Talk:Agrapha

Sources for bringing this article up to date

As this article currently reads, it is a lightly revised copy of the Catholic Encyclopedia article, written at the beginning of the 20th century. Research has continued since then, & according to Robert E. Van Voorst (Jesus Outside the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2000], p. 183) there are over 225 such quotations; one major collection would be the Gospel of Thomas. Sources that would repay investigation include: Joachim Jeremias, The Unknown Sayings of Jesus (2nd ed., London: SPCK, 1964); Otfried Hofius, "Isolated Sayings of the Lord" in New Testament Apocrypha, ed. Wilhem Schneemelcher, & English translation, ed. R. McL. Wilson (rev. ed. Louisville: Westminster John Knox, 1991) 1:88-91; William G. Morrice, Hidden Sayings of Jesus (London: SPCK, 1997); William D. Stroker, Extracanonical Sayings of Jesus (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1989). -- llywrch (talk) 04:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

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Style of agrapha

Why have the sayings been written in King James English? No-one actually speaks like that anymore (and they certainly weren't written like that). --Scherben808 (talk) 15:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Removal of agrapha

Several agrapha have just been removed:

• Acts of Philip 34: "For the Lord said to me: Except ye make the lower into the upper and the left into the right, ye shall not enter into my kingdom."
  • Edit summary: "As the definition above said, apocryphal works are not included as agrapha. To put sayings from Gnostic works would be faulty and contradicting the category set mentioned above."
• Second Logion: "Jesus saith, Except you fast to the world, you shall in no wise find the kingdom of God."
• Third Logion: "Jesus saith, I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was I seen of them, and I found all men drunken, and none found I athirst among them, and my soul grieved over the sons of men, because they are blind in their heart, and see not."
• Fifth Logion: "Jesus saith, Wherever there are three, they are without God; and wherever there is one alone, I say I am with him. Raise the stone and there thou shalt find me; cleave the wood, and there am I."
• Sixth Logion: "Jesus saith, A prophet is not acceptable in his own country, neither doth a physician work cures upon them that know him."
• Seventh Logion: "Jesus saith, A city built upon the top of a hill and stablished can neither fall nor be hid."
• Eighth Logion: "Jesus saith, Thou hearest with one ear... ."
  • Edit summary: "This logion is part of Gospel of Thomas. An aporcyphal work from second to early third century. As the category set above mentioned, agrapha can not be from apocryphal works. This kind of examples will contradict the definition. Editors please check it again."

An earlier edit from 2020 also removed this one:

• 1 Cor 11:23–25: "The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.'"
  • No edit summary

I think the best approach is to include all quotes claimed by reliable sources to be agrapha, and then add notes if other sources say that they contradict the agreed definition of what agrapha is (assuming that there is a scholarly consensus on precisely what is and what is not considered agrapha; if not then we should document different definitions, and any academic disagreements). I haven't checked yet whether these are generally considered agrapha or not, but would be open to restoring them in the meantime. --Yodin^T 16:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)