in the form of "Hitler was brainwashing youth to be his unquestioning fully obedient soldiers" but in terms of the focus on athletics and companionship and so on).

Wannsee/Final Solution

This section of the document is severely flawed.

It is still only speculation that the "Final Solution" (being genocide) was decided here, or that the Final Solution even meant killing of the Jews. Anyone can read the Wannsee minutes, where they clearly talk about EVACUTION of the Jews and removing them from "all spheres of German life", not of removing them from the face of the planet.

For all Holocaust believers or generally average schmoes who learn their "history" piecemeal from movies and TV shows and what have you, they really believe that at Wannsee Hitler ordered genocide of the Jews, which is utter nonsense. It can be inferred that remaining Jew (after all other solutions being exhausted) "dealt with accordingly" meant killing them, but that alone is certainly no evidence of a systematic plan to slaughter every Jew in europe.

Okay, I've taken the libery and performed some editing myself. I believe it to be NPOV and rather fair to both sides of the debate. I have not denied there was a Holocaust (despite my personal beliefs) but I have made a far more accurate and informed edit about Wannsee (and Himmler's comments stating "we can not gas them or shoot them").

I put a lot of work into that, so please do not hastily revert it. Re-edit as you see fit, but to remove valid and complete facts in favour of half-facts which carry a different meaning, I hope that won't done....

I agree that the initial goal of the solution was evacuation of the Jews, but that doesn't change the fact that they weren't. If he didn't know what was happening in MANY of his camps, then that's no excuse; the buck stops with Hitler. If his men misinterpreted the order, he had more than enough time to correct them. --Golbez 18:40, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
Well that was a waste of time, reverted already. Hitler was already seriously sick by 1942, by the way, and I don't just mean physically. Many articles on Wikipedia on WWII are NPOV, like Nuremberg_Trials, like Laconia_Incident and so on, but EVERY SINGLE ONE mentioning the holocaust is completely POV, and the slightest mention that it was anything other than pre-meditated genocide of all Jews is not allowed, ditto for any comment about the alleged 6 million (which is in dispute even by some hardcore Zionist Jews in Israel).
Why do you think that is? Frankly, the whole issue turns my stomach.
Except, er, it was premeditated genocide. --Golbez 18:58, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
For the previous guy who does not believe that 6 million Jews died as a result of a systematically planned Nazi extermination: you will probably have to erase a lot of historical resources in order to convince the other people about your unusual point of view. I've read a lot of resources myself. I know pretty well the history that led to the murder of all 2600 Jews in Pilsen, my hometown. And if you're promoting your "NPOV", be careful: if you're in Germany, you may be arrested for spreading your unusual opinion because holocaust deniers are treated as criminals in that country. Be grateful that I am only treating you as a stinky Nazi. --Lumidek 22:48, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't think that intimidation, however veiled, is appropriate in an academic discussion. Additionally - laws are neither always just, nor always objective, and our concern here is objectivity, not legality. A perspective is not "void" merely because it defies the law. Finally: why does the section on the Holocaust speak only of the systemic murder of Jews at first, then slip the other millions of human beings who were murdered by the Nazis into the story two sentences down? Gypsies, gays, and handicapped people are NOT second-rate humans, and the human tragedy of a murdered Jew does not outweigh the human tragedy of a murdered Communist. I would very much like to see fair consideration given to those exterminated by the Nazis. It's certainly important to mention that Jews comprised well over half of the victims, but let's make sure that we're not painting the holocaust as a Jewish event, with "everyone else" relegated to a role as supporting cast.

Poetsch

The article says Poetsch gave anti-Semetic lectures and yet "was not anti-semitic at all." Is this actually true? It sounds a lot like a contradiction borne of editor differences. Deco 11:55, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the Confessing church, it was a protestant organization, and it prompted action against protestant (in particular Lutheran) clergy, not Catholic, as was stated in the article.


Disclaimer

The article is blatantly not neutral, and would require a complete rewrite to make it so. Any fair minded person can see that talking about Hitler in glowing terms when so much of the world considers him evil is unconscionable. Until such time a disclaimer must be put in place. --69.158.175.185 16:56, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Then use the standard templates for NPOV disputes, however please read NPOV first. What's more, your "disclaimer" is anything but neutral. Lastly I'd advise you to accustomise yourself with wikipedia a little more before you start making such claims. --fvw* 17:05, 2005 Jan 31 (UTC)
There is no template that says what the disclaimer says. A strong disclaimer is required to counter the bias of the article. I have quite a bit of experience with Wikipedia, that's why I'm not logged in. --69.158.175.185 17:11, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think you need to explain how this article is biased. I just reread it, and to me it sounds like a relatively neutral, factual account of Hitler's life. Please read the section above headed NPOV, and remember that it is not our job to convince people that Hitler was evil. DJ Clayworth 17:57, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hitler's New World Order

Is there any information about the New World Order Hitler was trying to create? I think that there should be an article about it. All I know is that he wanted to colonize the Ukraine with SS guards and their families, and Germany would extend up to Moscow and beyond.

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