Talk:Advanced statistics in basketball

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 August 2020 and 4 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mferretti34, Freemanalfano.

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Untitled

Why is Berri mentioned here? He pretty much ignores any work since Dean Oliver and then proclaims his own stat to be the be all end all of basketball analysis. Berri has pretty much rejected the apbrmetrics community.

• Actually, he doesn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.121.205 (talk) 19:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Define APBR

You'd think an article partly titled with an acronym would explain the acronym. Geez.

Neutrality

This article is off to a good start but try to write it in a more neutral tone and cite sources. It's pretty obvious to the casual reader that this article was written by a huge fan of APBRmetrics. Quadzilla99 15:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Promotion Article

Most of this article is a listing of major practitioners. There's an explanation of the concepts, but ZERO examples or applications. I'm very seriously consider one or both of the following: 1)Completely purge the practitioners. 2)Nominating the article for deletion. Tapered (talk) 03:29, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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Requested move 4 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. There is a rough consensus for a move to "Advanced statistics in basketball". (non-admin closure) qedk (t 桜 c) 20:39, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

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APBRmetrics → ? – I’ve never seen APBRmetrics used outside of Wikipedia. Either Advanced statistics (basketball) or Analytics (basketball) would be the most common name. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 21:33, 4 December 2019 (UTC)—Relisted. – Ammarpad (talk) 07:27, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support some move. The current title is nonsense and is not commonly used. Advanced statistics in basketball would be my preference to eliminate the un-needed disambiguator. BLAIXX 20:41, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

@Blaixx: I’d be fine w/advanced statistics in basketball. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 21:33, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

• Ditto Red Slash 22:18, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
• Comment Oppose "Weak oppose" any move, "strong oppose" any title that includes the word "advanced" (See below for explanation. Steel1943 (talk) 18:09, 23 December 2019 (UTC)): Looks like the term "APBRmetrics" is in use outside of Wikipedia. Steel1943 (talk) 16:53, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

It’s good to know that, but it doesn’t change the fact that APBRmetrics isn’t the common name. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 21:33, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

...But neither is any of the proposed locations since it looks like this concept has an official name, and there's not really a generic, non-proper (capitalized) title. In fact, I'd say that since this subject is currently at a proper name that specifically explains the concept it is supposed to describe in its article, making the current title its "de facto" common name, I now oppose. Seems the problem is the article, not the title. Steel1943 (talk) 23:06, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

There are a few things to note. APBR isn’t connected to the NBA, so it’s not able to make APBRmetrics an official name. NBA.com, which is the NBA’s official website, uses the term “Advanced Stats”, but I’m not sure if that’s an official name. The official name doesn’t necessarily even matter. Wikipedia:Article titles says “Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used”. Advanced statistics and analytics are much more recognizable as common names for this subject (& they’re also more natural titles) than APBRmetrics. Based on Wikipedia’s criteria, I think either Analytics (basketball), Advanced statistics (basketball), Analytics in basketball or Advanced statistics in basketball would be the best title. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 04:40, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

In regards to "...the name that is most commonly used..."; that's the thing. All of the alternative tiles were committed so far are generic names that I have not seen used anywhere on the Internet. Again, these recommended titles that have been provided so far are not proper names, which means that their use as a phrase should have international meeting throughout all of the English language. Unfortunately, through the searches that I am looking through, I have found no evidence that any of these phrases recommended so far are either exclusive to the subject, or describe the subject in such a way. In fact, the use of the word "advanced" is rather vague and can be considered a buzzword of sorts, and thus should not be any new title. In regards to use the word "analytics", there's no issue with that as well, considering that its use has to mean that the use of the word "analytics" in regards to basketball has to be exclusive to this subject. I would have to imagine that there are additional aggregation sites for basketball statistics out there that could be considered "analytics" as well, meaning that the term "analytics" would not be exclusive to this subject. Steel1943 (talk) 17:20, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

(Stuck our part of my statement after reviewing the article. Seems that the current state of the article may be more general that I originally realized. [My issue with the word "advanced" still applies.]) Steel1943 (talk) 18:04, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Here’s an article that uses the terms “advanced stats”, “analytics” & “advanced metrics”. Here are some sites & articles that use the term “advanced stats/statistics”: [1], [2], [3] & [4] (the 2 articles also use the term “metrics”). Here are some articles that use the term “analytics”: [5], [6], [7], [8] (the last article also uses the term “advanced statistics”). Blaylockjam10 (talk) 05:54, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

...Okay, but that still doesn't alleviate the concern I stated about why we should be using the term "advanced statistics/analytics" as opposed to just "statistics/analytics", given that the word "advanced" ... well, I already stated the reason above, and also, the information above does not describe the phrase as being a proper noun, but rather a common noun with an adjective (and thus "advanced" would not be part of an article title.) Either way though, I have no opposition for creating the "advanced..." titles as redirects to this article, but I do not support it as the title name per my previous comments and considering that the phrase has use as proven above. Steel1943 (talk) 17:54, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

The word "advanced" qualifies the topic to exclude the so called "basic statistics" such as points, rebounds, and assists. This article is supposed to be about the development of the newer and less intuitive measures that are known by a few names, including "advanced stats". BLAIXX 18:30, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Do we have an article that specifically outlines and identifies the term "basic statistics" in regards to basketball? For one, Basic statistic and Basic statistics do not exist. And unless we have an article that specifically outlines and identifies what "basic statistics" are in basketball, the "advanced" adjective is still unnecessary, and in fact, this article could be expanded to include the "basic" subjects as well. Steel1943 (talk) 19:00, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that article is called Basketball statistics. BLAIXX 19:08, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• Just branching off what I stated above, since it's somewhat unrelated: It seems that the subject at Advanced metrics can also be called "Advanced statistics". They look like the same subject ... and something needs to happen with Advanced statistics being created in some form, considering that there are existing redirects that begin with "Advanced statistics" that are followed by disambiguators. Steel1943 (talk) 19:05, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
  • ...Eh, might as well ping Tavix since Tavix linked Advanced statistics back in 2015 here in the event Tavix has any input on this... Steel1943 (talk) 21:07, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
    • ...aaand created. Good find! -- Tavix ^(talk) 00:09, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support Advanced statistics in basketball per nom and above logic, and in the interests of finding consensus on a suitable title.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:07, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Edits

I have removed much of the unsourced material from the article. The article had been tagged for 15 years. If any of the deleted information (specifically, the information on formulas for various advanced statistics) can be appropriately sourced, please feel free to reinstate it. MonMothma (talk) 15:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)