Talk:Aerial ramming

Crashing in to ground

Taken from the article:

"In some cases, pilots who were heavily wounded or in damaged aircraft, or out of ammo, decided to perform a suicidal taran attack against air, ground or naval targets. In this instance, taran becomes more like an unpremeditated kamikaze attack (see Nikolai Gastello)." --lTopGunl (talk) 16:37, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Rashid Minhas's battle with Matiur Rahman (military pilot): Nobody will ever know whether the aircraft was crashed on purpose or whether the two pilots were both trying to fly it, but in different directions. There is no evidence of intention to 'ram' the ground. In any case, aerial ramming is always air-to-air, not air-to-ground. Binksternet (talk) 17:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Pakistan airforce released some of the radio transmissions as evidence, but it seems kind of hard to find full versions of them on the internet. Anyway, putting aside WP:Truth, it is verifiable from the sources given. As for the topic in hand, I gave the above script from the article which counts ramming to ground. Consistency? --lTopGunl (talk) 18:24, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

A favoured tactic of Russian pilots?

That's quite a statement, don't you think? Without reliable source reference it becomes even more of a statement. 200 rams during several years on the Eastern Front (when several thousands of people made 2-5 flights each day that was suitable for flying) shows just how common and favoured that kind of attacks really was. Those who made such an attack were indeed honored and their deeds lived long in propaganda -- but people in air force mostly considered it an act of totally last resort or incompetence. In fact, you can hardly tell if a man has intentionally crashed his plane into the target or he just miscalculated his attack. With that in mind it would be nice to see some proof of the statement above or just to stop seeng that statement in the article altogether.

Also it is strange to see that about Russian pilots. There were not many air rams in WW1, where Russian Empire took place. Total most of the rams are credited to Soviet pilots, not just russian. That too is a subject for a quick decisive change IMO.

I will work on the wording and references. Suffice to say that the tactic was celebrated by the Soviets as a symbol of sacrifice and heroism, but it was not 'favoured'. Binksternet (talk) 01:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

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Tomesaku Igarashi (Japan) entry

On 6 June 1944, having expended his ammunition in an extended dogfight, Sergeant Tomesaku Igarashi of the 50th Sentai used the propeller of his Nakajima Ki-43 to bring down a Lockheed P-38 Lightning near Meiktila, Burma. After the pilot bailed out, Igarashi attacked him in his parachute. The P-38 may have belonged to 5-kill ace Lieutenant Burdette C. Goodrich or 10-kill ace Captain Walter F. Duke of the 459th Fighter Squadron; both men were lost in battle that day.

Latest research by Christopher Shores in 'Air War for Burma' indicates Goodrich was shot down by Lt. Goichi Sumino. This would seem to indicate that Igarashi rammed Duke, and should make it safe to alter the entry and remove Goodrich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.71.69.163 (talk) 14:33, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Sgt. Tomesaku Igarashi was killed when ramming the plan below,amongst those killed was my uncle Donald McLeod Lindsay 17.06.1944 No. 99 Squadron Wellington XI HZ719 Operation: Bomb ferrying - Date: 17th June 1944 (Saturday) Unit: No. 99 Squadron, Type: Wellington XI, Serial: HZ719 Base: Jessore Airbase, Location: Loktak Lake, Manipur, India Pilot: Sq/Ldr. Anthony Stewart Reginald Ennis DSO. DFC. 104249 RAFVR Age 26. Killed (1) Pilot 2: W/O. II. Donald McLeod Lindsay R/157741 RCAF Age 20. Killed Nav: Fl/Sgt. William Edmund George Griffin 1389497 RAFVR Age 29. Killed Nav: Fl/Sgt. David Robert Rees 1467524 RAFVR Age ? Killed W/Op/Air/Gnr: Fl/Sgt. Arthur Sisterton Davison 1015920 RAFVR Age ? Killed Air/Gnr: Fl/Sgt. Alwyne Atkin 1663367 RAFVR Age 30. Killed REASON FOR LOSS: - Understood to have been on a Bomb ferrying assignment when on return they were jumped by a Ki-Oscar. It is reported that during the air battle that ensued that this Oscar, flown by Sgt Tomesaku Igarashi (50th Sentai) shot down the Wellington which came down in Loktak Lake. The rear gunner also managed to return fire and bring him down during the battle. Other reports state that it was brought down by ground fire from Japanese troops. It is understood that a group of local researchers are trying to identify the crash site (not discovered as yet - despite reports in the Times of India on the 8th October 2014) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3D08:2C85:7900:7DB4:5AC8:C44D:600D (talk) 23:00, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

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"Some Soviet aircraft like the Polikarpov I-16 had wings strengthened for this purpose"

The source cited for this section is a deads link, and it is unclear whether it is being cited for this implausible claim. Intentional ramming was never part of the Soviet air force's official doctrine, and modifying already underperforming aircraft on the off-chance they might be used for a ramming attack seems highly unlikely to have gained official approval. Not least because it would seem pointless, since reinforcing an aircraft wing to the extent that one might reasonably expect the aircraft to still be flyable after the attack (the only logical reason to do it) would necessarily involve major structual work, and quite possibly cripple performence to the extent that attacks couldn't be carried out in the first place.

There has been a great dial of propaganda and outright fiction (positive and negative) put out about the activities of Soviet armed forces during WW2, and I don't think Wikipedia should be adding to it - any sourcing for such an extrordinary claim needs to be credible and explicit, and preferably sourced to historiography based on recent research, rather than Cold War sources with no access to relevent material. 86.130.97.63 (talk) 09:05, 17 December 2017 (UTC)