Talk:Afshar people

Azerbaijan issue

The Oxford Handbook of Iranian History, p. 308 "Nader Quli was a leader of the Afshar tribe, who were originally Turkoman from Central Asia. However, during the early Safavid period, they lived in Azerbaijan until the seventeenth century, when many of them were relocated to Khorasan." Dougweller (talk) 12:09, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

User:Urməvi reverted back to his opinionated version, when the source makes NO mention of Iraqi Turkmens which is the easter egg link Urməvi continues to edit-war into the article. According to Encyclopaedia Iranica, "When we hear from them again in the 8th/14th and 9th/15th centuries, the Afšārs have spread out over much of Iran, and their leaders have become pillars of first the Qara Qoyunlū dynasty...". So the Kara Koyunlu dynasty is made up of Iraqi Turkoman? Urməvi needs to start using the talk page instead of, "read source. Iraqi Turkomans is not Turkmens", when the source makes no mention of Iraqi Turkomans. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:15, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean by "Originally a Turkoman tribe from central Asia"? that is literally the Azerbaijani identity, their ancestors were originally Turkomans who migrated from central Asia. Turcoman is a term Azerbaijan used as a self identification as well. Azerbaijanis are oghuz/turcomans who live in Iran and caucasus that is what defines them as an ethnic group. Caucasuschan (talk) 13:58, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Unsourced information

"The Afshar tribes of Iran are two distinct Turkic ethnic groups. The larger group is concentrated in the north of the country, and the smaller in the south. The dialect of the Afshar language spoken by the Afshar of the north is closely related to the Azerbaijani language, while the dialect spoken by the southern Afshar is more closely related to the Qashqai language. Many famous Iranian figures are of Afshar origin, and commonly share the "Afshar" surname."

"Anatolian Afshars (Avshar) shared the same history with other Oghuz tribes until entering the Anatolia. Until the 10th century, they are believed to have lived along the banks of the Syr Darya (Seyhun) river and on the northern steppes of the river. Beginning from the 9th century, they started migrating towards west. Avshars are believed to have entered Anatolia after the Battle of Manzikert in 1071. They settled in various places in Anatolia. During the Mongol invasion in the following period, some Avshar tribes migrated to Syria and later formed what was called Halep (Aleppo) Turkmens, which eventually migrated back to Anatolia and settled there."

Avshars are a branch of the Turkic Oghuz groups in Anatolia and Azerbaijan, which are also called Turkmens. These originally nomadic Oghuz tribes moved from Central Asia and finally settled in Azerbaijan and Anatolia.

According to the legends, Oghuz Turks are formed from two main branches: Ucok and Boz ok (meaning Three Arrows and Gray Arrows). These two branches consisted equal numbers of "boy", meaning smaller tribes. Avshar Turkmens are believed to belong to the Gray Arrow branch and Avshar was himself, according to the Oghuz Kagan legend, the son of the Yildizhan (Star-Khan), one of the 6 sons of Oghuz Kagan. (mentioned and listed in Mahmud Kashgari's Divanu-Lugat-it Turk, 11th century).

Avshars shared the same history with other Oghuz tribes until entering the Anatolia. Until the 10th century, they are believed to have lived along the banks of the Syr Darya (Seyhun) river and on the northern steppes of the river. Beginning from the 9th century, they started migrating towards west. Avshars are believed to have entered Anatolia after the Battle of Manzikert in 1071. They settled in various places in Anatolia. During the Mongol invasion in the following period, some Avshar tribes migrated to Syria and later formed what was called Halep Turkmens, which eventually migrated back to Anatolia and settled there.

Avshars lived under the authority of the State they lived in, but they also formed great local dynasties which behaved independent in internal affairs. Avshars are mentioned as one of the few Oghuz "boy" tribes who had a strong political influence, the others are being the Kayı tribe who founded the Ottoman Empire and Kinik Tribe who founded Seljuk Empire.

This information needs a source to be placed within the article. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Merged, moved, and copy-edited

Merged per the long-standing request, but I simply blanked the other version, as none of it was specifically sourced. Rescue anything from Avshar Turmen you think is worthwhile.

Moved because of confusion in the article of what a "tribe" is. I'm assuming the Avshar were tribal, but that doesn't make them a single tribe. — kwami (talk) 05:44, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Removal of sourced info

If there is any problems with the reliability of the sources, please discuss it. But removing sourced information is not acceptable. Bests, Ali-al-Bakuvi (talk) 12:21, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You tell that to the 2-3 editors removing sourced infos. Afshar Warrior (talk) 12:39, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

External links modified

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Requested move 25 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Two supports and one well-argued oppose; "tribe" is likely to be misunderstood by English speakers. Notwithstanding the supporters' concerns, perhaps a better title is available? No such user (talk) 12:57, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

---

Afshar people → Afshar (tribe) – Similar to the 24 Oghuz tribes. Encyclopedia of Islam and Iranica mentions them as a tribe, not people. Beshogur (talk) 15:57, 25 June 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Colonestarrice (talk) 01:00, 29 July 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Jack Frost (talk) 13:32, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. Using the disambiguator "tribe" is confusing as the Afshars consist of multiple tribes in multiple countries. NB this sentence in the intro: "Afshars in Iran remain a largely nomadic group, with tribes in central Anatolia, northern Iran, and Azerbaijan." (my emphasis) Also nb "List of Afshar tribes are: Alplū..." later in the article. "People" includes tribes, &c., but if calling them people is a problem, a move to Afshars is fine with me. —  AjaxSmack  02:33, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack: you confuse "boy" and "oymak" which can be applied as Afshars being a "boy" (tribe) and Alplu being an "oymak" (subtribe/clans). See [1] and [2], or more precisely aşiret, equal to a clan. Iranica: AFŠĀR, one of the twenty-four original Ḡuz Turkic tribes; Enclyclopedia of Islam: The Afshār, (Avşar) is a tribe of Turkish origin. Haven't seen any argument against these. Beshogur (talk) 10:04, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

"...you confuse..." You're making my point for me. My opposition to a move was based on just this confusion. The titles Afshar people, Afshars and Afshars (ethnic group) are all clearer. The contemporary Afshars are ill fitted to Wikipedia's description of tribe, and as User:Visioncurve notes below, they have been called a people and a nation in other sources. —  AjaxSmack  03:08, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support as per nom. Naming Alplu, Arashli and etc among the "tribes of Afshar", as well as calling Afshars - people or even nation (yes, I have encountered that on a number of occasions) is pretty much archaic and is often stated as such in old Soviet academic books, such as 1969 Big Soviet Encyclopedia or 1977 History of Iran book written by the Soviet historian Ivanov and so on. So the above-mentioned "tribes" are most probably mistranslated and should be replaced with the word clan or sub-tribe according to modern sources. --Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 17:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
• Relisting comment: Second relist to enable further discussion and a clearer consensus to emerge. --Jack Frost (talk) 13:32, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Azerbaijani tribes

HistoryofIran it states Azerbaijanis AND Turkmens it doesn't state 'or' to make it disputed. There are Azerbaijani khanates of Afshar origin they are very much connected to our history.

Yes? Azeris and Turkmens aren't part of the same group. You can't belong to several groups, thus it is disputed, and thus adding 'Category:Azerbaijani tribes' is not neutral. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:00, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I am sure there is a separate category for turkmens that you can add as well to make it fair. Like i said, there are khanates of Azerbaijan that are of Afshar origin you can not just state that "its disputed" or that those khanates are actually of central asian turkmen origin, obviously those khanates are not of modern turkmen origin. They were still important part of our people and worth mentioning. Caucasuschan (talk) 14:05, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

It has nothing to do about 'fair'. The point is that it is disputed, and thus adding those categories is plain wrong. Also, I'm not stating anything, the sources are. Here we follow WP:RS, not what users think. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:08, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Why are Qajars in both Azerbaijani and Turkmen catgeories then? You can't just say a certain tribe cant be both things and then make Qajars belong to both Turkmens and Azerbaijanis. Caucasuschan (talk) 14:13, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Which article? It's not like I added it you know. And I don't know why, but that's another issue. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:22, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ethnic_Turkmen_people I see your account everywhere so that's why i assumed. My bad :) Caucasuschan (talk) 14:23, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I see. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:29, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

if it's undecided or disputed shouldn't afshars be removed from turkmen catgeory as well? Caucasuschan (talk) 16:29, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

May I ask why you did the exact same here [3]? --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:47, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

should I remove Turkmen category then or not? besides that, i added it because of inclusion of javanshirs who are connected to afshars, why should I *not* add Azerbaijanis when its listed on the article? and if you dont have a problem with it being associated as Turkmen only despite previously stating that its disputed and shouldn't be categorized as either then adding Azerbaijani category who afshars have obvious ties with wouldn't be an issue either. I just think Azerbaijanis should more or less be added because of javanshirs and the khanates. Caucasuschan (talk) 18:06, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Just remove it then. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:11, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Dialect/language

@LouisAragon: Hello. Regarding my edit, whose rationale you appear to have misunderstood, of the four sources cited in the Afshar dialect article, two back up the assertion that it is a dialect of Azeri, one backs up the assertion that it is a separate language, and the fourth (EI3) asserts that it could be either of those. The purpose of my edit was to correct this misrepresentation in the infobox, which up until that point had only listed Afshar as a distinct language and made no mention whatsoever of Azerbaijani language. You've reverted back to the previous version, which I still don't think accurately reflects the sources. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 13:22, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Iran atlas mentions it different. According to them, Afshar is "Southern West Oghuz" and Azerbaijani dialects are "Central West Oghuz". Beshogur (talk) 16:48, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

• "The purpose of my edit was to correct this misrepresentation in the infobox, which up until that point had only listed Afshar as a distinct language and made no mention whatsoever of Azerbaijani language."

Your edit, to me, implies as if Afshar is a variant/dialect/form of Azerbaijani. However, per the WP:RS listed at Afshar dialect, this remains uncertain, i.e. we don't know for certain whether Afshar is a South Oghuz or (South) Azeri variant. The only thing we do know for certain is that it is the original tongue of the Afshar people. Whether or not Afshar is linguistically South Oghuz or a variant of Azeri Turkic is therefore irrelevant to the page IMO. Perhaps this can be discussed when, at some point, the scholarly community manages to establish a consensus vis-a-vis its classification. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:31, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Well that wasn't the purpose, it was to better reflect the sources. You're correct that information about Afshar being either a dialect or language isn't studied enough and there is no scholarly consensus. And the article's current infobox listing of Afshar only as a distinct language without any mention of Azerbaijani contradicts the claims made in half of the cited sources about the dialect/language. The phrase could be changed to "Afshar/Azerbaijani" or something similar. If you have a suggestion that you think would be more appropriate, please let me know. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 09:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: Thoughts? — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 18:30, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

I think me and Beshogur made our points clear? - LouisAragon (talk) 19:51, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

How exactly? You made the point that RS's classification of Afshari as a dialect or language is ambiguous, which I agreed with. I don't see how that addresses the main issue in my previous comment or the proposal in it. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 19:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

The relevant infobox parameter is for languages, not dialects. I don't think it's appropriate to leave out the possibility of the dialect being a part of a language there. The word "Afshar" alone, next to several other standalone languages, suggests that it too is a widely recognised tongue. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 20:05, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

There is no consensus on its categorization, hence it doesn't make sense for either Azerbaijani or South Oghuz to be listed. The infobox currently makes no mention of which language group it belongs to, which is the most neutral option. Also, infoboxes are meant to be simple. If people want to know further about the language, all they need is one click. - LouisAragon (talk) 23:57, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

I still believe that the inclusion of "Afshar" alongside three widely-accepted languages under the heading "Languages" implies that it is also an accepted language, which is not a fair representation of the confusion in RS regarding the nature of Afshari. I think it's easy to see why one might find this problematic. I won't argue further, however, if you continue to object to any modifications to the current format because I don't think the problem is important enough to waste time on. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 00:19, 27 November 2022 (UTC)