Talk:Ailladie/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 21:33, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Comments

General comment - Would it be possible to go through and use a template to also display the values of distance in American units? I know there's also a template that converts miles to kilometers. For American readers, talk of kilometers is hard to translate into distance, and it would probably be helpful to provide some context there.  Done

Infobox - lacking citations (in prose or in infobox) for the distances to the nearest towns, lack of facilities, and the names of the climbs. Would it be helpful to create a section or subsection about the named climbs at the cliff?  Done; see below re comment on new section/subsection.

Lead - See MOS:LEAD. There's some stuff in the lead that isn't mentioned elsewhere in the article: The length and height of the cliff. This content would be helpful if additionally placed into the main body of the article.  Done - I created new sections on Naming and Structure for this material and expanded it.

Access - Citation needed for the first paragraph.  Done

Rock climbing - "The Dancing Ledges is the lowest section of Ailladie with several climbs of 10–15 metres." bears no citation in direct context to it. There's a citation at the end of the next paragraph, but it isn't clear if that citation is intended to cover this statement or not.  Done

"is often into a hanging belay" - What does this mean? The sector is into a belay, which can be either a climbing technique or a rock face, but something's probably off here grammatically because the sense doesn't quite work for either way.  Done - reworded this to make clearer.

"and protection is usually good." - This isn't really a GA-thing, but would using the full link of climbing protection be better? At least in America, "protection" is a widely used euphemism for various forms of contraception, so it might be best to be clear with that phrase.  Done

"(the current Ailladie online database, see below, has over 200)" Can we move this from a pointer to the external links to a direct inline citation, so the readers can more easily find what you're using to verify this statement? Actually, let's not make a citation, this appears to be a wiki. Since we can't cite this, and wikis generally are a no-no per WP:LINKSTOAVOID #12, maybe this needs to be removed altogether (or cited from a secondary RS mentioning the climbing database). Actually, I can't tell if this is suppose to refer to the UK Climbing database, or the database on the climbing wiki. This needs to be more clear. If it's the UK Climbing one, an inline citation would be how to handle it. If it's referring to the climbing wiki, it probably shouldn't be included, since we can't cite or EL wikis in most cases.  Done - have the UK climbing database

Abseil is linked twice in the same section, remove the second linkage.  Done

"nearly all single-pitch" - Is there a wikilink for the topic of single-pitch to guide to readers not familiar with climbing? See WP:JARGON.  Done

"dolerite Fair Head cliff " three links in a row, see MOS:SEAOFBLUE.  Done - I found two links?

" or Fanore for serviced camping grounds)" - Citation needed, Fanore is not mentioned in the next citation.  Done

Shore angling

Wikilink porbeagle, blue shark, and conger eel.  Done

" the ledges have seen several fatalities over the years of anglers who caught by sudden swells and large waves, and carried out to sea." - This should probably be " ... anglers who were caught by sudden swells ..."  Done

"As well as rock-climbing accidents (there are no recorded rock climbing fatalities at Ailladie), and shore-angling fatalities,[2][19][20] Ailladie's sea-cliffs also attract tourists" - The current structure of the sentence suggests that the cliff attracts fatalities like it attracts tourists.  Done

The Climbing bibliography section appears to be essentially a further reading section, which is generally found below the main article and the citations.  Done

Will get to the references later. Hog Farm (talk) 00:29, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

References - The online sources need accessdate parameters.  Done - finished now

What's ref 11 (O'Leary)? It's set up like a book reference, but has an isbn in the middle that doesn't seem to be related to a book with that title. Also, if it's a book, it needs an isbn number.  Done

Ref 12, the author link should be a piped link, if possible, to eliminate the (climber) qualifier.  Done

External links - There's a climbing wiki, WP:LINKSTOAVOID #12 probably indicates that this shouldn't be included. (see comments below)

Not sure about the YouTube external link, see Wikipedia:External_links/Perennial_websites#YouTube and the Vimeo ones probably aren't good. (see comments below)

That's it, I believe. Pinging nominator, Britishfinance. Hog Farm (talk) 01:30, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Reply

Hog Farm, thank you so much for that review which is very helpful. It was an article I did about a year ago, so I am encouraged that my standard then is not too far off GA. I am very busy in RL, but I think I have been also to respond to almost all of your suggestions and made the changes in the article (am going to finish off the "accessdate" part in all the refs later today - UPDATE, now done). I have responded to each one under your comment section above (if that is appropriate), and the outstanding ones are:

• Infobox. I think it would be too much to do a section-subsection on classic climbs (probably getting closer to being a guidebook)?
  • That's fine, it might indeed be too much. I see it's cited in the infobox now (the citations at the end to cover all), so that'll address the issue there.
• Irish Climbing Wiki. I would like to leave these refs in (and in the EL), as it is the best Irish reference site for Irish rock climbs (and I suspect that the UK climbing online database is a copy of it). I have used the UK climbing online database as the chief reference for WP:V purposes, but would still like to leave in references to the Irish Climbing Wiki database as I think readers looking at Irish rock climbing would find it useful.
  • ELs to stable and well-regarded wikis are an exception, and this one seems to be one.
• Youtube Links. There are some excellent youtube videos now of climbers on various climbs in Ailladie that are as useful to a reader as any text, I think these ones are particularly good and give a very informative visual representation of what the main climbs are like?
  • YouTube ELs are allowed under some circumstances (I didn't watch the videos, but your explanation makes it sound like they'd be allowed), but I'd still say Vimeo might not be the greatest EL source.

Thanks again for your review which was very helpful and insightful. My goal in submitting some of my articles for GA, it to pick up such things to improve my overall standard of writing. Britishfinance (talk) 12:03, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Since external links are technically outside of the purview of the GA criteria, I'll pass it now (a Featured Article review would likely flag Vimeo). One more tip, again not a GA-standard, but it's generally best to have the fewest citations in the lead as possible, and it looks like the two for the local names are no longer needed, as those facts are now cited later in the article. Passing now. Hog Farm (talk) 15:20, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks and understood Hog Farm, much appreciated :) Britishfinance (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2020 (UTC)