Talk:Adolf Lindenbaum

Molobo's edits

The recent edits of Molobo could be perceived nationalistic, because they carry an implicit claim by one country to another's territory; I may be wrong. However, there is no reason to Polonize these names. If the massacre is known in English by its Polish name, link the massacre (i.e. Massacre of Ponary), not the modern Lithuanian town of Paneriai. Ponary is in any case a redirect to Paneriai, so the reason Molobo is giving for Polonizing the name of the town doesn't make any kind of sense. - Calgacus 23:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Claim to territory ? What are you talking about ? You seem to have some strange ideas. --Molobo 23:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC) Care to give source on your claims that he was German btw ? --Molobo 23:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC) If you want to be hypercorrect I will give administrative district of Nazi Germany. --Molobo 23:52, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I see you're a friendly chap. Please be courteous, because otherwise, I won't bother interacting with you. His name, forename and surname, are German (not just German sounding); and I would suggest the onus (i.e. burden of proof) is on you Molobo to prove that he isn't of German descent. The alternative is that his family at some point abandoned their Polish name, and moreover, that his parents were sufficiently Germanophile that, without even having German descent, they gave their son a German name in addition, and that Adolf, moreover, was never inclined to have it Polonized. Maybe someone can give me a reason why I'm wrong? - Calgacus 23:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, his name, forename and surname, are German (not just German sounding); and I would suggest the onus (i.e. burden of proof) is on Molobo to prove that he isn't of German descent. The alternative is that his family abandoned their Polish name, and moreover, that his parents were sufficiently Germanophile to give their son his German name in addition, and that Adolf, moreover, was never inclined to have it Polonized. Maybe someone can give me a reason why I'm wrong? Your claims that he was German could be perceived nationalistic because they carry an implicit claim to by of one ethnic group. They are lots of Poles with German names and Germans with Polish names-for example General Blaskowitz-especially from people coming from areas of Prussia or Poznań. --Molobo 00:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC) Please then give a source that he is of German descent. --Molobo 00:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC) I don't think saying that a guy with a full German name is of German descent is a particularly dangerous guess; and it's certainly not nationalistic. This is a particularly hard notion to swallow if you realize that I myself am in no way German. Do you deny that he's of German descent? - Calgacus 00:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

http://www.poland.gov.pl/The,Polish,Language,317.html Polish also has many borrowings from other languages, notably from English, French, German, Latin and Russian. These influences have been caused by various factors ranging from fascination with other cultures (borrowings from French) to historical processes such as the partitions (borrowings from German and Russian) or accepting Christianity (borrowings from Latin). Latin started to influence Polish in the Middle Ages. When Polish statehood and Christian order were established, the language incorporated religious and liturgical vocabulary, often via Czech and German (e.g. anioł [angel], msza [mass]). Today this influence is limited mainly to scientific jargon. Words of German origin were borrowed particularly in the 19th century as a result of the policy of Germanization. It would be difficult to imagine modern Polish without such obvious lexical calques as czasopismo (magazine, after the German Zeitschrift), dworzec kolejowy (railway station, after Bahnhof) and owiatopoglšd (world view, after Weltanschauung). --Molobo 00:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

- Fascinating. But there were millions of actual Germans in early twentieth century Poland, I'm curious why you think it unlikely. Well, I'll go to the library and find a source that proves it; you better hope it doesn't turn out that he's actually an ethnic German. :) - Calgacus 00:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

you better hope it doesn't turn out that he's actually an ethnic German. Why ? If he was I don't mind. Why should I care ? Just give a source, before pushing forward your personal opinion. --Molobo 00:15, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

It's hardly just personal opinion. But the fact you're taking it so seriously (combined with your desire to Polonize the name of a Lithuanian town) makes me think it likely you'd be upset by the discovery. Maybe I'm wrong. But I won't restore German descent (which he obviously had), until I get a source. Happy? - Calgacus 00:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

How can you be sure that he obviously had a German descent if you don't have a source ? But the fact you're taking it so seriously (combined with your desire to Polonize the name of a Lithuanian town) I don't know if the town was inhabited by Poles or Lithuanians-do you have cenzus records ? --Molobo 00:21, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

German forename, German surname, knowledge of the ethnographic situation in modern Polish history, etc. As to the census: Probably both. It doesn't matter though, we don't go trolling through censi in order to find out what to call one town when. That is the name of the town, both in Lithuanian and English. It doesn't matter that it was once partly inhabited by Germans or Poles or whoever. - Calgacus 00:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC

knowledge of the ethnographic situation in modern Polish history Hmm you found the information that German words were borrowed fascinating-and this is rather basic knowledge.Excuse me If I am doubtfull.

I don't think descent is that important. He might be German, or Jewish (I saw one page listing him as a Jewish mathematcian). Anyway, this page lists him as a member of a Lwów-Warsaw_School_of_logic. This is confimed by PWN Encyclopedia (here, if you can read Polish). And here is he is listed among 'Polish Great Mathematicians'. Is this enough?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:16, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter though, we don't go trolling through censi in order to find out what to call one town when. That is the name of the town, both in Lithuanian and English Ponary isn't used in English for the name of the town ? Are you saying that Paneriai is an English name ? The name Ponary is used in english publications: deathcamps.org/reinhard/timeline/timelinetab1941.html 4 July: Beginning of mass executions of Jews in Vilnius (Wilna). Until 20 July about 5,000 Jews were killed by the Einsatzkommando 9 and Lithuanians at the Ponary Forest. --Molobo 00:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

This is getting tedious. Stop trying to find ways to Polonize the name. The wiki article title is Paneriai. If you have a problem with that, go there and suggest a move. For what it's worth, Paneriai has on google 14,500 English pages, Ponary only 10,500. Compare that with Paneriai's general 60,300 and Ponary's measily 25,600. - Calgacus 00:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

You didn't answer my questions: Ponary isn't used in English for the name of the town ? Are you saying that Paneriai is an English name ? Since you claim that the name should be named after country it is in, then it would follow that it would be German or Polish name depending upon which country you believe had legal rights over the town at the time. --Molobo 00:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Your google hits aren't enough-they can speak about different-post-war period. Or do you believe that names should be give according to current location ? --Molobo 00:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

It usually is. You can only use the historical name when there is an absence of a common English name, in which case you put the current local name in brackets upon first mention. If you think that the modern English name Paneriai (you have no case for Vilnius) isn't common enough, you have to give good reasoning as to why Ponary, rather than Paneriai or Ponaren, is a good historical name for the period in question. - Calgacus 01:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

You can only use the historical name when there is an absence of a common English name Paneriai is an English name ? (you have no case for Vilnius) Huh ? What are talking about ?

BE NICE! - Calgacus 01:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

you have to give good reasoning as to why Ponary, rather than Paneriai or Ponaren, is a good historical name for the period in question. Google hits:

228  Ponary massacre -wikipedia
216  Paneriai massacre -wikipedia

So it seems that the English accepted name for this period is Ponary. --Molobo 01:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Less then 5% difference - both names are acceptable. Perhaps you both would like to take a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Geographic names and comment on our proposal there.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

That's for the massacre, not the town, as I already showed. - Calgacus 01:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

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