Talk:Afro-Colombians

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Afro-Colombians

Please stop editing the official figure for Afro people in Colombia. There are several genetic studies (if census figures don't work for you) and there's no way over 25% of Colombians are black. I'd suggest you visit Bogota, the country's largest city and see it for yourself. 25% is way too much. Colombia is mostly a mestizo country leaning towards euro-mestizo. Most Colombians live up in the mountains where black admixture was little to non-existent.

Whichever way it may be, every other country on Wikipedia uses the figure provided by their census. It shouldn't be any different for Colombia.

Those estimates and surveys some people link don't compare to the census which is more reliable and thorough.

Regarding censuses being 'contested'

'The validity of recent DANE censuses have been contested and called out by various Afro-Colombian groups.'

That was before DANE's correction. Afro population went from 2,982,224 to 4,671,160 when taking into account households' surveys. So it was addressed and no more reports have been filed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougwash (talk • contribs) 18:36, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

afro colombian

why race needs to be indicated. Is Biden an Euro American or just an American? stop this kind of racism please 37.167.158.175 (talk) 08:40, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

New sources added

I will add some sources about Afro Colombian demographics in order to contrast underestimation in the official figures. this coincides with that discussed in the Spanish edition of the same article, please don't delete it.

1. Research from 2001, where, using surveys, it is determined that the proportion of Afro-descendants in the country is 18.1%. This research can be found here:

http://biblioteca.clacso.edu.ar/Colombia/cidse-univalle/20121113043151/Art2.pdf

2. Anthropological research from 2005 by the Mexican professor Lizcano Fernández, who estimates that 25% of the Colombian population is Afro-descendant: 21% mulatto, 3.9% black and 0.1% Afro-Caribbean. It can be consulted here:

http://convergencia.uaemex.mx/rev38/38pdf/LIZCANO.pdf

3. Traditional figure where it is estimated that the Afro-Colombian population is 21% of the total (14% mulattoes, 4% blacks and 3% zambos), and that can be found in various studies such as the one that appears in this link:

https://digitk.areandina.edu.co/bitstream/handle/areandina/1457/Geograf%C3%ADa%20humana%20de%20Colombia.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

But also in previous editions of The World FactBook, as recorded here:

https://user.iiasa.ac.at/~marek/fbook/04/geos/co.html

4. Self-identification studies carried out by Professor Simón Schwartzman where 23% of Colombians acknowledge having some African descent, while another 17% claim to be mulatto and 4% recognize themselves as black.

It can be consulted here:

http://www.schwartzman.org.br/simon/coesion_etnia.pdf

5. Estimate of the Colombian government itself, in particular that contained in the Chair of Afro-Colombian Studies, where it is estimated that this population corresponds to 26% of the total.

The official document can be found here:

https://www.mineducacion.gov.co/1621/articles-89869_archivo_pdf1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjhm6nFq9j2AhWeTDABHaQcDwIQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0UdQwzLAcWA13B4hLV7CVD Merchancano (talk) 05:05, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

that last link you provided does not work. As far as your fourth link, The world Factbook currently states the afro Colombian population is at 9%. Your third source states the following: "De acuerdo al censo de 2005, 4 533 951 per- sonas se autoreconocieron como afroco- lombianos, raizales y palenqueros, es decir, el 10,6% de la población del país." basically it is simply citing the 2005 census. The current census says 9% of the population is black. Your second link does not work. I couldnt find the conclusion of 18% for your first article, if you could copy and paste where you found it that would be great. Overall I believe if we count mulattos as blacks we can count castizos as white. Although both are mixed races, they are predominantly one race over the other, because of this, they are racialized differently. I also believe we should include genetic ancestry on each ethnic page Enlightened105747 (talk) 15:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

About link (1), you can find 18,1% figure in page 12 onwards.

This is the link (2). Colombia is clasified as an "Afro mestizo" country:

https://www.redalyc.org/articulo.oa?id=10503808

Link (3) cites traditional estimation in page 20. Current CIA World Fact Book edition uses figures from 2018 census, but former editions also showed traditional estimation (link 3.1).

Afro Colombians includes black and mixed population (pardos, mulattoes and zambos).

Castizos are mestizos, and there is any source classifying them as a separate group. Instead, there are at least six sources claiming Afro Colombians are between 18% and 26% of the population, and you insist in delete them. Merchancano (talk) 06:30, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Castizos are not mestizos, there is evidence throughout history that exemplifies they are racialized differently, the fact that they are even named differently proves that. In case you did not know, those names come from the casta system implemented in colonial times. Castizos only had 1/4 of naive ancestry and were treated differently because of that. The lizano source states the following : La suma de las etnias mulata y negra representa 24% de la población re gional., mientras que en los países afromestizos se localiza 18%. Por tanto, los otros tipos de países, pese a que todos ellos contienen afrodescendientes con lenguas maternas ibéricas, aportan porcentajes muy reducidos en relación con la población regional de estas etnias. Brasil es el país que concentra el mayor número de mulatos y negros de Iberoamérica (65%), Colombia y Venezuela ostentan importancias similares (9% y 8%, respectivamente). Basically stating the same as the census, that blacks in Colombia are about 9% of the population. The lizano source also states the following: parte de sus integrantes viven en tipos de países donde esta subetnia está más claramente delimitada, en los países criollos y en los afrocriollos. En efecto, algo más de la mitad (55%) de los criollos vive en los países afrocriollos (naturalmente, la gran mayoría en Brasil), la cuarta parte en los países criollos y el resto (20%) en los otros tipos de países. Los países que más criollos contienen son Brasil (51%), Argentina (17%) y, con casi 15 millones, México (8%); en tanto que Colombia y Chile tienen en torno a 8 millones cada uno, así como Perú, Venezuela, Cuba, Costa Rica y Uruguay entre 3 y 4 millones. According to the lizano source only 17% of Argentina is white, as well as only 8% of Mexico. If you believe this source then why do you not update all the other countries accordingly? Why are you so fixated on Colombia? It doesn't make sense to change the government designated numbers of 18 million- 20 million to only 8 million because of this source but not follow through by changing the stats of other country as well.

As I said before, race is completely a social construct. Castizos are white the same way black and mixed populations can be considered black. aNyone who visits Chile or looks at genetic studies done on the country, knows half of every chilean in street is not "European passing" yet 50% self identify as white. Colombia has on average much higher European genetic composition and much lower indigenous composition yet only 37% self identified as white. Like I said before race is a social construct. In each country race means somthing differently. It seems like you are trying input your own bias despite the evidence you provide not even backing up what you say. Enlightened105747 (talk) 03:34, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

There is also evident bias from your mexican source. La nación iberoamericana con más indígenas es México (donde vive 30% de los indios iberoamericanos), si bien no es un país indomestizo; le siguen los cuatro países indomestizos: Perú (25%), Guatemala (13%), Ecuador (11%) y Bolivia (10%). Lizcano is hesitant to call his own county indomestzio despite Mexico having the highest number of total indigenous people and and the hight proportion. How does it make sense to call Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador indomestizos who mall much less percentage of native populations? Also there evidence throughout this article that shows this source from 2005, almost 20 years ago, is severely out dated and not accurate. The own Bolivian government states the following:https://www.iwgia.org/es/bolivia.html "Según el Censo Nacional de 2012, 2.8 millones de personas mayores de 15 años, o el 41% de la población total, son indígenas. Existen 36 pueblos reconocidos, siendo el Quechua y el Aymara, los mayoritarios en los Andes occidentales." Lizcano 's evidently way off from official numbers given by governments. Overall there is evidence of bias and outdated numbers in this source from two decades ago. Enlightened105747 (talk) 03:46, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

About to "Castizo issue", you need to remember just mestizo with 12,5% (1/8) of Amerindian blood were considered Criollo (White) in Spanish colonial times. So castizos were considered mestizos. You also need to remember castizos are a small minority in Colombia because people self identified as White (20% of total) are just 65% White in average (Castizos are people with 75% White ancestry). Merchancano (talk) 17:44, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I have left the other estimates as a note which explains that other non-government census sources give a wide range of percentages. You would need multiple reliable sources specifically confirming that the Colombian government is greatly under reporting the Afro-Colombian population. Not personal opinion or speculation as that is WP:OR. Plus, they vary largely in percentage and can simply be put in a range.

"Race" is just a social construct. Some people identify as and are accepted as being "Indigenous" without being 100% Indigenous descent. The same thing happens with many self-identified Afrodescendants in the Americas not always being 100% African. IDK about this "Castizo issue" but again, race is just a social construct. Worrying meticulously about "genetic purity" isn't going to anyone any good. Brazil considers "Yellow people" or "Amarela/o" to be an acceptable racial/skin colour term to refer to East Asians. They don't officially see Asians as a "race" in their census, and I've seen nothing about how South Asians or other Asian communities in Brazil would be categorized. In the U.S, that isn't seen as "politically correct" and they instead lump together the ethnically/racially diverse peoples of Asia under one artificial racial category in the U.S Census ("Asian"). But you can find many articles of Browner-skinned Asians who disagree with being lumped together as one "race". And some Asian Americans who argue that they could be seen as "White". Clear Looking Glass (talk) 07:08, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

This article is not about your personal interpretations on Lizcano's work, so avoid to delete that source. Moreover, another five sources are reaching the same conclusion as professor Lizcano and evidencing the census omission. They aren't sources from two decades ago, but from recent years (the only demographic change in Colombia in last years is Venezuelan immigration, that brought more mulatto/pardo/zambo population).

Even Colombia's government recognized census omission, so I think it's necessary to create an acclaration about this issue.

https://www.corteconstitucional.gov.co/noticia.php?Corte-declara-que-la-reduccion-injustificada-del-numero-de-personas-afrocolombianas-contabilizadas-en-el-Censo-Nacional-de-2018-dio-lugar-a-una-invisibilizacion-estadistica-que-vulnero-sus-derechos-fundamentales-9333 Merchancano (talk) 17:37, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

These are not personal interpretations, this is simply an in depth analysis of the sources you are seeking to validate on this page. Lizcano's study is well around two decades ago , you even acknowledged it yourself. "Anthropological research from 2005 by the Mexican professor Lizcano Fernández, who estimates that 25% of the Colombian population is Afro-descendant: 21% mulatto, 3.9% black and 0.1% Afro-Caribbean. It can be consulted here:" - quoting you.

Lizcano's conclusions are not accurate with basically any official government number today and seems you are aware of this. This outdated and unreliable source by Lizcano states only 10% of Bolivia is native, and only 17% of Argentina is white. Why don't you go on other pages and add those figures?

You keep making the mistake of ignoring the fact that race is social construct. No body is out there measuring the genetic composition of random people on the street, they are classified on their appearance. If someone looks black or looks white, they are considered what they look like.

As far the DANE's error, they changed their original number that was later accepted by various minority organzations. Nobody on this page has claimed afro Colombians are only 2 million. Enlightened105747 (talk) 22:38, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Your interpretation is wrong. Lizcano states Bolivia is 55% native, Argentina is 85% White, and Colombia is 21% Mulatto (p. 218). You should read the source more carefully.

In fact, race is a social construct; this page must collect all sources and reflect multiple opinions, it cannot include just sources you consider correct based on your particular vision about race (genetic research is also important, but you are deliberately ignoring sources where Colombians are less 50% Caucasoid or more than 20% SS African).

DANE corrected its figure, but it used home survey data, so in this moment Colombia hasn't an reliable census figure. Merchancano (talk) 05:35, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Population

Im concerned that this page uses data from over two decades ago with percentage ratio thats inaccurate with the population size of Colombia today. for example, the source that says afro colombians are 26%of the population is from a time where the population was 41 million. Now it is 52 million. Also, race is a social construct. According to the last census about 10% of colombia identify as afro colombians. Many mixed colomnbians may chose to instead identify as just mixed. Which is why I believe it would be best to just provide the numbers given by the census and then provide the gentic stuides thats how how much African ancestry is present in the average colombia Mappingtruths (talk) 16:26, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Some sources aren even more recent than oficial census (Latinobarometro 2018, PERLA 2019). In any case, figures are expressed in percentages, not in absolute numbers, and all sources come to the same conclusion: Afro Colombians are around 20% (+/-5%) of total population (the only demographic change un Colombia in last years is Venezuelan immigration, and it introduces a large number of Afro mixed people).

Genetic research also supports this conclusion: Subsaharan African admixture in Colombian genetic samples ranges between 10% and 20%, showing 50% of population have more than 10-20% of Subsaharan ancestry, and 25% of population could have more than 20-40% of Subsaharan ancestry, enough to be considered mulattoes, pardos or zamboes. 179.1.77.171 (talk) 21:24, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Then i beleive in order to keep the data on this page most relevant and up to date, only external sources such as Latinobarometro 2018 should be kept. Here the the number is 15% which isnt that far from the 10% number given by the last census. I dont see PERLA 2019 on the page but given the year it was published that should also be kept. Mappingtruths (talk) 16:09, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Need redirects

Need redirects to this article from Black Colombian and Black Colombians. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 00:41, 19 March 2023 (UTC)