Talk:Agha Petros

LoN peaceconference

Which League of Nations peace conference took place in 1923??? If this is not specified, I think the sentence should be removed. Nightworker 23:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

1923: Agha Petros and the Lausanne Telegraphs
http://www.atour.com/~history/1900/20030929a.html AIM-Assyria 16:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The above-mentioned peace conference which Petros Elia attented was the one whose outcome was the Treaty of Lausanne. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 15:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

External site duplication

This article has been revised to eliminate duplication from this site, which does not carry a release. I concur with Nightworker above--I can't find any sign of a 1923 peace conference. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:05, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

1923: Agha Petros and the Lausanne Telegraphs
http://www.atour.com/~history/1900/20030929a.html AIM-Assyria 16:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Died of poisoning?

The previous version mentionned that Petros Elia died of poisoning. Does anyone have a reference about that? In France, it is known that he died of a heart attack on his way back from patronizing a prostitute. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 15:57, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Dear Mr Jermiz. I guess one will be able to find some infos about it in the archives of some newspapers in Toulouse. It may be not easy for someone who doesn't live in France. Anyway, I know someone who collected some articles concerning Petros' stay in France. One day I'll try to have a look into them and put a link to them here.— Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 16:21, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

An official photograph?

Is the photograh featured on the article an official one or a public relations one? It is interesting in the sense that it gives an insight into the acumen for communication with which Petros Elia built his own image of a « heroic general / nationalist». In the Middle East he had no official uniform at all and there are no records of his being awarded military medals. Yet this widely-circulated picture portrays him in a borrowed uniform and decorations designed to impress gullible people. In France there is a law against wearing in public unawarded decorations, but none against buying them or wearing them for acting in a theatrical play. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 16:01, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Légion d'Honneur

I read in several places, including good articles, that Petros would have received official decorations. Especially the French Légion d'Honneur. Does someone know under which name he did obtain it ? The official database of the Légion d'Honneur, among 380 415 files, doesn't refer to any Petros, Elia, Elloff... In France there is a law against wearing in public unawarded decorations, but none against buying them or wearing them for acting in a theatrical play. People who would be more documented are invited to bring here some information about this.— Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 18:59, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm still eager to read some reliable sources in English concerning Petros medals. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 16:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, we can't have everything in English can we? He was an Assyrian and much about him is written in Arabic and Persian. Rafy talk 01:59, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

this is extract of letters concerning agha Petros medals:

1) legion of honour, hand writing letter in french: "March 11th 1919 My dear agha petros, the french consul received yesterday a letter from Paris saying that you were award as Chevalier de la legion d honneur, for your distinguished conduct during the fights against the Turks last spring. It says that the french governement is sending to you the cross.......... signed commandant SICARD Baghdad"

2) croix de guerre:" December 22th 1920(?)(not sure of the date) to mr CHAUVET french consul in Baghdad: answer n° 366 december 18th I agree with your proposal and ask you to give the french war cross to agha Petros with the compliments and friendship of the french governement. signed ROBERT DE CAIX"

"December 30th 1920 from general GARNIER DUPLESSIX commandant of Levant Army to the general commandant of the 4th division Alexandrette: over all the proofs friendship of the french governement to the assyro chaldean people, we have to mention that Agha Petros is award with French war cross for services during world war one. Please convey this message to the people of the assyro chaldean nation.

I hope the informations will be usefull and apologize if the translation is not perfect english. the day will come for thoses informations to be published entirely. signed nestrieno

--Nestrieno (talk) 12:49, 8 January 2014 (UTC)--Nestrieno (talk) 12:49, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Ownership of Novital Castle

I am glad to read this true-to-life biography. What a change from the prevalent image of a "heroic nationalist" !

His bodyguard at the Lausanne conference was Taver Challo, a relative of mine. Taver was a skilled wrestler and a sharpshooter. It was said that he would unsheath his gun, aim and fire and hit the mark in the wink of an eye.

Well, on returning from the Lausanne Conference , Taver was disillusionned about the future of Assyrians. He recalled that "Agha Petros" was not really concerned about Assyrians and that he did not defend their cause with conviction. Taver mentionned that at one time, "Agha" Petros brought about the issue of his own future ("What will become of me ?"). Perhaps he had in mind that the Allied owed him a retirement pension, who knows ?

However, I have retained an anecdote that will probably arouse the interest of some.

Some time after the establishment of "Agha" Petros, his family and some Assyrian families on the grounds of Novital Castle, a bunch of (important) Assyrian men came to Novital.

My family has remembered that "Agha" Petros required that those Assyrians (from abroad) sign a special document (I don't know what it was about, but hopefully, this document can be retrieved somehow).

The Assyrian visitors vehemently refused to sign that document and decided to leave the place.

However, "Agha" Petros' brother, who was ambushed behind the door, stopped them at gunpoint. "Agha" Petros then forced them to sign the document, which they did under threat. False information: Agha Petros brother named Agha Mirza died on may 3rd 1921 near Baghdad, and had never been in France.

Hardly was "Agha" Petros in possession of the said document when he hurried to the post-office in Toulouse (and not in Saint-Jory, which was closer), probably to prevent interception and kept the Assyrian visitors secluded three days and nights in Novital.

He let them go three days later, when he deemed that the letter, which was sent to England, had reached its destination or was free from interception anyway.

I do not know what that document was about, but one might venture to guess that it was a letter of relinquishing the ownership of Novital to "Agha" Petros himself.

I wish this document could be unearthed somehow. It could be in the archives of the Charity that Doctor Gilly (or Gillie ? / Guilly ?) was working for, the Red Cross I think. Indeed Doctor Gilly helped in the purchase of Novital for the purpose of establishing an Assyrian "refugee-village", but it did not turn out that way.

"Agha" Petros probably needed to justify that Assyrians no longer wanted to settle in Novital and that they were "willingly" leaving the ownership to him.

I urge historians or interested researchers to look for that document. 82.127.60.77 (talk) 10:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

For information: Novital castle was bought by Agha Petros in November 28th 1924 with a loan Barclays bank London. ref: official documents notary Toulouse .==

strange behaviour

Reading what happened to Assyrian leaders in Novital Castle brought to my mind what follows:

I happen to be an Assyrian and I had the pleasure to meet in Toulouse A lady called Mrs Evas -still alive at this writing- who told me the following story.

Her father was a rich Assyrian tradesman from Iran who came to settle in France prior to World War One.

He was very rich and he bought a castle near Gagnac and Lacourtensour (in the vicinity of Toulouse).

Well, he was approached (after World War One) by Agha Petros himself who asked him : "How much did you pay for your castle ?".

When Mr Evas told him the amount, Agha Petros asked him to sign a paper stating that the price of a castle (at the time) was TWICE the amount he had mentionned.

In spite of Agha Petros' insistence (and threats) Mr Evas utterly refused to comply to that.

So Agha Petros plotted to have him murdered bythe Assyrian warriors that were with him (Novital had not been bought yet).

Among those warriors, was a Mikael Sliva, who had been trained by the British (it seems). Well Mikael Sliva did not want to take part in that scheme and went to warn Mr. Evas of what Agha Petros had in store for him.

Well the plot fizzled out and Mr Evas even promised his daughter in marriage to Mikael Sliva.

Actually Mikael Sliva died some time later in an accident of his own making and is buried in Toulouse ...

Well, this story sounds very much in line with what has been written about Agha Petros.

— Nishra d'jilu (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 09:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

removing big chunks

i am removing all references to the book "L'action des grandes puissances dans la région d'Ourmia (Iran) et les Assyro-Chaldéens: 1917-1918 in Studia Kurdica n°1-5" since a google search doesnt yield any results. googling the name of the author merely shows duplicates of this article.84.30.220.17 (talk) 04:50, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

What a strange alibi to refer to Google searching ! Wikipedia should be a mirror of reality and not an appendix to Google, as if the latter were the only fontainhead of truth.

Instead of googling "M.D.", you should have googled "D.M" and then you would have be directed to some link to Bulletin de liaison de l'Institut Kurde de Paris, dating back to 1984. At that time, the Internet was not in existence, but doesn't Wikipedia aim to override the span of its own existence ?

I personnaly own a copy of issue n°5 of Studia Kurdica (1988), where the quotations are taken from. I would be happy to send by e-mail a copy of the relevent article to any honest minded person who so wishes.

— Nishra d'jilu (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 12:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I see neither D.M. nor M.D. in the link that you have sent. You do understand by the way that wikipedia is an online encyclopedia that relies mainly on information from the internet. Any way your reference loses credibility because it's so controversial yet nether the name of the book/paper/journal/article? nor the mane of the author is mentioned on any website. One more thing... According to wikipedia's policies original research is strictly prohibited.

For all these reasons I am bringing the old version back, until you can show some more reliable sources.Rafy talk 19:33, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Happy New Year. Today I find the time to reply. I can't believe that following my link you didn't come across "Daniel M." : His name appears at the last but one line of the page. By the way, you will notice that the name of the review, Studia Kurdica, is mentioned on this website, so your statement that "neither the name of the book/paper/journal/article? nor the name of the author is mentioned on any website" is proved untrue. Using google, here is a mention of Studia Kurdica from another source, or more interesting, here an interview mentioning the scientific interest of this very review.

Anyway, by delving further in the Internet, just scratching the surface, I came across this link, with an article dating back to December 2000, quoting precisely the very article I had referred to.

By the way, as you mentioned "original research", I aim to insist to make it clear I am not D.M., but still I am working on uploading this article (in French) to be accessed by a link in the upcoming months as it turns out that many people are ignorant of what happened in those times.

As an Assyrian myself, I am disappointed to find out that younger generations tend to rely too easily on internet sources. Indeed, articles on the very subject of A.P. with high scientific standards are hard to come by on the Internet. By that I mean that before the emergence of the Internet I had already studied the subject, reading books, meeting witnesses, and what I find here and there on the Internet sounds to me more like mythology than a complete picture of hard facts. Hence my surprise at your removing "big chunks" which were precisely referenced and leaving without scruples what was not referenced ! You will thus understand that I aim to restore the former version. A new reference that cropped up while researching on our matter will strenghten my point.

— Nishra d'jilu (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 13:17, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Happy new year too. Any addition is welcome here, however, many of your latest addition have a personal tone. for example the whole story about the "Château Novital" look more like it would better fit in some tabloid and not an encyclopedia. Again all contraversial issues are refered by a single work with the very peculiar name "studia kurdica", as you might know kurds and assyrians are not known to have a warm relation. so it would be safe to consider this source as POV to say the least. Something else i noticed was the use of unpopular names like "religious begging" (only 679 hits in google with 34 hits originating directly from this article). You might want to check This book before putting a source tag everywhere, I personally believe that this book is more reliable since it gets its references from newspapers from the great war era and original correspondences of Agha petros himself. Rafy talk 19:01, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I concur with Nishra Djilu's point of view. As far as I know, Mety isn't a Kurd person and his article seems very reliable to me. What a shame it can't be found yet on the Internet. By the way, as far as Novital's case is concerned, the story is well known to me too, and I guess one would find some piece of information about it in the archives of the local newspaper (Saint-Jory). — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 12:37, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

You are bringing some very controversial claims in an article with NO evidence. I couldn't find the name of the author neither the name of the book in you links. The [source] you have given never mentions Agha Petros being involved in "religious begging" in Canada and the "Vatican" (The name "Vatican" appeared after the Lateran Treaty 20 years later. by then the centre of the catholic church was simply refereed to as "Rome"). You both still fail to bring reliable and concrete evidence. Rafy talk 13:19, 23 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rafy (talk • contribs)

I guess the book you're referring to in the first line of your text is Methy's one. I don't owe the book but I know where I can find it. I will have a look to it within two weeks, and why not, send a copy to you if you're really interested. As far as The Cradle of Mankind is concerned, I didn't know the book, but I would have found it strange if the story about Canada wasn't mentionned in it, and in fact it was : Please have a look at the end of Chapter X (paragraph beginning with Ultimately, the Ottoman Government...), and you'll see the mention of British Columbia, which, as everyone knows, is part of Canada. A few lines later, The Pope, and the Holy Father are mentionned, but you're right, not the Vatican. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 14:27, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I still fail to verify the sources you've given, for example The Cradle of Mankind attributes these acts (fraud, etc) to "some Jilu men" and not to Agha Petros of Baz who is mentioned elsewhere. The french book is still unverifiable and the author is certainly obsecure. I have added another section concerning those controvesies but I intend on removing it unless some reliable sources are shown. Anyway you might want to check WP:UNDUE and WP:FRNG before making any other controversial edits. This might not be the place for this but may I know the reason of your obsession with this article? Rafy talk 15:20, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

As far as my motivations are concerned, they are that I think that a truth untold is as bad as a lie. And may I ask what are yours to hide some facts? Anyway, I find acceptable the way you turned the article by mentioning Methy with the facts he mentions even if I guess he is not the only one mentionning them and I disagree with your calling him "obscure". On top of that, you have linked some informations to this article which are not in it (namely the story about the mother). Would you send me an e-mail where to send you a copy of Methy's article, I gladly would, in order you to make your own opinion. My I ask the reason why you have deleted the reference to "The Cradle of Mankind" too ? Isn't Wigram one of the closest historian to this matter ? Who are the historians, what are the sources, that I could read in English, that you would call "reliable" ? — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 07:27, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Well when you find this and this and this edits made in less than a week and echoed in the french version makes me wonder whether it's a mere coincedence (I prsonally doubt that they are made by the same person).

Anyway... Wigram does not mention Agha Petros as the perpetrator of the aforementioned acts in British Columbia and Rome. He was obviously talking about some Jilu Men. Furthermore I intend on removing the Controversies Section alltogether if no reliable source is presented. And a non-traceable book from an unheard of person does not count as reliable. Rafy talk 12:53, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

As far as coincidences are concerned, I am not Nishra Djilu, on that you're right, and I am not surprised of a modification bringing about a reaction from somebody else in less than one week.

Anyway, I have just read again the excerpt of Wigram you were mentionning. Maybe have you read it too quickly : Wigram doesn't refer to "some Jilu men", as you put it, but to "the Ottoman Consul, a gentleman who (...) was one of the most successful of those “Jilu men” referred to in a previous chapter." I don't know many Assyrian who became an Ottoman Consul. Do you ? The reference to Petros is obvious to me. On top of that Petros is mentioned at least 30 times in the book. So why shouldn't we keep the reference ? — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 16:39, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

The consul with no name is of course Petros. Someone should take into account the book C.O.M. as a whole. Then after reading the pages 381 and 218 they will have no doubts on that question. Indeed, in the first one, Petros is explicitly named and a link refers to the second page where his "antecedents" are described.

On the other hand, I don't agree with the term "Controversies". Indeed, I don't remember having read anywhere that these facts were disclaimed untrue. — Nishra d'jilu (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 06:35, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Where did you get the stories of him killing his own mother and having orgies at his castle? You either bring sources or remove them. As for Wigram I'm really confused by his narration style, he claims that a certain "Petros" was involved in fraudulent acts in British Columbia and was later appointed a consul in Urmia, then he claims that there was a third person involved in avenging Mar Shimon's murder but "it can surely not be easy to find a parallel to Petros of Baz" in him. So what am I supposed to understand here is he the same person or not? Why all the ambiguity?

These story are just confusing and don't make sense to me. So if we try to recap your version:

He emigrated to Canada, posed as a fake priest, and slipped away just when he was about to be arrested by the police. Later he mysteriously appeared in Rome where he tricked the Pope into giving him an official title before showing up in the Ottoman Empire and shoving his way into becoming the Ottoman consul in Urmia. And of-course the British intelligence were following him all the way else how would we know all these stories. He then cowardly fought in the Great War. And was later exiled to France where he tricked the Red Cross (fourth time) into acquiring a castle there. He was later involved in killing his own mum and staging orgies all night long. He died of a heart attack while having sex with a prostitute.

Does this make any sense? And what makes it even more interesting is that all these stories appear to be written in Wikipedia and other forums by a single IP originating from France. How does this sound to you? I suggest that you both(?) clean up the mess you created in the french version before engaging in further discussions here. Rafy talk 13:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Many problems in what you are writing :

Where have you read that Agha Petros would have killed his own mother ? Someone well-read on this matter as you seem to be should know that the mother of Agha Petros died a few months AFTER him. You are the one who wrote such a nonsense here, attributing this piece of information to the obscure Méthy !

By the way, Méthy's article is on the internet here, maybe hadn't you looked enough for it. From now this article should be called verifiable. On the other hand, the book the Cradle of Mankind appears to me very interesting for two reasons : 1) it is the work of a contemporary person and 2)it is online. So why systematically deleting this source ?

The words of Wigram are not ambiguous : "Petros of Baz (...) whose antecedents are recounted page 318. And page 318 are to be found the story about British Columbia and the Pope. There is only one Petros of Baz who became Ottoman consul : the one you call Agha Petros, do you agree with that ? There's no need to talk about Shimoun on that question.

As far as Novital Castle is concerned, I put a [citation needed] in order people to bring information as I haven't got some right now. I wrote only the facts that appeared to me undeniable, but I know many others as I've been led to meet in France the people who knew Petros and his family. As you find that there is a problem with those facts I agree to delete them for the moment, but I know some proofs exist (and where I can find them) and I'll restore the facts when these proofs show off.

I'm not surprised that only few people bring sources or facts on Petros biography as not many people are informed on this matter. I'm taking it as my duty to let on what I know, namely about the shady side of this man.

Please if you are willing to remove some other facts. Please let on here what they are and why do you want to remove them. Particularly as far as FACTS BEING SOURCED are concerned.— Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 16:55, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

19 June 2009 at your first contribution to wikipedia, you yourself made those funny claims about Agha Petros killing his mother, having orgies, tricking the red cross and of course the fraud claims. And as far as this is concerned Methys clearly bases his claim on Wigrams book as you see from the footnotes. So we might as well remove him as a source since he merely copies from Wigram and puts in an anti-Assyrian context, very predictable.

The reason I mentioned Shimon is that that incident is mentioned thoroughly in this book, where Agha Petros along with others fought Simco and drove him out of his stronghold. Yet Wigram doesn't seem to be very clear about this. Even more he claims that this was a different person. I'm reverting your edits since they sound more like a personal attack against him. Rafy talk 18:19, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Please call a wikifireman (if you know how to do so) to clear the trouble.

For there is a trouble. Following the link you're giving. I didn't claim that Petros killed his mother. I reported that some people whom I know think that the death of his mother wasn't a suicide. Can you make a difference ?

As far as Méthy's reference is cocnerned, I think it should be kept anyway because, as you can see on the footnotes, he doesn't refer only to Wigram.

As far as Shimoun is concerned, the sentence "it sure can surely not be easy to find a parallel" is a far cry from "it is a different person".

All these three remarks make me think either you are used to reading too fast, either you are of bad faith.

I'm sorry but I can't exploit your link nor have an idea of its pertinence because I can't read this language. Please, if my arguments bother you, find reliable sources with counter-arguments rather than a simple deletion I will have to revert. My aim is not to attack Petros, but to highlight some facts that are sourced but sometimes untold. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 18:45, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok I revised the article for the last time hopefully. If you want to get a list of sources about Agha Petros feel free to check his extensive biography where you will find tens of references. The same book also mentions that Petros went to New York and met John D. Rockefeller, and after getting his signature he used it to attract customers to his rug shop in New York. I removed all references to Methys since he merely adds his own interpretations to primary sources and presented with a very anti-Assyrian tone. I still have questions to how information of fraud came to Wigram but I will leave them unraised since I'm tired of following this article. I suggest that you stop reverting this version and make other useful contributions to Wikipedia. Rafy talk 15:08, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Please. You have to respect my collecting reliable sources as well as my desire of truth. Unfortunately, the book you're referring to is unexploitable to me, and doesn't match the second point. I sincerely admire your being able to read it, on the other hand I think you should be more open to other points of view.

You shouldn't have removed Methy's book as his article is the fruit of a scientific work, which has been published in a respectable review. You're the one pretending he is adding his own interpretation, and using an anti-Assyrian tone. This is not my opinion. I am very concerned by the case of the Assyrians, and I wouldn't refer to this article if I thought the author wasn't sincere nor scientific. As the work of a historian, this source is a primary one in numerous cases, for instance the reference to Caujole. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 18:46, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

When Methy wrote (concerning the Assyrians) : "leur extraordinaire valeur combative", was he using a very anti-Assyrian tone ? — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 19:31, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

An excerpt from Methy:"Là, les immigrants assyriens se signalaient par leur ingéniosité à faire de la mendicité une activité lucrative et leur habileté à jouer sur les sentiments qu'inspirait cette minorité à des fins interressées." This is racist to say the least. And then he exuberates in describing how the Assyrians murdered Muslims brutally killing children playing on the streets and old men and women, one would wonder how come that Assyrians ceased to exist after the war while Kurds flourished, surely it should have been the other way around. By the way, who is Methys certainly a person with such an extraordinary scientific work should be teaching in some university, yet we fail to trace him. I'm sorry but I fail to see your concern for truth, was adding orgy stories and sock-puppeteering a way of showing it? Please refrain from reverting. If you add anything use the edit button and there is no need of thorough descriptions in the controversies section by copy-pasting, your edits make it look larger than the the rest of the article. Rafy talk 21:00, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

You'll have to agree that on the first point Méthy meets Wigram when he talked about "Jilu's men".

As far as massacres are concerned. There were on the both sides and when Methy wrote : "Le sort des "rayats" assyro-chaldéens des plaines et des vallées fut vite scellé. Soumis depuis toujours à l'impitoyable oppression des tribus kurdes, ces éternelles victimes furent l'objet de multiples exactions à l'ombre du massacre des Arméniens, et rejetées définitivement des préoccupations stratégiques des états-majors." doesn't he refer to Assyrians murdered by Kurds? His point of view isn't biased. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 22:02, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Please, to correct the problem you seem to have with the article of Méthy, use reliable sources but not censorship, which I couldn't tolerate. On top of that, I left the reference to Méthy in the "Controversies" section YOU have created. Therefore, I think people are advised enough to be careful with the references. Censorship is not the solution.— Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 22:26, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

The problem with your edit is that you is take all the criticism from wherever you can find it and stuff it all in this article. Agha Petros became famous for leading some Assyrians during world war 1 and becoming the head negotiator for them during the peace conference that followed. your fixation on criticism doesn't make sense and only works to distract the reader to it. If you have a personal quarrel with his family this is not the place to get back on him. If you're really interested in truth as you claim why not add sections to his battles? Aren't they more valuable than ambiguious allegations of fraud and murder and orgy stories?

Here is a list of biographies that makes no mention of him being in British Columbia:

1. Assyrian National Question at the United Nations, Sargon O. Dadesho, 1987, dedicates a whole chapter for the biography of Agha Petros.
2. آثار نينوى، يوسف هرمز جمو، 1937. Dedicates some pages to Agha Petros.
3. Agha Petros, King Sencharib of the 20th century, Ninos Nirari, 1989. An extensive biography that includes original letters and photographs.

I could bring more but I'm sure this won't affect your stubbornness since you have a hidden agenda behind you. Rafy talk 10:55, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

My aim in contributing to this article, is not to present whatever can be told on Petros, but only facts that are usually hidden : I know some other people, more knowledgeable than me, will present the rest. The vision of Petros in Methy's article is the nearest to the way I think Petros really was, considering what has been reported to me by some Assyrian who knew him in his latest days. That's why I insist on keeping this primary source, and I ask you not to delete it without the help of a "Wikifiremen". — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 16:38, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

This is not the place for investigative journalism, we merely cite the most common known facts. If you feel like looking for "hidden facts" then you might join a conspiracy forum. And again, tales of orgies and murder heard from grandma don't count as reliable sources.

As expected you again insist on inflating the controversies section with all the negative references you could possibly squeeze out of the internet. Imagine how George W. Bush's article would look like if you decide to edit there. Rafy talk 02:12, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

People share several points of view on Petros : some of them see him as a heroic leader, and I do not need the above-mentionned references to be aware of such arguments ; others see him as a crual general who made people be killed. It is untrue to let on that I gathered everything that could be written against Petros : indeed, I did not mention anything of this second point of view. Anyway, these two points of view to me are equivalent, or maybe someone could convince me that Petros was awarded medals for deterrence !

Another point of view, the one of historians I intend to support, is that P was able to deceive officials as well as his own people in order to satisfy his own ambition. For instance, he would have been to Lausanne more anguished for his own future than for the one of his people. Such a behaviour in the past meets the behaviour some people who knew him in his latest days reported to me. Some pieces of evidence in History works concur to this point of view and I intend to prevent people to hide them. This side of P. is part of the truth, I am not saying that it is the only truth by itself.

Eventually, I agree with your arguments, the shady facts that happened in France were interesting only because they could highlight a personnality and thus precise a vision of some events of the past. When in France, the destiny of Petros firmly parted with the one of the Assyrians.

— Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 12:30, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Third opinion

A request was posted on Wikipedia:Third opinion but there was no indication of the dispute. I am assuming this larger section of the talk page is the one concerned. Unforunately, a "third" opinion is not possible because there already appear to be more than two editors involved in the discussion above. Third opinion requests should be made to help resolve disputes between two editors only.

In any case, there seems to be a misunderstanding of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. There is no requirement for sources to be online. They can be available in books, journal articles, newspaper articles that predate the internet, government archives, or any other verifiable non-electronic sources. The only requirement is that it should be possible for any reasonable person to verify (say, by visiting a library) that the source meets the Wikipedia:Reliable sources requirements. Disputes about the reliability of sources should be taken to Wikipedia:Reliable sources noticeboard. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:35, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Rafy replied on my talk page: The issue now is not actually whether sources are to be found online rather than one source making ambiguous claims against others.

I'd say the undue weight policy would apply in that case. If most sources say one thing, and another says something else, then if all are equally reliable, the minority source deserves a mention, but no more than that. If the minority source isn't reliable, then it can be ignored. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:11, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree with this policy. No counter-argument with a reliable source "say[ing] something else" that what I have included has been presented yet. Until now, there is no mean to speak of a minority source nor a majority source. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 06:53, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Senchar

Does anyone know an English version of this book ? It would be useful in order to verify the reference. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 12:11, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Assyrian voice?

What's the use of this reference ? There is no indication on this website concerning the origin of the informations. — Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 17:06, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Same statement for this reference.— Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 18:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

One might as well how these claims were confirmed? The Interpol of 1910? Rafy talk —Preceding undated comment added 18:16, 3 February 2011 (UTC).

The articles I was referring to are very poor, their author are anonymous or impersonal. How can they be held as a serious reference ?

The word "source" as used on Wikipedia has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (the article, book), the creator of the work (the writer, journalist), and the publisher of the work (The New York Times, Cambridge University Press).

— Cimsam (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 18:56, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Massacres

There are accounts of Agha Petros committing atrocities too, these should be mentioned as well. In 'Shattering Empires: the Clash and Collapse of the Ottoman and Russian Empires', p. 158-159: "The British Major E.W.C. Noel described "the extermination of the town of Rowanduz and the wholesale massacre of its [Muslim] inhabitants", by what he dubbed the "Christian Army of Revenge" of Agha Petros as one example of a long record of outrages perpetrated by Russia and its allies that, he asserted, could easily match that of the Turks."

He was involved in massacres in Urmia in 1918 as well. Znertu (talk) 12:59, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

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