Talk:Aisha/Archive 2

2004

== What consummated really means ==amena

tr.v. con·sum·mat·ed, con·sum·mat·ing, con·sum·mates

  1.
        1. To bring to completion or fruition; conclude: consummate a business transaction.
        2. To realize or achieve; fulfill: a dream that was finally consummated with the publication of her first book.
  2.
        1. To complete (a marriage) with the first act of sexual intercourse after the ceremony.
        2. To fulfill (a sexual desire or attraction) especially by intercourse.

These are two possible meaning for the word consummated. Almost everyone thinks it's about sex. Consumated can aslo mean complete. Remember in early days of Arabia. A women was a tool. If a family got a daugther when they wanted a son they could bury her alive but doing that for a son was considered murder. Alot of people the Prohpet(PBUH) married were widowers who lost their husbands mostly from the battles. He married alot of them but he didn't have sex with all of them. Frankly this issue with Aisha is over blown by Anti-Islamists who look for reasons to discredit Islam.

"Almost everyone thinks it's about sex." If this is a misunderstanding, it could quite possibly be easily cleared up by going back to the original texts. The double meaning of the English word is not likely to exist also in the arabic word.

Story of the honey

a Sugestion:

no more of the honey. For this, the Prophet is addresed in a revelation with the rethorical question "why do you prohibit yourself" and answered in the same verse with "it is to please your wives, whatever had been made lawful by Allah was his to eat". Later (Qur'an 66:1). The viwes are then rebuked rebuked and warned in the folowing verses as "your hearts are inclined (to oppose him)"

Of course, it needs copyeditiong.

2005

Latest revision

I have rewritten Striver's version. The article still needs some work. It's now quite long, and there's too much verbatim quoting of hadith. I hope that Striver will accept my rewrite as a faithful representation of the Shia viewpoint, even if not as long and detailed as his. Zora 23:23, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thx for you time. May i propose to make a second version of the diffrent subjects att the end of the article where i can add all the details i want? --Striver 23:34, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, no. You can't add all the details you want. Or if you do, I'll trim them. Articles should be short, readable and NPOV. If you want complete control over an article about Aisha, you should write it and put it up on your own web page. If it's good enough, we'll link to it <g>.

It is also possible to write what are called "breakout" articles. If one particular issue threatens to take over an article, it can be given its own page. Muhammad's marriages were given just such treatment, as it would have swamped the main Muhammad biographical article. I don't think there's any issue relating to Aisha that deserves its own article, however.

As you seem to be quite interested in the early history of Islam, up through the Abbasids, you might want to look over the Wikipedia pages on these topics and make sure that the Shia viewpoint is well represented. I think there IS a Sunni bias to some of the articles. There are also a lot of early Islamic topics that need to be filled out in much greater detail. We could certainly use help there, especially from someone who reads Tabari. Zora 01:23, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thx for the tips, ill try to get there when i feel i have done an acurate and comprehensive work on representing the Shia view on Aisha in this article. I work that way, on thing in depht, then the next.

About this article. Why is it a problem in having realy big articles? I dont get the point of restrictiong it. If its about readability, then why not have a short and then a detailet version of the same topic?

As it is i realy feel that i dont get to add all the hadith that show why we argue as we do.

Wikipedia tries to keep articles under 31 or 32K. That's why when you edit the Aisha page now, a warning pops up saying that it's too long. If an article starts to get too long and complicated, we do breakout articles. Also, we try to link to web pages, or give references to books, that take up the issue in greater detail. Wikipedia is the starting point for research, not the end of it. Zora 04:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In my oppinion ther is a great deal to tell to show what she felt and why she felt so in regards to manny diffrent people. For example Fatimah, Ali, Abu Bakr, Umar and so on...

Then write a novel about Aisha. Actually, that would be very interesting. Zora 04:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As you can gues, ther are several persons and several diffrent ocasions (spellin?).

Whe Shia dont have a simplistic view of the people, that is "they alla loved eachothered and came along as great friends", no, we see theme more like in a soap oprah version where evreybody hade difrent views and angles on evereybody else, and in my oppinion its important to cover all importan persons that Aisha interacted with and how she did that to give a good picture of her aligeances. Its almost imposible to understand her psycology and why she rebeld agains Ali without having a simpistic view if we arent suposed to thuroughly go thruogh the background.

The background should be covered in OTHER articles about Islamic history. That's why we put links to the other articles in the text, so that someone who wants to find out more about Shia or Ali or Fatimah can do so easily, without having to conduct a separate search. That's why you really really should look at the other Islamic articles, not just this one, if you want to be sure that the Shia viewpoint is adequately represented in Wikipedia. Zora 04:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My spelling suck big time. I know. I dont have Word :(

Thx, and peace. --Striver 03:25, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You didn't tell us what subject and what details. The policy of wikipedia is NPOV (i.e. neutral), not Shi'a bashing of Aisha OneGuy 01:29, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Of course its not, but would'nt you agree that its within the NPOV to acurratlý describe the Shia stance on the topic and also why we belive as we do and what our arguments are? --Striver 03:07, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No, wikipedia is supposed to be NPOV. It's not the place to justify and promote Shi'a beliefs. It's not the place for Aisha bashing by Shias. Imagine a Christian apologist arguing that he would like to show why Islam is a false religion and Christianity is true. Would that be acceptable? Absolutely not. You need to take your pro-Shi'a apologetics to your own website OneGuy 03:20, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You seem to have somewhat misunderstood Wikipedia's NPOV policy. If in fact the majority of Shi'a think X about Aisha (I am not familiar with this facet of Islamic history/theology, so I will have to speak in abstract terms), then it is entirely NPOV to note that fact in the article (provided of course that it is noteworthy enough). Note: In this hypothetical example, I am not saying that "X about Aisha" is a fact, I am saying that "the majority of Shi'a believe X about Aisha" (my emphasis) is a fact. Noel (talk) 15:16, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I do understand it. By pushing Shi'a POV I meant quoting tons of hadith/other things (rambling on) on a very minor point in the article just to show that Shi'as are "right" (in his opinion) on that minor point in the article. He was doing the same thing in Muhammad article OneGuy 20:56, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Whell, ther is no problem having a christan saying his mind as long as he is stating that it is the cristian view. Anyway, i dont get the problem since i only quote Sunni sources. I mean, c'mon, why is the Sunni version supposed to be the correct one? Why is are the Shia not equally entiteled to give the Shia version?

Sunni vesion = evereybody are best friends. Shia version = they loved some and hated som people.

Whats whrong whith telling both sides?

Im not saying i want to take over the artikel, no at all. I just want to tell my version. Anybody else are welcomed to tell theirs.

--Striver 03:31, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No, it's a problem if a Christian says he wants to use wikipedia as a propaganda tool. Same rule applies to Muslims, Sunni or Shi'a. You can describe Shi'a belief but certianly not go into long rambling detail to justify them. I will delete any Shi'a apologetics if I see it OneGuy 03:47, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Giving all sides of a question is the Wikipedia way. But we have to give equal space to all sides AND we have to keep the articles under 32K. That can mean ruthless editing at times. That is, the Shias don't get as much space as they want, and the Sunnis don't get as much space as they want, and everyone is equally unhappy. Zora 04:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Where do i see how big the article is right now? --Striver 16:41, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

When you click on "Edit this page" a new page opens, and there's a warning at the top. You can't see it until you start to edit. Zora 18:36, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

hodge podge

This article is supposd to be about Aisha, yet is reads like a venomous debate between Shia and Sunni. Everytime some thing is mentioned about Aisha, there is another para nitpicking it. Every single historical figure has controversy surrounding it. But when writing about it one writes about facts. Here, the venom especially from the shiite side makes the article read like one of those "Opposing viewpoint" series essay. The article doesn't seem to inform about Aisha as much as it wholly bashes her character and the controversies surrounding this historic feminist and leader of Muslims. There should be only one section labelled "Controversies surrounding Aisha" thats it. It would give it more cohorence, NPOV and not read like a venom laden garbage that it currently reads like. IMO, the sunni historians read more like modern day secular western historians, where the purpose is pursuit of the truth rather than maligning a personality for one's favourite side and beleif system.

omerlives Omerlives 07:21, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that Aisha is an extremely controversial figure. We can't just decide that one version of the history is true, and disregard any other versions. Wikipedia tries to be NPOV -- neutral point of view. If there's a a dispute, we step back and try to give all sides in a neutral fashion, with links to outside sites and books if possible. That way a reader can look for more evidence and make up his/her own mind.

I do think that our Shia critic tried hard to turn this article into a critique of Aisha and that there's perhaps too much of that left. I'll take out some of the endless hadith "evidence" when I have time. But we can't just ignore the Shia point of view. To do so would be unfair to encyclopedia users, who might offend Shias out of ignorance if they assume that the Sunni view of matters is undisputed fact. Zora 07:34, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From his other edits and some of the articles he has created, it's pretty obvious that this guy Sriver is blatant Shi'a apologist who doesn't understand what NPOV means. Also, since 90% of Muslims are Sunni, so yes Sunni version would usually be used to describe what "Muslim" view is on the topic OneGuy 21:42, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, OneGuy, NPOV means taking account of minority views, not just majority ones. Not only are 10% of Muslims Shias, but Shias are in the news these days. I don't think the Shia views should take over the article, and Striver 'is' long-winded, so balance has to be restored. But at least he doesn't try to delete everything he doesn't agree with.

As I wrote on Striver's talk page, I think a large part of the problem is that he is trying to write history articles by jamming everything into biographical articles. I will start a bunch of articles on early Islamic history which are NOT biographical; you can too. You've already been doing some of this with your work on the Caliphs. Let's move Islamic history out of the biographies and into event-centered articles. How about starting with the Ridda Wars? Zora 22:05, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Im sorry OneGuy, but i have told several times, im quoting history books and more ore less established facts. You have not argued even one time with me on the validity of ANNY topic, only forwarded your opinion that im an "apologetic biased shia POV pusher". Get real and argue the topic, prove me wrong, tell me that Ali did NOT opposed Abu Bakr instead of raision votes for delition. Bukhari says that Umar said that Ali DID oppose Abu Bakr, so ´who are you to disagree? What does it matter if 90% of the Muslims dont want to aknowlege facts stated in their own books? Here we state facts, not Sunni POV, and, for example, Bukhari Says Ali DID oppose Abu Bakr.

Start seing the diffrens betwen Sunni POV and what Sunni books says.

And by the way, i usualy dont say "sunni says" or "muslim says", only "bukhari says" or "history of tabari says"

--Striver 21:46, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There are contradictory hadith and contradictory history that both Sunni and Shi'a use to justify their own belief. You think we don't know that? You keep stuffing the articles with hadith and other quotes that Shi'a use to justify their belief and call it "true history." This is blatantly obvious Shi'a POV pushing, apogetics, and propaganda OneGuy 21:54, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Omerlives, its not my intent to bash umm ul-momeenin Aishas character, rather its to stop the sunni sides "Aisha is best" aproch. And i use all Sunni sources to show facts about her, i dont give any single oppininon. An strangly some people, like OneGuy are critizing me for my efforts to include establishd historical facts, in for example, the article about Mohammed.

I mean, c'mon, since when is it bias to portray established facts? Im genuinly hurt by the fact that my efforts to include established, non-disputed facts from sunni sources are dissmised as "biased shia apologetic POV". *sight*

I mean, since when is "man kuntu mawla, alion mawla" a Shia POV? FFS, that makes me so mad and makes me feels poorly treated. So what that the Sunni OPINION is that mawla means friens, is that an excues to exlude that FACT that he said so? Since when do Sunni OPINIONS ´have bigger levereage that FACTS?

Like the fact that Aisha recruited Hafsa and two other wives to harras the Prophet, somthing that made the Prophet leave them for one month and at the end, for the SECOND time, made him think on terminating the marriage to Aisha. Even Umar admits it and gives some very heavy words to Hafsa for it, but still sunnis rather forget the whole thing, only because it remninds them to the fact that Aisha was not an angel. Anyway, the honny episode is now included, no thanx to the Sunni contrubutes. I mean, all of Surah of "the prohibition" is due to this incident, but still Sunnis whant it to be forgoten. I glad that OneGuy isnt here as well, otherwise he would have dissmised the whole honny episode as well as "Biased irrelevant shia apologetic POV. :(

And i havent even started talking about why she is called "Humayra". "The red lady". Use your imagination. Or Aisha hand her fatwa on nursing male adults. *sight* THAT would make Sunnis go berzerk if i started showing what Aisha realy said about that.

Fact: Aisha hated Ali, Fatimah, and Hasan (pbut). ITS FACT. Its all over sunni books. Sunnis dont want to aknowledge that, so instead of being facts, its "biased Shia POV".

Let me aske one thing: If one day, the "Flat Earth Society" would make 85% of the world to belive that the earht is flat, would the FACT that the earth is round to become "irrelevant, biased apologetic Ruond-Earther POV"?

Im talking ESTABLISHED FACTS in SUNNI BOOKS!

Geting tired of this. Only cause Sunnis dont like it, dosnt make it POV! Its SUNNI POV in that case, NOT SHIA POV!

(

--Striver 11:50, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

FACT FACT FACT FACT! stop labelling everything about your selective POV as fact. Unfortunately I donot have the time being a superbusy undergrad to start and correcting your article. My god! Books by most Western Historians read so much more better as one sees that they have made an HONEST attempt to present an NPOV. Just consider what if Ali by any happenstance was a controversial figure (which he too is) and say Sunnis had angst against him (which they dont) the way Shias do about virtually every other muslim figure save Ali's family. There could be produced a gazilion hadiths and rawayat's about Ali's incompetence, failure, impotence and what not. Just like any figure against whom any community has decided a negative mindset from the beginning. If you dont beleive it, ask any Chritian fundie about Mohammad and let im give you a course bout the vile Muhammad based on FACTS FACTS FACTS from sunni shia hadith quran and what not sources. Yet that article would NOT be balanced, neutral, honest by any chance even if countered in the second para by sunni writers. Read for example the acount on MOhammad by M. Hart in his book THE 100 in which he declares mohamad the most influential person and goes neither in overt sycophancy nor his personal POV. THAT is the honest attempt and that's the way an encyclopedia should read.

This is an encyclopedia, and try to educate people with honesty in your heart and that means honesty about all, the likes of Salman Rushdie, Hassan bin Sabah, Yazeed, Ali, Muawiyah, Khomeni,Bin Hanifa et al. omerlivesOmerlives 03:41, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Uthman's death and the Battle of the Camel

It wasnt khwarij rebels that surounded Uthman, they khwarij group did come into existense util the forced arbitration of Ali and Muaviya.

Its in both Sunni and Shia sources that Hasan and Husain defended Uthman live, not only Shia sources.

--Striver 17:40, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

dear u can write it is arabic name as Jung a Jamal ,if i am not wrong.

User:khalidkhoso

Agurzil's edits

There is a non-NPOV in the article, first it says that tabari was an "early" chronicler (what an ingnorance!), second it clearly makes a logical mistake : the tilte says aicha married when she was 9, and in the text it says 6!!!! if the word marriage doesn't suits you, change it! the reader has to know that Aicha ACCEPTED to marry when she was six. I will change all the non-NPOV.--Agurzil 08:25, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Agurzil, please be polite. Early is relative. Tabari is later than Ibn Ishaq and Waqidi, but not all that much later, and he's a primary source for much of what we know about early Islamic history. As for your insistence that Aisha was married at 6, using "marriage" for the ceremony that occurred is misleading -- betrothal would probably be more exact, as the marriage wasn't consummated and Aisha continued living with her family. Insisting on using "marriage" in this context is irresponsible, especially as this is a contentious question.

"early" was used in a misleading manner, insinuate that tabari lived before Boukhari or muslim, and that it was him who reported the hadith, whereas he just reported the work of Ibn Ishaq... and Tabri lived FOUR centuries after the death of Mohamed.

Consumed or not consumed, a marriage is a marriage, and it was explicitely said that she had sexual relations 3 years later after the marriage the reader cannot be mislead. in my family the same thing happens, sometimes couples start living together for one or two years after the marriage... it's not just a betrothal that could easily be cancelled, and the reader HAS to know that Aicha agreed when she was only 6 years, this is a very important fact that should not be disguised. --Agurzil 17:23, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The hadith doesn't say she lived with Muhammad before she was nine. OneGuy 20:55, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, and I don't think that is what Agurzil claim eighter. Stereotek 07:42, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Accusing everyone else of ignorance and illogicality befits your namesake, the Berber god of war, but it doesn't help us work together to produce useful articles. Zora 11:24, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I accused the guy who reverted my edit.--Agurzil 17:23, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Agurzil claims that hadith says that Aisha lived with Muhammad when she was 6. That's not what the hadith says:

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. OneGuy 22:15, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Really? Where does Agurzil make the claim that Aisha lived with Muhammad when she was 6? As I understand it, his claim is that Muhammad married (or betrothed) Aisha when she was 6, and started living with her 3 years after, when she was 9. That is (as I understand it) also the claim of the hadith, that you just mentioned. Stereotek 07:32, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't know what I should call you. Djames, Mahay, or Stereotek, but read above. Here is where Agurzil makes that claim: All the hadiths say that aicha lived with mohamed before having sexual relations with him. [1] OneGuy 08:00, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to call me whatever you like. :-) Anyway, when I look back through the history of this discussion, I must admit that you are right. But this being said, I think we should also consider that fact that he, himself, removed that comment 4 minutes after he wrote it. [2] Another fact is that he did not include that claim in his version of the article. Stereotek 09:27, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I will explain why I did a confusion in writing that aicha lived with mohamed before having sexual relations (Only for 4 minutes as noted by Stereotek): it was because of this hadith

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.Book 008, Number 3311:

I couldn't imagine a man having sexual relations with a girl still playing with dolls, that is why I thought she lived with him between 6 and 9 years old, I think we should add these two hadiths because it is a good evindence of her non-puberty (physically and psychically) at the age of 9.--Agurzil 17:21, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC

I think we should add a new section called "the implication of Aicha's marriage in sharia", for example, a girl can be married at the age of 9 in Iran.--Agurzil 17:21, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A 14 year old girl can also play with "dolls." In the US, there are older women who collect dolls. In any case, like Striver, here we have another POV pusher who is turning the article into unreadable mess by copying and pasting repetitive hadith that he thinks will push his POV. What's the point of cutting and past the exact similar hadith narrated by the same person and from the same hadith collection? If Aisha or Bukhari are wrong/lying in one place, they are wrong/lying everywhere. OneGuy 18:45, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

First of all, please, let's not start calling each other too many strange names. (POV pusher and such...). Another thing is that the hadiths that you just deleted, was not all from Bukari and all of them was not narrated by Aisha. As a matter of fact two of them was not...

1) Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

2) Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

I just added these two again. Stereotek 19:39, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Actually the situation is even worse. All of these hadith on Aisha's age were reported by Urwa (also known as Abu Hisham). If you look at the chain of narration, even the hadith where the first narrator is claimed to be Aisha, the person who is quoting Aisha (in the chain see Isnad) is Urwa (or Abu Hisham). I was correct. It's basically a repetition of the same information from the same source (Urwa) and should not be repeated OneGuy 19:46, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

All the hadith on Aisha's age include Urwa in the chain of narration? That surprise me! Anyway, out of interest, could you please mention your source for that information?

Another ting is that you changed Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 from Narrated Ursa to Narrated 'Urwa. I find it a bit hard to track down a source that support that specific change. Maybe you could mention yours? Stereotek 09:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Major edit

I removed the bit re the age of marriage in Iran -- that's irrelevant to Aisha. I also rewrote much of what Striver contributed. I hope the article flows more smoothly now. Zora 19:17, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am not even sure these claims about Iran are entirely true.

Legal age for brides lifted to 13
24jun02
IRAN'S arbitrating body has approved a reformist law increasing the minimum marriage age from 9 to 13 for girls and from 14 to 15 for boys. The new law stipulates that marriage of girls under 13 and boys under 15 will require court permission, the government-run daily Iran has reported. It gave no further details.

The law's approval is seen as a victory for Iran's reformists, who have sought to promote women's rights. The elected legislature passed a similar Bill in August 2000, but the hard-line Guardian Council rejected it as contradicting Islamic sharia law. Now, the Expediency Council, which arbitrates between parliament and the Guardian Council, has passed the measure into law. Officials were unavailable for comment. "This is yet another fulfillment of promises of reformists, especially female lawmakers, who had promised to protect women's rights," said lawmaker Fatemah Khatami. "Still, we have a long way to go to provide adequate legal protection for women." [3]

OneGuy 19:31, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Anon IP attacking article

Some anon editor with a strong attitude is trying to revive the "Muhammad is a pedophile" controversy. He seems to be intent on removing one portion of a sentence in which it is noted that some Muslim commentators insist that Aisha was post-pubescent at nine. I was the one who wrote that; I was the one who read exactly that defense on several Islamic web pages. I recall some wording like "girls grow up faster in the desert". Now I think this would be a symptom of a severe hormone disorder myself, and thus highly unlikely, but I was just reporting what I read.

I believe that this could possibly be a resurgence of Pename -- wasn't he banned for a year? I don't understand why this IP is able to post. Zora 08:20, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, this is another POV pusher who is already on POV and vandalism parole. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/168.209.97.34 OneGuy 08:22, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Zora, your friend OneGuy is now roping you into his 3RR violationn, FYI. He is using you as a reference as to what a bad "vandal" I am... LOL.. See [4] 168.209.97.34 08:36, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

OneGuy simply reverted without bothering to discuss it, besides garbled comments in the edit summary. He reverted 4 times and has been reported. I originally put back in there that it was highly unlikely that Aisha was post-pubescent at the age of 9. It was there for months and only removed two days ago. As soon as I put it back OneGuy went on the attack. And I am not trying to revive the "Muhammad is a pedophile". I simlply said some critics say that is a possible reason, just as some islamic apologists think aisha was post pubescentn at the age of 9. I didn't add the pedophile part to the article though, I just asked him why only put one point of view in there. 168.209.97.34 08:25, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's perfectly legitimate to revert vandalism (removing factual information) more than three times by a known abuser already on POV and vandalism parole OneGuy 08:31, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You might want to check your "facts". Most muslims don't believe Aisha was 9 year old, so they don't even touch on the issue of if she was post-pub at the age of 9. Your edits show that you too doubt she was 9 years old. So not only did you not give both arguements, you gave your side with factually INcorrect information. 168.209.97.34 08:34, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

this happened in the 7th century, man. You were not there. We only even know about it through 'muslim sources'. It's very simple. The sources should be listed, it should be put into the proper 7th century Arabian context (i.e. nobody even raised an eyebrow, at the time!), and usual interpretations (she was post-pubescent etc.) should be given. We are not discussing whether she was indeed post-pubescent, this would be futile. We are just citing authorities on the subject. OneGuy, the removal of the "post-pubescent" passage is not strictly vandalism. Especially since "usual response" seems a bit weasly. But if it is indeed the usual response, it should of course be here, and I'll help putting it back. dab (ᛏ) 09:06, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How about this. We put it back to the way it has been for months on end. It used to say something to the likes of "the usual response was that Aisha was post-pub (although medically it is unlikely) ...". It was that way for months and then was removed 2 days ago. As soon as I re-added it OneGuy started a revert war until he finally got blocked. 168.209.97.34 09:31, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether this statement was in the article before. It's factually incorrect to claim that nine year old girls can never reach puberty NICARAGUAN GIRL, 9, RECEIVES ABORTION. OneGuy

Just because there are a few freaks of nature doesn't mean it's a normal occurrence. It is simply speculation. One could also speculate that Muhammad was sterile because despite all of his wives he only had one child, who died shortly after birth. We could also speculate the mother of that child was sleeping around (like Aisha is accused of) and the father wasn't even Muhammad. We could also speculate that Aisha never had children because of internal damage she received when having the marriage consumated at an early age. I'm not saying any of that is true, all I'm saying is the fact that Aisha was post-pub is speculation and is not supported by any authentic scripture or any other valid source. 168.209.97.34 07:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

fine. can we also do some actual, unbiased research on it? I would be interested about the history of this in islamic writing. I.e. was it even seen as an issue, were there disputes about the puberty thing, and who are the authors who advanced either view? "usual response" somehow just isn't good enough. dab (ᛏ) 09:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

---

It would be a monumental task to track down the history of this controversy. My suspicion is that it's fairly recent. It's reminiscent of the 1980s and early 1990s hysteria over multiple personalities/satanic ritual abuse/pedophile rings/day care trials &c. I would guess that this criticism was first raised by Christian polemicists and then the Muslims started responding to it. Several of the sites I found referred to this as a recent slander by Orientalists.

I found three websites where the "early menarche" explanation is given:

• [5]
• [6]
• [7]

I trust that's sufficient evidence? Zora 10:42, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

sure, I don't doubt it is the usual response. I just meant that it'd be nice to be able to be a bit more specific. Also,

Prophet’s marriage to `Aisha, the Mother of the Faithful, has always been a subject of attack and criticism by the enemies of Islam. seems to gesture at a longer history of the controversy, but I doubt it has been brought up before modern times, but maybe we can dig up some 16th century Christian rants about this? dab (ᛏ) 11:59, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, this is very modern internet phenomenon. If you read older polemics, you won't find it there. At least I haven't seen it in older Christian/secular books published online OneGuy 21:04, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

well, then the whole thing is not very notable, is it? A short paragraph saying that internet proselytizers recently have been calling 'child abuse' should suffice. This article should focus on the cultural background, what authors wrote about Aisha, the sort of thing now dealt with in two sentences, "in Shia..., in Sunna...". I mean seriously, who cares if a girl back in the 7th century was 9 or 14 when she married. dab (ᛏ) 08:41, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The material is there because the article is a frequent target of anti-Islamic POV warriors. Before this topic was split off from the main Muhammad article, the POV warriors were busily trying to insert "Muhammad is a pedophile" in the main article. Rather than go through the same fight over and over again, we have it all laid out, both sides.

That sufficed for a while at least. Sigh .... Zora 08:52, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

~~

Nobody reeacting to the pedofilia link in "How old was Aisha when she was married?"? --Striver 16:18, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Striver, I looked at that, thought it was a bit of a low blow, and then considered that anyone who read the pedophilia article would realize that it didn't describe a man who usually married older widows! But if you want to remove it, please do. Zora 18:38, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I removed a website added by anon editor

An anon editor added a link to another website arguing that Aisha was older than 9 when married. The addition was in the wrong place, in the wrong form, and the website to which it linked was diffuse and confusing. There is already a link to a very succinct and well-written presentation of the evidence. Surely that is sufficient example of this POV. Zora 11:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Eagleamn's edit

A new editor named Eagleamn added "Battle of the Camel" to one section of the article. I reversed his/her edit, because the battle is already mentioned twice, once in a section heading and once in the course of the narrative. I don't think the addition is necessary, and it throws the rhythm of the sentence off. Eagleamn, of course you're free to come here and argue about it <g>. Zora 21:31, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Anon editor's addition re Aisha's age

An anon editor added another item to the list showing that Aisha was post-pubescent. Some of the information in that item simply duplicated info already given. There was new information, re a ten-year age difference between Aisha and Asma, and an assertion that Asma died at the age of 100 in 73 AH. However -- this new information was not sourced. I find the assertion that Asma lived to the age of 100 a little hard to believe. It seems more likely to me that neither Aisha nor Asma knew precisely how old she was, given the way people dated at that time, and the frequent controversies re dating various events in early Islamic history.

If there's a new argument to be made, it should be sourced. Zora 07:16, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Another anon

This time the anon argued that Aisha was clearly Muhammad's favorite wife and that um, "his potency was increased 40 times over". Ugh. That sounds like a Viagra ad and it's highly debateable. Zora 06:42, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just have to ask: why this contempt against anon users? EliasAlucard|Talk 09:34, 14 Jun, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm just cranky from a lot of reverting vandalism lately, but it seems to me that for every anon IP who's just a new editor, a bit confused, doesn't know how to set up an account, may break rules out of ignorance, there are ten or twenty anon editors who are sockpuppets, pushing POVs or committing vandalism. But you may be right that I was too acerb in rebutting an edit that was "unfortunate" but not clearly vandalism. Zora 07:43, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, I have to acknowledge: most vandal edits come from anon users, but every now and then, some anon user adds pure facts. This pretty much makes it difficult to differentiate between what's vandal, and what isn't. Now, I'm not saying that this was or wasn't vandalism, all I'm saying is that you should be wary to not judge every anon edit as vandal. Personally though, if I were in charge, I'd make Wikipedia an account edit only encyclopedia.

EliasAlucard|Talk 12:01, 14 Jun, 2005 (UTC)

How old was Aisha when she was married?

It seems that more context is needed here. What were common practices around the world, especially with arranged marriages? What were common practices with the nobility class? My belief is that whether the age was 9 or 14, in the age of survival of the fittest, in the age before female education and autonomy, before the development of modern medicine and psychology, the ancient notion was that there was likely nothing wrong with this practice. --Noitall 21:35, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

About the only context we have is anthropological, for various pre-modern societies. Many of them marry off females at an extremely early age, while they are still pre-pubescent. However, my understanding is that these marriages are not consummated until the bride is post-pubescent. Early marriage is usually seen by the parents as a kind act, assuring the girl's future. It can also be a way of ensuring that arranged marriages go ahead as planned, while the girl is still young and docile, and hasn't formed her own preferences. Both nobility and peasants practice early marriage.

Since what counts, socially, is the marriage, that's what is recorded. I would guess that recording the date and time of consummation would be much less common, and much harder to document -- especially for societies we only know through fragmentary records and archaeological evidence. I dunno how much physical anthrologists can figure out from bones -- age certainly, having born children, possibly -- but virginity is NOT something they could possibly deduce.

I need to get a copy of Robertson-Smith, Kinship and Marriage in Early Arabia, and put it through Distributed Proofreaders. It's old, but it's still one of the few sources for pre-Islamic Arabia. Zora 23:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I was reading a "hadith" in which some contemporary denounces Ibn Ishaq as a liar the other day. The reason he gave was that Ibn Ishaq claimed to have heard a hadith from the contemporary's wife, who, supposedly, had never spoken to a strange man since her marriage at the age of nine. From the tone of the narration, I think we can safely assume that early marriage was considered fairly normal in Ibn Ishaq's time. - Mustafaa 23:46, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The facts in Arabia are certainly relevant. But the people espousing this point are really comparing it to Western values, if there was such a thing at that time. I do not like anachronistic analysis and that is what happens when we look at yesterday through the knowledge and values of today.

--Noitall 01:39, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

I commend Noitall and Mustafaa's courage in asserting that having sex with nine year-old children is a morally neutral act, and not to be judged out of cultural context. I may find their opinion disgusting and perverse, but I admire their conviction. Babajobu 14:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For anyone who reads and thinks about what I stated above, I made no such assertion about morals or my own personal convictions. Further, morals require enlightenment and my argument was that a milenium ago they were not enlightened as some of us are today. Of course, your backhanded slap without addressing the argument or offering any context or history or providing sources or research may show that not everyone today is enlightened either.

--Noitall 14:43, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Don't know what you're objecting to. You say you dislike it when "we look at yesterday through the knowledge and values of today." I'm applauding your bold willingness to disregard simplistic and presentist notions of the instrinsic distastefulness of sex with small children. You complain that I offer no context...of course not, I'm affirming your point about the importance of context; surely the importance of context is true regardless of context, no? Perhaps context is only "important" in the eyes of people enmeshed in our own present historical context, just as sex with nine year old girls is only pederasty when considered in the same arbitrary context. Babajobu 15:06, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • Actually, I take back my compliment. You say: "morals require enlightenment and my argument was that a milenium ago they were not enlightened as some of us are today." So you're saying that Muhammad's behavior was the product of not being enlightened. He does one thing you disagree with and so suddenly he's uncivilized. You, sir, have no appreciation for the importance of context. One man's "enlightenment" is another's ignorant heresy. Go join the Bush administration, you neocon fanatic. Babajobu 15:21, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, both points refer to marrying nine-year-olds. As Zora notes, finding information on the age of consummation is much more difficult. The youngest marriage I know of (from the Guiness Book of Records) was of a 1-year-old to a nine-month-old, I believe; we can safely assume it wasn't consummated for some time...- Mustafaa 19:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Babajobu is very confused about many things. You are attacking me and you don't even have any idea of what ideas you are attacking. My point is that Muhammad's behavior in this particular aspect was the product of his times. People were commonly betrothed prior to the age of 9, even at birth, see the entire history of European prince and princesses. Kings ran countries and executed people by this age. It was not a time where you needed to be 18 to get a driver's license or drink a beer. Sickness felled a large percentage of families and they did things early. Even though I am a Christian, I am no bible expert, but I bet you would find a lot of passages in the Old Testiment where it was pretty normal to marry and, presumably, consumate the marriage, early. --Noitall 19:32, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

• • Betrothal is not the issue here; we're talking about sex with a small child. How young a child was Aisha when first Muhammad copulated with her? Traditional answer: nine years of age. It is this simple fact that neocon presentist fanatics like Noitall insist on condemning as "unenlightened," even as they acknowledge the importance of cultural context in understanding and evaluating an individual's actions. When will the judgmental madness end?? Babajobu 01:06, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

---

Yabbut, the same people who insist on believing the hadith that she was nine also assert that she was post-pubescent, because "Arabian girls matured earlier". Yes, this is bogus, because all the evidence is that the age of menarche in traditional societies was higher than it is now, in these days of good nutrition. But that seems to me to be good evidence that:

• For religious reasons, the traditionalists cannot doubt the hadith, because so much of Islamic law is derived from Aisha-sourced hadith.
• They want to believe that Muhammad is the pattern of human perfection.
• They think sex with pre-pubescent females is squicky.

The only possible solution is claiming that Aisha was post-pubescent at nine. This says more about the ulema, IMHO, than it does about Muhammad. Zora 01:59, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think Zora's assessment is right on the money. There is no earthly reason to suspect that Aisha would have been post-pubescent at nine years of age; the plainsense truth is that she was likely to be far less physically developed than today's girls of wildly early menarche (eleven or twelve years old, in many modern cases). The inevitable jerry-fix is that Allah expedited Aisha's physical development so that Muhammad could get his freak on. However, this is not of encyclopedic value. Anyway, who are we to judge? Babajobu 11:25, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I just want to address personal attacks by Babajobu. I don't mind personal attacks, I am a big person. But please make them somewhat relevant to the issue. I have made no edit here on this article, and only initiated a discussion to find out other POVs and other people's research or knowledge. Thus Babajobu's cannot be based on some edit he fundamentally disagrees with or the fact that I reverted his cherished bit of words or POV. Babajobu has called me all sorts of names, and I really do not know why, and made all sorts of scattered assumptions based on the articles I have edited, not on the what I have actually edited in those articles. Basically, all Babajobu has proven here is that he/she virolently leaps to conclusions without thinking. For the rest of you, thank you for your comments. --Noitall 13:52, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

I read Noitall's talk page, and agree that that's a pretty fun use of "nonetheless." Babajobu 23:01, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Having looked at Babajobu's user page, and tried to talking him/her/it reasonably, I can only conclude that he/she/it feels contempt for the rest of us puny humans and is just toying with us for the entertainment value. This is a change from the usual wingnut POV warrior we get on Wikipedia. He/she/it is to be briefly relished and then ignored. Zora 01:29, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I was being serious when I said that I agreed with Zora's assessment. Babajobu 04:09, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What does it matter what age Aisha was when she was married to Mohammmed (peace be upon him). To imply that Mohammed was a very very bad man is offensive. Many people back then were very young when they got married. Many times, marriages in Europe of Kings were at a young age. Saduj al-Dahij 13:51, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

• The point I was leading to was an anachronistic analysis that this was a common practice when norms were entirely different. For instance, almost 1000 years later, see Captain John Smith and Pocahontas. --Noitall 18:45, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

I took the following out since Aisha, being Muhammad's close companions daughter, and Muhammad knew each other long before getting married.

Narrated 'Aisha: "I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) 8:73:151

Here is some research on this subject using more than one references:

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

I quote

"Later research

Research subsequent to the time of Maulana Muhammad Ali has shown that she was older than this. An excellent short work presenting such evidence is the Urdu pamphlet Rukhsati kai waqt Sayyida Aisha Siddiqa ki umar (‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life’) by Abu Tahir Irfani.[4a] Points 1 to 3 below have been brought to light in this pamphlet.

1. The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” [5]

Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.

2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:

“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.”

This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

3. The same statement is made by the famous classical commentator of the Holy Quran, Ibn Kathir, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:

“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.”

Apart from these three evidences, which are presented in the Urdu pamphlet referred to above, we also note that the birth of Aisha being a little before the Call is consistent with the opening words of a statement by her which is recorded four times in Bukhari. Those words are as follows:

“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.”

This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practising Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet received his mission from God. If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion. This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.

Maybe retards here should try to know the true meanings of word "research"

From the link you posted about Aisha being Mohammed's wife: "Such a person would need to possess the following qualities: an excellent, precise memory to retain a vast amount of detail accurately"

Yet she couldn't remember how old she was when her marriage was consumated? Or are you saying she lied? Rhm01 23:47, 23 Sept 2006

redirect

I do agree that this article is just fine as it is, absolutly.

I made that change to try to standardize all article, following "Name ibn/bint Fathers name". Its more practical in the long run, specialy if you have lots of articles....

Dont you agree its better to standardize?

--Striver 30 June 2005 01:11 (UTC)

You should have talked to other editors before you started moving and revising articles to fit them in your new grand scheme.

I agree that it would be a good idea to post genealogies -- such as the one I started for Ali ibn Abi Talib -- so that readers could make sense of the relationships between early Islamic figures, IF THEY WANTED TO DO SO. However, this does not need to be the very first thing in the article. Someone consulting Wikipedia to find out who Aisha was, doesn't want to start with a genealogy. This is extra material.

Redirecting from the name that everyone knows and encounters to a name that no one knows is also a bad idea. Zora 30 June 2005 01:24 (UTC)

You are absolutly correct, i apologise for redirectin Aisha without consulting. And you initative about Alis geneology is far better than mine, ill move the "family tree" to an article resebling yours and, as you did, link to it from the main article. Again, a great initiative!

About Aisha, dont you agree its better to redirect to "Aisha bint Abu Bakr" to make it fit my "new grand scheme" ;P  ?

Peace!

--Striver 30 June 2005 01:37 (UTC)

request

i want to add this:

"=== Muawiya ===

Thenceforth she lived a retired life until both his brother where killed by Muawiya ibn Abu Sufuyan. She became furious and became vocal, causin her to be killed by Muawiya in approximately 678."

after the end of the battle of the cammel. Any comments?

--Striver 30 June 2005 02:19 (UTC)

I see that part was totaly ignored... well, ok, lets just say she died in a "unknown event"... *sight*

Regarding sharia faling apart if Aisha not being trustworthy, that does not apply to shias, we dont consider her trustworthy to begin with.

--Striver 00:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

---

Sorry, I didn't SEE your comment until now. His brother? Whose brothers? That is not clear at all. Nor is it at all clear that Muawiya killed Aisha. The more hadith I read, the more conspiracy theories I find. Anyone who is said by one faction to have died of illness or old age is said by another faction to have been poisoned. At this time, unless we could find the grave, exhume the body and test it to see if any poisons have survived the millenia, we can't be sure about ANY of the poison theories. I don't see that there's any point in mentioning them.

As for the point re Shi'a not considering Aisha-sourced hadith reliable for law, that's a good one, I'll make changes. Zora 01:15, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr and Abd al-Rahman ibn Abu Bakr. About the old age thing, who said Aisha died of old age? I have never heard of a alternative view. Regarding the second, thank you. --Striver 02:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I found one reference in Madelung to Aisha's rage at Muawiya's murder of her brother, and desecration of his body -- only the one brother cited. Wasn't the other brother killed by Marwan, not Muawiya? Would take some research to dig up. Madelung has nothing re the death of Aisha. After much googling, I came up with one Shi'a account saying that Muawiya dug a pit for Aisha, into which she fell and was killed. This was held up to Sunni derision on the talk forum where I found it. Re poison, you may be remembering stories that Muawiya had Husayn ibn Ali poisoned, by bribing his wife -- also a Shi'a story, denied by Sunni.

This is a period not covered by my Ibn Ishaq. My copy of Ibn Sa'd isn't here yet, and I only have one volume of Tabari, for a different period. I can't find any record of an English translation of al-Waqidi. Do you have any cites OTHER than late, Shi'a oral traditions? It sounds to me as if the claim that Muawiya murdered Aisha is just one more attempt to blacken the name of Muawiya. Zora 05:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I have no first hand sources regarding this, only shia books in shia sites. And the book calims Mauwiya also poisoned the second brother and also gives a context to it. You can find a link to it in the brothers article. Wheter its true or not is irrelevant, we are not here to judge its auteticity, only to report it. You can write "shia cite sunni sources claiming Aisha was burried alive by Muawiya".

--Striver 17:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I looked at the two articles on Aisha's brothers, and they refer to extremely biased and unscholarly sources. There's nothing in either one about Aisha's death. Please give me some references that would prove that Shi'a as a whole believe that Aisha was murdered by Muawiya. Zora 00:24, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Right now i cant offer more proof that all shia i have talked to and all shia sources i have read, whenever they have mentioned her death, they have claimed Muawiya did it. That is good enough for me. Sister, i cant find a "scholarly" referens for every single thing i know, in this case it should suffice that al-islam.org, answerig-ansar.org and shianews.com claim it. They all three are among the most prominent shia sites on the net.

By the way, could you add that she liberated Barirah mawla Aisha before hijra?

--Striver 21:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Striver, no, I don't want to link to that article. It has zilch relevance to Aisha, and it's a bad article. It seems to be part of your campaign to import all the hadith you encounter, good and bad, into Wikipedia, one by one. Turning us into Hadithipedia, I suppose. For hadith, LINKS are enough. Putting them in Wikisource is also good. But an article for every hadith you like ... please, no, Striver.

If you can't offer proof, I'm not going to do any more googling. You seem willing to believe anything as long as it strikes your fancy. I can't be sure if what you say is majority Shi'a opinion, or better yet, educated Shi'a opinion, or if you just found it in a chat room. That's why I want cites! Links! Zora 22:59, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The story of the honey

It's good that Zeno brought up the alternate explanation of sura 66. I wasn't aware of the two explanations until now, but I think this makes perfect sense. I think the two explanations should be explained in more detail, rather than just a link to the concubine/wife Maria being given. I'll do it when I can. However, I don't think it's true that the Shi'a reject the story of the honey, since it was a Shi'a, Striver, who added it in the first place. Of course, Striver does not necessarily reflect the views of all Shi'a. Again, research would be needed. Zora 18:32, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Im a little bit unsure, i have seen a shia mentione the alternative version, but i was prone to see it as a rare stance, since i have not seen other shia oppose the honey version. I judge that most shia also belive the honey version to be accurate, but i might very well be wrong. I have mentioned the honey version in front of very educated shia, and nobody even hinted that it might be incorect. More investigation is needed to prove that shia belive in the alternative version, and how manny of them do so. I personaly object to the alternative view --Striver 03:47, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I dont get this, the siege guys have changed all over WP that "shias", impling all of them, question the story of the honey, and they have not used one single source for that, it bothers me that when i whant to add something, then 30 outside sources proove nothing about shia view, but when siege wants to add, then 0 links is adequate sourcing. Bah!

--Striver 12:28, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Zeno of Elea changed

"Some secular scholars believe that the historicity of the story of the honey is questionable."

to

"Secular scholars and Shiah Muslims believe that the historicity of the story of the honey is questionable."

and added the remark "rv striver maybe youre not such a shia expert after all". I would like to see some source that proves that all shia and all Secular scholars belive its questionable. Some secular scholars i could buy since zora also made some similar claim, and she usualy sources from secular books, but i have yet to find sources that any notable numbers of Shia regard it as false. Im goint go reveret him and exepect him to source his stands before revering me.

Oh, and thanks for the personal remark, i love those. --Striver 02:34, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Striver, the "story of the honey" comes from Sahih Bukhari. Can you please tell us what the Shiah view on Sahih Bukhari is? --Zeno of Elea 09:42, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Zeno, thats weak, and you know it. We all know that Shia belive Bukhari to be the most un-authetic collection around, followed only by Muslims collection. I mean, Bukhari ommiting Ghadire Khum is ... lol, it tells how biased he was. How one can omit the MOST authentic and widely reported event ever, no mater what kind of Muslim you are, without even hinting it happened, well... you get it.

As for you week implied conclusion, "its false since its in Bukhari", well, Badr is in Bukhari and i havent seen any Shia reject Badr.

Im not claiming that all muslim belive in the Bukhari version of surah 66, i just want some source before you claim as facts that all Shia belive it to be the non-honey version. --Striver 10:48, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not saying that Shiahs believe the non-honey version either. I'm saying that they believe in neither the story of the honey NOR the alternate story regarding Maria the Copt, which comes from Ibn Ishaq. I'll try to find the source where I read this. --Zeno of Elea 13:23, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

aisha fought her son in law?

the only war i can remember was the war of the camel, between her and ali... i dont see how he's her son in law if that's who it was referring to --GNU4Eva 03:30, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Fatima was Muhammad's daughter; Ali married Fatima; Ali was Muhammad's son-in-law. Aisha was Muhammad's wife, therefore Ali would have been her son-in-law too -- or at least her step-son-in-law.

If that's confusing you, change or drop it. I can see where the linguistic expedients of modern-day blended families might not make sense when you're talking about polygamy. Zora 03:35, 1 August 2005 (UTC) (who took her ex-mother-in-law shopping the other day.)

I thought that maybe what they were referring to but it does seem a bit confusing, as it seems to imply that Ali was Muhammad's son. Step-son in law seems redundant (don't step son and son in law mean the same thing?). I don't have a problem with it but I just thought it was a bit confusing. --GNU4Eva 03:46, 1 August 2005 (UTC) (as for the shopping, let's just say to each their own...)

Zeno, surely a more informative version is to be preferred

Zeno, you reverted to your version of the Maria note, and I can't see why. Is it just that you like the look of your own prose? I don't see why we can't explain the alternate theory in the Aisha article and repeat the explanation in the Maria article. I can see asking users to click to another article when the explanation would be too long -- such as dealing with the whole succession to Muhammad problem -- but one para is not too much to add. Zora 02:05, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Oho, I just looked at the Maria article and I can see why you want people to go there. You've turned it into a subtly malicious anti-Muhammad screed. Some NPOVing will be necessary there, I think. Zora 02:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry

Shouldent have done that revert.

--Striver 21:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Stevertigo's edits

Stevertigo spent a lot of time giving the Muslim apologetic gloss, as well as removing the earlier note re the use of Ayesha as a woman's name. I removed the gloss, and here's why:

This article has been a hotly contested area for years. It is the scene of ugly clashes between anti-Muslim bigots (Muhammad was a pedophile, nyah nyah!) and pious Muslims (nothing that makes Muhammad look even remotely human or fallible can be included). Not to mention the Shi'a versus Sunni wars.

After a great deal of editing work, we had arrived at what seemed to be a stable NPOV version, one that all sides could accept. Stevertigo's edits threatened to return us to that state of all-out war. I don't feel that they added any information -- they just insisted on the Muslim version of Aisha's history.

Stevertigo, I know that you think you're defending Islam with your edits, but your efforts would just plunge us back into the wars and lead to the posting of more scurrilous interpretations of Muhammad's behavior. Please, unless you have extra information to add (which I don't think is possible, since we've covered the earliest sources), let this version be. Zora 07:04, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Your above characterization of my edits carries a number of improper assumptions - I have already responded on your talk page about the basic nature of the edit itself, and my reasons for reverting it. For the record I have now also explained my second revert at User talk:Zora. -St|eve 16:59, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

What gives? You seem to be playing tit for tat. I reverted your edits, so you'll revert mine, nyah nyah nyah. This time, rather than reverting your edits, I reworked them -- and also, noticing a problem, corrected the format of some references and added a missing page number. But you reverted that undeniably useful edit, among others. Zora 23:28, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Faithfreedom.org link

Hello, I must be the user you're talking about. Ali Sina happens to be a scholar, like it or not. He quotes the Hadith and the Quran and explains why he believes Mohammad was a pedophile. I don't see why the reference should be taken out --Tabari states that Mohammad married Aisha when Aisha was six years old. Yes, six years old. This makes Aisha a little girl, hence the claim that Mohammad was a pedophile. Taking out the reference to Faith Freedom would violate Wikipedia's policy of neutrality, since pro-Islamic views are also featured heavily on this page. Tauphon 17:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

A new editor just added a link to a page on the Faithfreedom.org website that accuses Muhammad of being a pedophile. I was going to delete this as malicious slander and then I thought -- it's perhaps a good idea for readers to know just what sort of venom is being spread on this matter. In fact, the page is so transparently prejudiced that I don't think it has the effect it wants to have.

I'd like to hear what other editors have to say on this matter. I hope that people can consider it from the freedom of speech/access to information angle and not the "we must not disrespect the prophet" angle. Zora 23:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Ali Sina has just been banned from wikipedia, and his hate site will not be tolerated on any page. Yuber^(talk) 00:02, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

But his page is still there, and I don't recall any ruling saying that faithfreedom.org links were not allowed. Could you explain further? Zora 02:25, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Ali Sina's website expresses one out of many different types of views on the subject of Islam which are presented in Wikipedia. Unlike what Yuber seems to think , Wikipedia does not resolve around what he would like the world to be.--CltFn 04:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

He is neither banned, neither crazy, neither good, nor bad. We care about notability. Cheers -- Szvest 04:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

Ali Sina is quite notable , a published author and a recognized source of dissident views on Islam and he gets quite a lot of hits on Google too.--CltFn 04:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe that notabilty is a relative term. In order to be fair, Ali Sina is not notable enough to be quoted in Wikipedia. You've got plenty of notable writers, journalists, scholars, experts that can be found at Critics of Islam's Category. 99% of people belonging to that category are notable enough to be quoted in these kind of articles. Someone who runs a website from behind the curtains doesn't merit to be referenced in Wikipedia. Cheers -- Szvest 05:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

Ali Sina had a username? Which was it? When was it banned?

My view is that FFI is not notable and definitely not scholarly. The problem I have is that some of the other sources here aren't either. So, if we are going to cite cheap Islamic sites we can use FFI. Once we rise out of the gutter we can scrap both of those. (Note: If the cite is being linked to for a notable book that's another matter... but remember; choose the least partisan site when linking to an online book. We don't link FFI over Gutenberg). gren グレン 05:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

well that is one way of looking at it gren, though I just don't see what people object to with Ali Sina ,he is just an apostate encouraging Muslims to leave Islam by presenting them with an alternate view of Islam which they may not have been presented before. He does his best to provide factual and accurate information and testimonies from ex-muslims.Whats wrong with that? And whats wrong with saying what you think about anything that exists in the world? If the information from the site is accurate and verifiable then it should have equal ranking as any other source on Wikipedia.--CltFn 06:13, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

CltFn, you have to understand that this is not a political forum or podium to make people more notable. There are guidelines in Wikipedia. We don't accept controversial websites, blogs and forums like this one or the ones belonging to Al-Qaeda, ETA, etc... to have predominant referencing in Wikipedia for controversial religion-related articles. People are entitled to exercise free speech but we mainly here are guardians of this free speech against hate speech. As explained above, notable critics of Islam or Paganism are accepted. His bio intro does not help this case as it says nothing if you compare it with respected and notable critics. Just a note; there are plenty of similar rants from other opponent websites. We do not accept to participate on that battle between people who pretend to advice others. Cheers -- Szvest 06:30, 28 December 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

You seem so eager to label Ali Sina's website Faith Freedom Org as hate speech , but I have not found that to be the case at all on the contrary I see Ali Sina taking a courageous stand for decency and humanity and against hatred and barbarism through his site and work. As a matter of fact perhaps you could point out something on the site that you would classify as hate speech. I see blunt criticisms, documentation and depictions of brutal realities, discussions , graphic photos and videos , testimonials but I do not see hate speech or racism. --CltFn 06:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

There's no need to go back again to list all what is considered as hate speech and post them here again. Please refer to Ali Sina and Talk:Ali Sina for details. Apart from this point, the guy is no scholar, no expert, no journalist, no professor, anonymous -in contrast with most of critics of Islam-. He says As an engineer, I do have much more interest in current practical issues rather than the historical. Please, save us some time CltFn. As I said even before, I don't care who he is as long as he is notable enough, quoted by mass media before wikipedia, etc... Cheers -- Szvest 07:19, 28 December 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

Karl, I assume that you understand very well that when discussing Ali's notability, we subsequently discuss his website. Cheers -- Szvest 18:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

The article that we have an external link to is written by Ali Sina but it's subject is not ALi Sina, so how notable he is or not, is not very interesting in this case. The article is about the Aisha/Muhammed pedophilia controversy which is obviously very well known, and of course worth mentioning in this article. I don't see any reason why there should be any resistance to having a link to an article that clarify and provide information to our readers, about one of the POVs that exist regarding this issue? Other articles re this issue can of course be added to add some balance and provide information about other POVs re this, however I don't see any reason to remove the external link. -- Karl Meier 21:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, Karl. When you say that it is written by him than we have to go back to discuss his notability! Regarding the question about the resistance, I must say "why not insert a reference to a more acceptable and notable authour/website"? I am totally with a balance but we should agree about issues like notability (is he or his site usually quoted or referenced in the mass media or even in the specialist media?). As I said above, there are plenty of well notable critics of Islam. Ali is no different than Israel Shamir and his website. I don't see Shamir being referenced in articles because as it is common sense. Cheers -- Szvest 21:47, 28 December 2005 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

I would never use his site. Completely ignoring the fact that I'm a Muslim, he insults and lies a LOT. Every Muslim on the site he calls a "cult member" along with other numerous insults to Islam, the Prophet Muhammad (as), and the Muslim.

He lies, also. For example, he says that in an authentic Hadith there is a creation story that Muhammad (as) told. That Hadith doesn't exist! It was completely made up by Sina but he tried to pass it off as authentic and as if it existed. He also has numerous other lies.

It's one thing to be a "scholar" who is critical of Islam. It's another thing to lie about what you're supposedly a "scholar" of. Armyrifle 14:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Armyrifle, can you please substantiate your attacks against Ali Sina? Nevertheless, Ali Sina is simply the owner of FFI. There are plenty of other dissident voices in FFI that criticise Islam from every point of view you may imagine. However, Mohammad's pedophilia is something of a consensus there, as well as other websites and organisations that also criticise Islam, aka the Religion of Peace.

Since I am ex-Muslim myself and that Mohammad's pedophilia was the main reason I left Islam, and since apostates have a right to be represented in Wikipedia alongside with the Muslims, I do not see why the Faith Freedom link is deleted all the time.

Besides, I wonder why all the instances where Mohammad's pedophilia was mentioned in the article have been taken out. Because there are people who think Mohammad was a pedophile, i.e. he married a six-years old child, and because Wikipedia is completely NEUTRAL, at least the phenomenon that some people think Mohammad was a pedophile HAS TO BE MENTIONED in this article.

Is that clear? Tauphon 08:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Direct/indirect evidence/claim of older age

Guys! For everybody who is into reverting. Nobody from both sides is giving us in detail the reason(s) why she/he is reverting. Please discuss here to sort that out. I have no knowledge about that particular issue but I see the article is being unstable because of simple things. Please, discuss the issue here. Cheers -- Szvest 17:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

My revert

I have reverted to the version before MSK's last edit, because he violated 3RR and has been blocked. That doesn't mean I can vouch for its accuracy or that I agree with its contents. My only concern was to ensure MSK gains no advantage from the violation, so the regular editors should feel free to retain or delete the edit as you see fit. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

And Mr Data has been blocked as a sockpuppet account. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

With no proof nor check at all I bet, because if you actually DID check you would find out they weren't me: Just two internet friends. All I was doing was similar to what Yuber and your friends have been doing, getting friends to help when people are reverting: Yuber has been deliberetely starting revert wars and you have been abusing your admin privileges to support him and F in this.

I notice both are still banned, why didn't you even try talking to them or actually CHECKING?

Obviously you're biased in this matter and this is just yet another case of SlimVirgin abusing her admin privileges for revert wars her or her Wiki-clique is involved in.. --Mistress Selina Kyle ^{(Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉)} 03:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

What the!!!!!!

An anon date crusader changed CE to AD. I changed it back. At which MSK arrives and reverts to an extremely old "Muhammad was a pedophile" version while accusing ME of reverting and using misleading edit summaries. Someone is confused and it isn't me. Zora 03:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid that changing CE to AD is no cultural crusade but simply an attempt at accuracy. The modern calander used in most of the world today is divided in BC and AD. Simple fact and nothing to do with crusading. Oh by the way I am Muslim and resent the inference that I am some sort of crusader.

I think we are trying to use (B)CE dating in this non-Christian article the way we use Commonwealth English in articles about British people. That's how I rationalise it. --King of All the Franks 06:33, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Fine but this is still inaccurate. Furthermore for a consistance approach do you would have to make attempts to remove all references to the Islamic calander. ie has AH been changed to some equally meaningless thing? To change the islamic calander is wrong. But so is to change the Christian one.

I honestly don't know how much we are using the Islamic calendar in the article. The Common Era calendar is, I think, the most neutral we can get in this controversial subject. --King of All the Franks 06:42, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Sir/Madam this has nothing to do with neutrality but to do with accuracy. What you are stating is simply incorrect and artificial. The dating from the Islamic calander is extensively used in other articles on Islamic history...and may I say entirely appropiately. Had the dating in this article been based on the islamic calander I would have no argument. However if you use the Christian calander, you have to use the appropiate abbreviations if you claim accuracy

User:Yuber has noted that having no abbreviations is better. That works for me. --King of All the Franks 06:53, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this an entirely reasonable solution to this problem. I will change the rest of the dates in accordance with this

Thank you for your patience. --King of All the Franks 07:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

We've had CE there for ages -- I put it there when I extensively rewrote the article a year and a half ago, something like that. We have CE in numerous articles throughout Wikipedia. We've had an Arbcom case rebuking a date crusader, and an era ruling to the effect that editing an article JUST to change the date notation is wrong. I don't see why we have to remove the notation for someone who's breaking rules just with his date crusading. Zora 09:12, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I've noted the above discussion with interest. I am not sure what date crusading is. But I do agree with the chap who has pointed out the inconsistancy of having references to the Islamic calender (I have to admit that I too am a Muslim) and artifically removing all references to the Christian Calander. Simpily because this error has been perpetuated in the past does to signify validity. Compromise is important. And it would seem that if CE creates as much annoyance as AD then we should remove both. Inshallah.

Engagment

If I am correct , Aisha was ingaged to somebody else befor her ingagment to Muhammad . Am I right or wrong . F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 20:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Yup, Jubair. It's in the article. Zora 20:53, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

2006

Life expectancy

Marriages occured much earlier at that time because the life expectancy almost 1500 years ago was less than half of that today [[8]]. What's wrong with that statement? The sentence before says that early marriages were common at that time & the life expectancy is probably the reason for that. I don't understand what you mean by the shorter on European Demographics. Rajab 10:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Life expectancy is an average, and infant deaths pull the average way down. People who survived to age one or two lived longer than 25, I believe. The Wikipedia article you reference explains that. Furthermore, life expectancy has no necessary connection to age at marriage. Different societies have had different marriage strategies. In societies with early marriage, early marriage has meant high fertility rates. When resources are limited, that can lead societies to resort to abortion (Tokugawa Japan) or infanticide (ancient Hawai'i, pre-Islamic Arabia) in order to keep the population in line with available resources. It can also result in highly pronounced demographic cycles: explosive population growth, succeeded by civil war and epidemics, succeeded by explosive population growth. Various social scientists have claimed that European society got out of that "trap" by adopting a "European family system" characterized by the oldest son inheriting a whole farm or firm (keeping productive assets together), late marriage, and younger sons and extraneous daughters being sent away as servants, craftsmen, or monks and nuns. I thought that it was Edward Shorter who popularized these ideas, but I was wrong -- he writes on the "modern" family system. Other authors wrote about earlier marriage patterns. See [9] and [10].

You seem to be assuming that most people died by the time they were 25, therefore people had to marry early in order to keep up population levels. This is simply NOT true. The problem for pre-industrial societies was curbing population growth, not enhancing it. You are presenting an original argument that is not supported by what we know of demography. Zora 21:08, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

So you are saying that people lived to the same age 1500 years ago as we live today? This is simply NOT true. Just look at peoples who live in primitive societies today - in these countries someone who's 40 is really elderly. On the other hand the number of people who live to age 100 or older increases every decade!

For this reason I suggest the following compromise: [... early marriages were common] One reason for this is that life expectancy almost 1500 years ago was much less than today [[11]].

What do you think? Rajab 11:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Why should I compromise? The WP way is to give all sides of an issue -- when the sides are notable. Your "explanation" is your original theory; it is not supported by any demographer. Lower life expectancies, yes -- but this does NOT translate directly into lower age at marriage. Your theory is not notable, so far as I can tell. Come back with cites from reputable sources and then we'll add your theory.

What's relevant is "age at marriage". This has tended to be fairly low in many pre-modern societies, with women married off as soon as they were pubescent. But not all societies! It varies. However, in no societies that I know is sex with pre-pubescent females approved. Nine is pre-pubescent, very much so. Puberty actually comes later to undernourished women, not earlier. (See Aisha's account of the necklace for a comment on how little she weighed, and how thin women were in those days.) That's why I think, personally, that Aisha was bragging and exaggerating her youth at marriage. But that's just MY theory. Zora 11:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Anon's edits

Anon, I removed the last part of your edits re Aisha's age at marriage. You can't argue that "Muhammad would not have done anything nasty", as that assumes that Muhammad is perfect. There are many non-Muslims who would not accept that argument; it does not belong in a secular encyclopedia. The argument that marriage to a pre-pubescent child would have been shocking is unreferenced, and would be hard to demonstrate. We know very little, really, about marriage customs in pre-Islamic Arabia, though there is much speculation.

If you want to research an article on Pre-Islamic Arabian society, that would be wonderful. But until we have something like that, we can't really make statements about what was or wasn't accepted. Zora 23:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Anon, I moved your edits re Urwa to the "arguments for greater age" category, which is where they belong. Also, I reversed your change of heading from "consummation" to "marriage". All accounts say that the marriage/betrothal ceremony preceded the actual consummation of the marriage by several years. It's the "consummation" part of this that bothers critics. I think the article is inconsistent in this regard and needs a cleanup edit to make sure that we distinguish carefully between marriage and consummation. Zora 05:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Zora, please don't remove the extra piece of information I added concerning Urwa. It is an important piece and it took quite a while to research. Ibn Abbas is a renowned and trustworthy figure, and the work Tazeeb al Tazeeb is very recognized as well. And I agree with Anon that the Qur'an would not allow child marriages and that that piece of information is NOT AT ALL insignificant! And whether Muslim or not, nobody would deny that Muhammad acted according the the Qur'an. Had he not, that would have been a thing of great controversy among Muslims and an easy point of criticism for his opponents! Many tried to include that but you always deleted it!

Where in the Qur'an does it say that child marriages are not allowed? I don't think you can come up with a cite. I'm sorry, but you can't insert arguments to the effect that Muhammad would do nothing wrong as if they were the opinions of Wikipedia. Zora 01:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

And yes, the article needs clean up. I am not a good writer so I just added the infos in the hope someone else would rewrite without removing information.

Why trash Ibn Ishaq here?

In this case, Ibn Ishaq can be used to prove that Aisha was older than nine, and avert a scandalous interpretation of Muhammad's behavior. What does it profit a Muslim to criticize him here? Are you trying to argue that Aisha was indeed nine years old?

If there are any questions about Ibn Ishaq, his article is the place to discuss it. Zora 06:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not the one who introduced Ibn Ishaq to this article. I merely noting that the article claims Ibn Ishaq is "convincing", and am noting what the implications of that are. If Ibn Ishaq were not being used as a source, then there is no need to note the limitations of using that source. But he is being used as a source here, and readers should be fully informed. I am not trying to argue Aisha is any particular age. I am not here to push a POV. I am here to see that Wiki readers have the information they need to critically assess the different sources about Aisha.Bdell555 06:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not all sure that you have accept or reject Ibn Ishaq in toto. He was, after all, collecting stories of things that happened many years ago, and while he might have been as honest as he could in reporting what he heard, those giving him information might have been deluded. In some cases, Ibn Ishaq gives two contradictory accounts of something and says, "But Allah alone knows the truth". I don't think that any historians accept him uncritically. Zora 07:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Of course. But one can't just cite him as an authoritative source when convenient and reject him when it is not convenient. That is why the reader needs to be provided with links to other works by this source so that the reader can further research the source. As it stands now, you are trying to keep the reader in the dark about Ibn Ishaq in order to push the Aisha was post-puberty theory. We are not here to push any particular theory. We are here to provide readers with facts and to direct them to further research areas. This is not your private propaganda vehicle and neither is it mine.Bdell555 07:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Sources

This may be an unpopular proposal, but I think we should remove everything which is not sourced from this article. I had a difficult time tracking down many of the facts, but its probably undesirable to mark every other sentence with {{fact}}. These generic references like "according to some hadiths" are especially troubling. Unless they cite a specific one it seems like any level of original research or non-sense can be justified. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 07:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

For example, I removed:

Aisha has become known for having at the side of Muhammad in the battle of Badr (see for example hadiths by Muslim) as well as in the battle of Uhud (see e.g. hadiths by Bukhari). Bukhari also reports (Kitâb al-maghâzî, Bâb Ghazawat al-Khandaq wa-hiya l-Ahzâb) that the Prophet did not allow 14 year olds to participate but allowed them to join on their 15th birthday. Common sense would also forbid that the Prophet Muhammad would take children into his fighting ranks which would only be a hindrance not to mention that this would clearly be against the spirit of Islam.

This seems like the definition of original research. So what if Muhammad didn't let 14 year olds join the army? That says nothing about Aisha's age. Clearly, she would be a special case. The rest of it is even worse. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 07:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I pulled these out, put feel free to put them back in if you can back them up with cites.

• Evidence that Aisha was much older comes from many sources, which thus reinforce each other. But all hadith supporting an early age at marriage and consummation can be traced to Urwa (also known as Abu Hisham) and date back to the period after he migrated to Iraq at the age of 71. There are no such hadith collected while he still resided in Medina. Ibn Abbas and others (see Tazeeb al Tazeeb) consider Urwa's hadith from Iraq to be weak; his memory is presumed to have weakened as he aged.

I will put the above back into the text. This is the most crucial information. Just counting hadith does not give any information. A citation is not needed. All the hadith arguing for a young age are listed. If you have doubts, go and look yourself if you find one without Urwa in the chain of narration. It's not that many. You can do that!

• Some scholars say that the hadith collectors Bukhari and Muslim applied less stringent standards to hadith relating to history than they did to hadith relating directly to prayer and family law. Hence a historical tradition included in Bukhari or Muslim cannot be presumed to be "strong".

savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 07:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah, a voice of reason. Those lists of references were pasted into the article by editors long since gone, and I just haven't had the energy to try to track down every reference and replace it with a properly cited one. We need bibliographic information and page numbers. I don't have the relevant volumes of Tabari; all I have is Ibn Ishaq and some volumes (in dicey translations) of Ibn Sa'd. I don't quite trust the translations in the MSA hadith library either, but at least they're searchable. Most of the hadith, if they're from Muslim and Bukhari, can be found.

Just what I need, an impetus to buckle down to Arabic again. I'd have everything we needed if I could just read Arabic.

Do you have some energy to do research? I'd hate to just wipe everything and not replace some of it. Zora 07:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not wiped out. It'll be here on the talk page until someone can verify out. I was unable to and suspect that its original research, usercruft rather than from scholarly sources. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I also removed this:

* According to Ibn Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's (d. 768) biography of Prophet Muhammad, the Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, Aisha accepted Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab. If true, then Aisha accepted Islam during the first few years of Islam. She could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she got married.

I see how the first part is referenced. But the third sentence does not in any way follow from the first two. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey -- I pored over my copy of Ibn Ishaq to confirm that. Muhammad started preaching publicly in 613, but there were three years before that in which he gathered converts, including Abu Bakr. Aisha is listed as one of the earliest converts. If she was old enough to walk and talk, she must have been three or four when she accepted Islam -- or older. There are nine years between 613 and 622, so 9+3 is at least twelve, with the likelihood that she was older.

You know that I'm not out to defend Muhammad at all costs -- this really does seem likely to me.

As for the questions re Urwa, that you wanted to sideline -- there's an extended discussion in Watt's Muhammad at Mecca re Urwa's reliability. I think that this has been a long-standing question even for Muslim scholars, though I'd have to be versed in hadith to give cites. Zora 03:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Zora, thanks for trying to track down sources for this. However, the part of that which is sourced is true, but the part about that fact having an impact of Aisha's age is entirely speculative. The way it is in the article now makes it seem like that source makes a claim about Aisha's age when it does not. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 22:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the following paragraphs from the "young age controversy" section. They are replete with POVs and unsourced material. The most prominent of which is the paragraph about Sunni principles of Shari'a being threatened if we assume Aisha was incorrect regarding her age. I would say most Sunni muslims, and scholars, would find this hard to believe. Feel free to reinsert the paragraphs with sources and reword it so that it doesn't represent a deduction or a POV.

However, other Muslim scholars point to other traditions that conflict with those attributed to Aisha in this matter. If the other traditions are right, this would imply that Aisha was either confused in her dating, was exaggerating her youth at marriage, or that her stories (which were not written down until more than 100 years after her death) had been garbled in transmission. If we believe traditions that say she was post-pubescent when married, then these other traditions, from Ibn Ishaq and Tabari and others, seem much more convincing.

From the viewpoint of the Islamic clergy, the ulema, this explanation, while relieving them of one difficulty, poses another. The "late marriage" argument values the biographical and historical literature, the sira, over the canonical hadith, or oral traditions accepted by the ulema. However, anything that threatens the value of the hadith, and especially hadith narrated by Aisha, threatens the whole elaborate structure of Islamic law, or sharia. The Shi'a version of shari'a is less at risk in this one instance, as the Shi'a deprecate anything sourced to Aisha.

Liberal Muslims do not see any problem with saving Muhammad's character at the expense of shari'a. Conservative Muslims, and the ulema, tend to embrace the "early puberty" theories.

Ahmedayad 06:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

72.129.170.249

This IP keeps readding things without adding sources. As well, he/she also keeps changing the section title without explanation. This one thing is particularly heinous: the part about "it is unanimously agreed...". That is so clearly not the case and does not belong in the article. I don't want to revert more than twice, but other users should really step in and revert this anon. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 22:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added the totally disputed tag to the article. If the disputed sections are going to remain in the article, the tag will have to remaina s well. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

they should revert me for what? You deleted parts of the article. You claimed that there was no source. I added the source, but despite that, you again deleted it. Why? If you have a problem with something, fix it instead of deleting stuff 72.129.170.249 01:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, really? Exactly where is the source for: "It is unanimously agreed that Aisha had reached the age of puberty at her marriage" or the last two bullet points in the "Evidence Aisha was much older than 9 section? savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

You deleted the part about Ibn Hisham even after I added the exact reference. Even Muslims who believe that Aisha was 9, believe that she was reached the age of puberty. That is unanimously accepted by all Muslims -- regardless whether they accept Bukhari hadith or not. 72.129.170.249

Tag would remain here why? Are you some kind of bully here who when he doesn't get his say to delete everything he wants, sticks the disputed tag to the artice? I will wait for your explanation before removing the tag 72.129.170.249 01:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Look if the article contains unsourced and POV original research I have to insist on the dispute tag. I'm not trying to be a bully, but I just don't have the time to revert anonymous users who insist on reinserting biased material. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:40, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is POV? The article quotes opinion of Muslims on this issue (whether Muslims are wrong or right is irrelevant). All Muslims (at least those who believe in Islam) believe the marriage was consummated when Aisha reached puberty (even Muslims who believe she was 9 believe that). So what exactly are you complaining about? 72.129.170.249 02:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Your attempt to define people who do not believe Aisha reached puberty at the time of her marriage to Muhammad as non-Muslims is POV and unsourced. The article itself provides several examples of people who believe the opposite. The article should not just be written from a Muslim point of view, but from a universal point of view. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 08:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually your last edit is a major improvement, so I won't readd the tag. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 08:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Spelling out numbers

The Chicago Manual of Style, which is the standard reference for those copyediting academic works, wants all numbers below 100 to be spelled out rather than given as Arabic numerals. The text simply looks better.

As for claims that Aisha was the third wife of twelve -- both those numbers are disputed. Don't state those numbers as facts. Zora 17:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

About the previous engagement

To Zora, you removed the section I added about the previous engagement right after my addition. I don't check my edits religiously for reverts so I have just came to notice. You mention that it is in a bad place and is repeated, both are not correct. Including the first engagement in the section about the "young age controversy" lends support to the ideaa that her engagement to the prophet (PBUH) was not unique at that time regardless of her age (even if we accept she was young by our standards, the fact that she was already engaged tells us it was not strange for her to be so). I agree the section I had was long, instead I have added the following to the "young age" section: "regardless of her age at the time, Aisha was already engaged to another man before Muhammad" Ahmedayad 06:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Look, you're brand new to Wikipedia, you're editing a controversial topic, and your edits seem to be argumentation unsupported by any references. I suggest that many of the points you are trying to raise are covered in OTHER parts of the article.

My age on Wikipedia is irrelevant. My additions to this topic was a line that referenced another section in the same article. I deleted three paragraphs for the exact reason I am accused of here - being without reference. I can hardly see how you can have the above statement. I am trying to follow some good will as per the Wiki's mission and spirit by having a dialogue without resorting to reverts, I would appreciate reciprocity. Ahmedayad 00:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be arguing that she was 9 years old but that this was not bad, because she was post-pubescent. That should go in the FOR an early age section, if anywhere.

My argument is that in light of the previous engagement incident, age is irrelevant (it is neither FOR nor AGAINST her being 9 at the time). I am personally inclined to think that she was older, but my personal beliefs are also irrelevant. Ahmedayad 00:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm considering moving the controversy OUT of the Aisha article and setting up a new article for it. The new article may be re-organized. But I don't want to do this by myself, I need to consult other editors. So hold on a bit, OK? Zora 00:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

It strikes me that lists of evidence 'for' and 'against' a proposition are very poor form for an encyclopedia. I would rather that whole section be rethought and rewritten, but think a new article would be an acceptable compromise if others don't agree with me.

A better style would be to note chief proponents (or schools of thought) on either side of the argument and summarise the evidence that they use to reach their position (and add links to the actual evidence). Ashmoo 02:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Zmmz's edits

Zmmz, your edits turned straightforward prose into ungrammatical muddles. Furthermore, I don't think anyone disputes the story of the lost necklace except those scholars, like Patricia Crone, who think that all the hadith and tafsir are suspect. Perhaps a reference to Historiography of early Islam] would be in order. However, it's not necessary to NPOV statements that no one is disputing. None of the doubting scholars have even touched on the story of the necklace.

The article does need a springclean and rewrite, but I have to finish some RL work (line editing a Hawaiian history) before I can get to it. Zora 21:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Article needs to be written in a neutral language

Hi, please do not erase NPOV language used in the article, such that the age of the prophet`s wife is nowhere mentioned or hinted here. The reader needs to have some indication of the wife’s age. We must write articles in neutral language, and not solely rely on lopsided commentary. Please review Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and the Wiki manual of writing policies. Zmmz 22:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

If you want to do something useful, how about sourcing all the hadith cited to exact numbers and URLs at the MSA hadith database [12]. Cites of Arabic editions are basically useless. They were copied from an older article, long ago, and haven't been updated. Zora 22:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I`m sorry, If you want to do something useful is incivil, and please assume good faith. The hadith is respected, yet, it is not the sole scholarly work, specially, since there is a legitimate controversy. As such, the article needs to be written in a neutral language.Zmmz 22:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Revised intro

I asked other editors if they wanted to split the marriage age controversy off into another article, and no one wanted to do so. Recently there's been some back-and-forth about introducing the controversy in the birthdate section.

Usually the intro para is where we state why someone is notable. So I took the controversy out of the birthdate, and moved it right up to the top, along with the Shi'a critique. Now no one can say that we're hiding anything. Look OK to other editors? Zora 01:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea to get it out of the way at the beginning. It's not something to hide and it is a big issue with her. (I thought the wording could be tweaked but I didn't come up with anything better). I would, however add a sentence about her from a fans... to many Sunnis she was a favorite wife and that's one reason she's notable. Also, she is used by many Islamic modernists and feminists as an example of a very assertive Muslim woman from the beginning in an attempt to prove that Islam isn't misogynistic. Most intros are supposed to be short and I think we can include those two things making it a quick overview that's not longer than the intro guidelines.

Hmm, when it comes to the part about feminists and modernists I really should get out my Wadud book and some of the other stuff that mentions her and actually add that to the article. gren グレン 01:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan. Something that was overlooked before and would definitely add to the article. Zora 01:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

We can't state that she was a child bride

Mani, we can't state in the intro that she was a child bride when there is controversy about her age. If you look at the section below, you see that there is a wide range of estimates of her age. WP doesn't state as fact matters that are in dispute; we just give all sides.

I have a feeling that my reversion is going to immediately be trumpeted in the Aucaman arbitration case as proof that I'm a unregenerate edit warrior, who should be banned from WP. I had to think for a moment as to whether or not I'd revert what I guessed was a deliberately provocative edit. Then I figured that if I could be intimidated into NOT doing something that I thought was fair, I would be a coward. So, I did it.

I would, however, appreciate some statements of support from other editors here if the poop hits the rotating blade. Zora 02:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree Zora. Stating it in the intro is poor form. Especially since the definition of the 'child bride' itself is debatable. Better to just report that there is controversy about her age when married in the intro and detail it later in the article. Ashmoo 02:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Since the definition of 'child bride' is debatable, lets just go with 'young bride'. Whatever her age, she was young, that's what all the sources say. --ManiF 02:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

ManiF, I don't understand what your bit adds to the sentence. It already mentions '9-years-at-marriage'. Your phrase seems superfluous. What do you think is missing from Zora's versions? Is it just the link? Ashmoo 02:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Mani's change doesn't make sense. Being a young bride is not all controversial. The link is to a site that claims that Muhammad fondled children. It belongs in the section on the controversy, not highlighted in the intro. It's not playing fair to try to put your POV in the intro and shut out other POVs. We say that there's a controversy, and what it's about -- that's enough. Zora 02:44, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted ManiF's changes because, as far as I can see, there has been no consensus reached to add "young bride" to the intro. The fact that she was young, as Zora point out, is not controversial at all. In fact, young is very POV. There are many people married young. The assertion that she was married at 9 is already mentioned in the introduction. Pepsidrinka 03:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I’m sorry to see there is an edit-war here, and I apologize if Muslims are offended, in any way; I’m being sincere. Nevertheless, with all due respect, how can you say Aisha`s age was of no controversy? It is perhaps one the most well argued, and notorious hypothesis, backed with a lot of academic views, from Arabic books itself, in the religion Islam. I read this article when I joined Wiki anew in Feb/06, and I had no idea about this issue; yet, the article had not mentioned anything. I read a book by accident mentioning the enormity of this issue two weeks ago, then came back and added [one] sentence, stating she may have been a child at marriage, so at least the reader would have an idea about what is going-on. The reader deserves to know that. Am I incorrect? I know it is a sensitive issue to Muslims, but should that be a reason from excluding, or burying this somewhere in a completely different article? Zmmz 03:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Have you looked at the current article? It does state that the age is controversial. Ashmoo 03:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

After, I breathed life into the issue, yes, now, it does. Good luck guys, and try to get along. ThanksZmmz 03:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Critics of Islam argue that marriage to a young girl reflects badly on Muhammad. The controversy is covered below.

Does this line need to be there? It already says she is a controversial figure, and obviously "critics of Islam" are going to pick up on anything controversial they can find.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's unpacking it for those whom "9 year old bride" isn't enough explanation of controversy. Nor is it clear that critics are going to pick up anything controversial. I can think of things that would be ammunition that they haven't picked up :) But it's quite possible that the first sentence you quoted could be improved. Do you have any suggestions? Zora 19:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The three-revert rule

User:210.211.233.171/User:210.211.234.85, you have violated the three-revert rule.Timothy Usher 11:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Determined anon

Anon, there are two things wrong with the version you like. One, if you want the controversy highlighted, then having it at the top is even more salient than having it in the second para. Two, that link accuses Muhammad of pedophilia. Putting it at the top, by itself, without any link to a competing viewpoint, gives it an unfair advantage. You're trying to use this article as a soapbox.

I could let you revert one more time and get banned, but I'll try to play nice: you've reverted three times and if you do it again, you'll get blocked. So don't.

Ashmoo suggested reorganizing the article and I think he's right. So sometime this weekend (after I finish the freelance editing work I'm doing), I'll try to reorganize the article so that the controversy represents all THREE sides of the argument, that is,

• Aisha was nine, because hadith don't lie, but she was pubescent. This is the predominant traditional Muslim POV, I think.

• Aisha was nine, she was pre-pubescent, and Muhammad was a pedophile. This is a common anti-Muslim view.

• Aisha was older than nine, as proved by other documents, such as sira. The hadith, in this case, can't be trusted. This view seems to be held by liberal Muslims, and possibly a few non-Muslims (though most non-Muslims wouldn't care one way or the other).

The link you want to insert would go in the second group.

Other editors, does this make sense? If you guys like it, you can start the re-org yourselves. Fine by me if I have less work to do. Zora 11:33, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Zora, the edit summaries, the account histories and the edits themselves make it clear that this is the same user. He/she is not going on revert four, but on revert five.Timothy Usher 11:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I was not aware of such rule so I will not edit here. Sorry to be of bother.

No problem. It took me a bit to learn/be informed of the rules as well.Timothy Usher 11:44, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Complete revision of age controversy section

I said I would do it and I did it. Took hours. Some of the sections still need citations, verifiable quotes, etc. I hope that this will satisfy all sides of the controversy. Zora 03:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Mother

Shi'a also regard her as a "mother of the belivers", we just dont put the same conotation to the title, the title it self is Qur'anic. --Striver 08:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

When was Aisha Married?

It seems that the date of the marriage is pretty vague. On the page, it mentions 622, but no exact date. Are historians sure that the marriage took place in 622 rather than 624?

Also, according to Tabari, Alisha was born in the Jahilyyah (before Islam), so she may have been born in 610 or earlier. So, one could argue that she was 14, or older, when she was married.

Aisha was at the Battle of Badr, I believe, and she was already married to Muhammad. All the sources I have say that she was married to Muhammad soon after the Hijra, in the first or second year afterwards; I'm still trying to find the references for that in sira (I have Ibn Ishaq, but I don't have all the relevant volumes of Tabari). As for her age -- half the article is devoted to that. There are many views. Zora 07:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

We dont need fact tags here but in the sub-section unless they it covers material not in the sub-section, this section should be just a summary to lead to the sub-section. --Tigeroo 12:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Shi'a view of Aisha

The article read that Shi'a dislike Aisha; an anon erased that, and wrote that since Ali forgave her, they forgave her. I wrote the "dislike" bit, based on several Shi'a websites. However, the anon may also be correct. There might well be a difference of opinion among Shi'a. I rewrote to say that and added a citation tag. We need some quotes, if any is up for getting them. If we can't get quotes, we should erase any unreferenced views. Zora 20:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

FairNBalanced's "rv"

For some reason, FairNBalanced seems to feel it's fair and balanced to respond to my edit summaries a. "rm or pedophile; one does not become a pedophile through actions", and b. "rm irrelevant reference to Ibn Ishaq being 100 years after Muhammad; Bukhari and Muslim were even later" with "rv". Rather than edit warring, I'd ask that he explain clearly the reasoning behind including the entirely unreferenced claim that "Critics insist [...] that Muhammad [...] became a [...] pedophile" in this article. (I think the "child molester" thing is ridiculous too — I expect most reasonable people would recognise this as an outrageous and provocative statement unsupported by mainstream opinion; wikipedia is not a venue for original research depicting the central figures of major world religions as criminal deviants — but the "became a pedophile" is just surreal.) We can deal with the well-poisoning of Ibn Ishaq later. — JEREMY 16:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Having given it some thought, I agree with you, Jeremy. While the "evidence" that Aisha's age was other than as directly stated by hadith is highly interpretive, having sexual relations with a child does not make one a pedophile, based on the most standard definitions of this term. There can be no doubt that Muhammad enjoyed sex with adult women, and there's no reason to believe that he preferred children.Timothy Usher 19:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Timothy. While I believe it's illogical to say that there "can be no doubt" about the personal details of a historical figure whose life is documented almost exclusively in first millennium religious texts, and that almost all "facts" about such people will necessarily be highly interpretive, I appreciate your thoughtful consideration of the issue. &#0151; JEREMY 04:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Further, "child molester" presumes that the child is unwilling. The western assumption that the child is by definition unwilling, and is thereby being molested rests more upon jurisprudence that a principled philosophical concept of free will. There's no indication that Aisha herself felt molested, except our own assumptions of how we think she must have/ought to have felt. In any case, it's unnecessary: even were a historical figure known primarily for sex with children, we could just state that and let readers judge for themselves.Timothy Usher 05:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. However, I suggest we deal with one description at a time, and right now, I think we should concentrate on the term "pedophile". If nobody provides reliable sources supporting it, we can remove it in a day or two, and that will provide a strong precedent to help prevent its unwarranted reintroduction in future. Then, we can discuss "child molester". &#0151; JEREMY 06:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact is is that Muhammad (as) never had sex with Aisha. Period. There is a doubtworthy Hadith (according to Shias) that he did, but this was when she was a fully grown adult. Armyrifle

Must delete unsourced material, weak sources and original argument

I propose we remove all the unsourced material and original argument here, on "both" sides. It's not quite nonsense, but it is unencyclopedic. Do we really need an "age controversy" section? Wikipedia isn't a debate club, and this article isn't (or shouldn't be) "Criticisms of Muhammad". I honestly, in good faith, believe that the correct way to deal with this is to simply and without prejudice state and attribute the ages to Hadith (as this is the only direct statement which doesn't require our original research or a link to an unreliable source to parse), include some of the apparent contradictions (e.g. Tabari) in a footnote, delete all the weak sources and just leave it at that.Timothy Usher 06:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Timothy, again I agree with you in principle but not in practice. Indeed, the "age controversy" is a figment of wikipedia's collective imagination, and is irrelevant in the context of everyday, mainstream and academic understandings of Aisha and Muhammad. However, this viewpoint unfairly dismisses certain editors with a good faith intent to add what they see as truthfulness to the article as cranks promoting fringe POV, which I don't think is fair to them. Instead, we need to discuss the changes thoroughly and explain carefully why they're being made, and whittle away at the egregious bias bit by bit. The establishment of clear and cogent explanations for our decisions regarding push-button populist issues such as this will improve the project in the long run. &#0151; JEREMY 11:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Amibidhrohi has already started eliminating material from unreliable sources. Let's get rid of them all and see what's left.Timothy Usher 23:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Jeremy, it seems a little one-sided to restore one poorly-sourced paragraph and not the other. I strongly believe that they both should go. Is there a reason you think one should stay, but not the other?Timothy Usher 04:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry; don't know what you're referring to here. I'm trying to untangle the wording and add correct cite tags, and all you seem to be interested in doing is deleting vast swathes of other people's work. &#0151; JEREMY 07:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

May I dare to opine that speaking of "well-cited" information when well sourced info is called for is interesting? However, I appreciate your penchant for "clearliness" and "cogency". Then again, you won't go far relying on abhorred "populist" sites as sunnipath.com, islam-is-the-only-solution.com, islamonline.net or islamweb.net. And how will you "whittle away at the egregious bias bit by bit" successfully, relying on third-grade online POVsters? Jeremias, thou speakest in tongues. --tickle me 06:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

(Gosh, what was I thinking with that last one?) His most recent edit aside, Jeremy's agreed to the principled solution of eliminating all poorly-sourced material. So let's await his response.Timothy Usher 06:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I have indeed. But you've just removed it all. Please self-revert your deletion of the whole "Marriage Controversy" section so I can keep working on it. &#0151; JEREMY 07:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

As stated below, I've already killed the "evidence for" section. The "evidence against" should be bundled into the "marriage" section somehow. The "he said, she said" organization is unencyclopedic. I left "evidence against" alone for now so you can do something with it without digging through the history.Timothy Usher 07:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the backing and forthing is poor writing. However, given how strongly some people seem to feel about this issue, I think the subject justifies it. I have restored the whole thing, and look forward to working with you (and others) to tidy, de-NPOV and cite this stuff. &#0151; JEREMY 08:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I've eliminated the pointless "evidence for" and bundles the refs into footnotes to the marriage section, where they belong. The "evidence against" section contains many elements of original argument, and I think we should look at how best to characterize what is actually there.Timothy Usher 07:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, "whatever site you were talking about, you didn't remove it"; yes, I did. The site was answeringinfidels.com, which you'd complained about four edit summaries previously. &#0151; JEREMY 07:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you’d meant to, but this diff only shows you re-adding things[13]. It's gone now, at least. Proselytizing nonsense must be removed.Timothy Usher 07:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That's right; I re-added what you'd deleted, minus the bit you complained about. &#0151; JEREMY 08:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I get it. Of course that doesn't show up in the diff.:)Timothy Usher 08:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Jeremy, you're talking about consensus to remove, but what about consensus to retain? Poorly-sourced material must go, regardless.Timothy Usher 08:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the whole thing to a sub-article to reflect its relative importance. I intend to continue to improve it there, however. &#0151; JEREMY 10:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is what you guys are looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam#Aisha

We have an exceptional editor who is working on the criticism of islam article; let me introduce him: MERZBOW! --Aminz 07:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Some good stuff, some bad. It's honest effort, at least. Let's move whatever's left after vetting over here.Timothy Usher 08:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I just did exactly that. &#0151; JEREMY 08:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Great. Thanks for not moving the irrelevant United Nations, Catholic Encylopedia and Medeival Castles (!) cites along with them. Now can we get rid of all the garbage? And who's Zahid Aziz? I haven't had a chance to check.Timothy Usher 08:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Opening sentence

Aisha ... was a wife of Muhammad, whom Muslims regard as the final prophet of Islam.

The sentence is a bit clumsy. It almost sounds like it's describing Aisha as being the final prophet. Should we just get rid of the part after Muhammad? Andjam 00:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree, it's not necessary here. Pecher ^Talk 09:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the internal link for Muhammad should be sufficient as to who he was. Also, the Aisha is controversial part seems to veer off in some areas. Perhaps we can add something concerning the figure herself in addition to the "controversy" portion of the intro. Maybe something about the significant number of hadeeths she recorded? Stoa 04:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

A reference to role of Muhammad in muslim community was needed, as it is important to contextualize the role of Aisha and her position as Umm ul Momineen in the muslim commmunity.

They are part of her historical identity, and easily slipping two words Islam and prophet infront of Muhammad acheives all of this without having a read veer off to another link to work it out. Remember readers can come via random processes and exploration of links they do not have to be either looking for the information specifically or even be aware of her in relation to the appropiate Muhammad. The objection being raised is NPOV, because NPOV applies to honorifics but not to descriptors. Linking the use of the word with Islam when used appropriately here can be modified to an NPOV tone enabling it to be used to describe and provide descriptive information that will allow the reader to easily align himself towards the correct frame of reference, without clunking the sentence as in this case. Removing all reference to the term prophet would be doing the wikipedia's purpose of dissemination of information a disservice and actually impedes the readibiliy and comprehension of articles, the Wiki policy acknowledges that and distinguishes between its use as a honorific and otherwise and using the term Islam or Muslim IS following the recommendation of the policy.--Tigeroo 12:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Everybody knows who Muhammad was, describing him at every stop is unnecessary. Pecher ^Talk 12:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily which Muhammad. You are allowed to use it once to appropriately align the reader, and it is only being used once where he is first mentioned and for valid reasons. Plus her position was and her title was important because of the of the role of muhammed, therefore it is required to be mentioned for context, and I have given more than one reason why it works here. I am not going to revert you but I have reported you for violation of 3RR.--Tigeroo 13:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad is linked and the link identifies him unambiguously. In addition, only Muhammad is usually referred to simply as "Muhammad"; other Muhammads are referrred to as "Muhammad" plus family name, nickname, kunyas, or whatever identifies them in the most unambiguous manner possible. Pecher ^Talk 13:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

This argument is why the page protection was initiated by Pecher. Pecher you are talking about what editors know not what readers will know. Play it safe especially it does not hurt but improves and enchance the amount of information dispensed by the article, as it stands it is not user friendly relevant details deserve mention at least cursory on this page and the link can be followed for greater information on many other things. Plus mentioning prophet ties in with the role/status of Aisha in the muslim community and is directly related to her title. It is even allowed by the wikipedia style manual on islam you love to use. It is not used as a honorific, I do understand why when properly contextualized and NPOV'ed according to Wiki guidlines you have an aversion to even stating that he is a prophet of Islam. Your argument only addresses one issue of the many reasons for its inclusion, and I have stated why it is not enough in this case.--Tigeroo 19:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you meant here. Which argument, what issue of what reasons for inclusion of what? The paragraph above reads as a mere collection of words. Pecher ^Talk 20:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Virgin Aisha?

Where does the belief that Aisha was a virgin come from? Did it arise in response to claims of pedophiles? 152.163.100.8 14:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

LEAD second sentence

What's up with this recent attempt to re-POV the opening? The age is controversial so we can't list it as fact; what is true is that critics of Muhammad think there's an issue, and I've tried a couple of different versions saying that only to have them reverted (along with other editors material, I might add) with nonsensical or misleading edit summaries. I'm not going to revert again, but I'd like to see the issue discussed here before my short, accurate version is deleted again. — JEREMY 06:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeremy, I am too tired for discussion. I hope the last version looks good to everyone. --Aminz 07:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I am too close to 3RR to revert it, but that additional argumentative and single-sourced material does not belong in the lead, as you should know, Aminz. &#0151; JEREMY 07:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I am tired now. Feel free to change it as you wish. I'll just make a little change . --Aminz 07:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The story

Sorry to put this at the top, but umm, in this article all we have is a quick summary and a lead to the other article which actual carries out this argument because it is big enough to handle it and keeps this page cleaner, all these edits and issues can be handled there. I suggest we cut and paste and move this argument to the relevant page (Aisha's age at marriage), which is not protected either and you can all have fun. Thats what that page is there for, to save this page those problems. It is enough here to mention the common view, the fact that there are other coins to the debate and link to the page which can handle the problem more adequately. Cheers.

--Tigeroo 19:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is the complete story:

1. The historical accounts to Aisha's age state she was married to Muhammad at age of six or seven. She then stayed in her parents' home till she had reached puberty. The traditions say this happened at nine (or maybe ten according to Ibn Hisham) and then her marriage with Muhammad was consummated. ONE PART OF THE STORY IS FINISHED NOW.

2. There are several other historical references (quotes from Aisha'a father, etc) however that contradict Aisha being married to Muhammad at the age of nine. Spelberg points out the contradictions but discredits those traditions rather than other traditions on Aisha's age. Some other scholars do otherwise. That's it. Zora has interesting theories of the motivation for possible production of Aisha's age traditions. --Aminz 04:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

3. There are two possibilities: 1. Muhammad married Aisha at age 9. 2. Some Muslims made this up. ; In both cases, it was not seen as a bad thing in the eyes of people living at that time. --Aminz 05:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Your last assertion constitutes an ambiguous-collective logical-fallacy--Mike18xx 05:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Mike18xx, I don't really have the energy to get into discussion. I quote something from Watt and quit this discussion right now: "From the standpoint of Muhammad's time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad's standards werehigher than those of his time. In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'." (p. 229, Watt (1961)).--Aminz 05:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Lemme guess: Watt didn't conduct secret interviews with the women. The fact that you've found a shill in Watt doesn't constitute a rationally valid defense of your ambiguous-collective logical-fallacy. I suggest you summon the necessary energy to familiarize yourself with it.--Mike18xx 07:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Aminz, if you're too tired to defend your position, don't edit contentious articles. The issue is far from solved. Every aspect of the historicity of Muhammed and Aisha (like that of Jesus) is debatable. Why should one set of hadiths be more respected than a set which contradicts them? Because they favour the political position of one Muslim denomination over that of another? You seem to have mistaken history for Truth, rather than accepting that it is simply not possible — without the assistance of some magical device — to know "what really happened", if anything. As such, the only way we can present an encyclopaedic treatment of this subject is to present every point of view, in proportion to the commonality of that view. &#0151; JEREMY 08:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the first sentence, but there are problems with the latter half. --Mike18xx 08:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

There are a variety of contradictory accounts relating to a set of distant, allegedly historical events; we have no rational basis (ie. physical evidence) on which to decide between them at this time. Your link to the "Argument from Ignorance" is inapposite, and indicates that you are making the same "appeal to truth" error as Aminz. History is not science. &#0151; JEREMY 08:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

You really do need to read and understand what the Argument from Ignorance logical fallacy *is* -- because you're indulging in it; your "History is not science" is simply a confession that you don't want to do any hard work in the matter of verification. I shouldn't have to point out that no credible encyclopedia will give truth and error equal-time (because, after all, that's what differentiates a credible encyclopedia from a slap-dash one), and that those who haven't the vaguest idea what's true have no business helping write them. Concerning Aisha's age, unless anyone has a credible reason to discount her own testimony, they should cease and desist editing it out.--Mike18xx 11:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeremy, I don't get how my comment above shows my own POV (that which set of hadiths are more respected). I just reported the views of both parties. My third comment was also quite correct. I'll take it back if you can find for me an 7-8-9th century critic who has criticized Muhammad for his marriage to Aisha. I have a vague memory that John of Damascus,in his book, The Fount of Wisdom, does criticize marriage of Muhammad with Zayd but I don't remember anything about Aisha. It is possible that I am wrong. And I'll take your advice and don't edit contentious articles such as Aisha. --Aminz 08:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Original research, Aminz. You must quote reliable secondary sources that say how old Aisha was. You may defend Muhammad as much as you wish, but justifications for his marriage says nothing about Aisha's age. Pecher ^Talk 09:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Those of you who keep insisting that the hadith are "Aisha's own testimony" don't know anything about hadith. There are many thousands of hadith and they contradict each other!

Which hadith contain contradictory accounts of Aisha's own claims to her age?--Mike18xx 12:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

They were written down hundreds of years after the events they supposedly relate.

I freely stipulate that some hadith, written by authors perhaps unfamiliar with others containing Aisha's own accounts, may contain "guesstimates"; but this is irrelevent.--Mike18xx 12:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Western academics believe that most of them are fabricated. Islamic scholars put more trust in them, but even they battle over which hadith should be trusted and which rejected. Sheesh. Sometimes you insist that Western academics are right, Islamic scholars are unreliable -- when it serves your purposes. But now, it serves your purposes to ignore all of Western academia and say, "Yup, these hadith are true." That's not disinterested pursuit of the truth. Zora 11:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Zora, you're making a straw-man argument by mis-charcterizing the arguments of the other side. The only important thing is how academic and Muslim scholars have interpreted the hadith relating to Aisha's age at the time Muhammad consummated marriage with her. So far, the consensus view of both academic and Muslim scholars is that she was nine (at most, ten). If you ahve credible sources saying otherwise, cite them, but a general response that hadith are not reliable will cut no ice. Pecher ^Talk 12:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Pecher is right that most Muslims believe that Aisha was married at very young age. But Zora is also right that if you criticize traditions of Muslims (which can be read in hadith literature), then why can't we criticize these hadith for which some people have found very reasonable explanations. Wikipedia is a place where arguments for minority are also entertained, otherwise for a novice reader, he will never be able to see the other side of the picture. And lastly, this discussion should be done at Talk:Aisha's age at marriage. SaadSaleem 06:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

If there is a dissenting view of a significant minority, then it must be sourced to reliable sources, citing the opinions of prominent adherents. Original research and murky websites won't do the trick. It's all about how old Aisha was, not about whether Muhammad was a bad man. Pecher ^Talk 07:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

If someone can please look at Talk:Aisha's_age_at_marriage and give us some feedback. That'll be great. TruthSpreader^Talk 14:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

POV

"They adduce the following episodes as proof that Muhammad and Aisha's marriage did not always go smoothly." needs to be clearified.

It is directly followed with adultery issue, implying that Shi'a argue She was guilty. Shi'a do no such thing, and it needs to be clearfied. It is acctualy one of the missconseptions against the Shi'a that Shi'a belive she was guilty, Sunnis are known to quote the Qur'an to "Correct" the Shi'a stance.

So the article needs to state that Shi'a do not regard her as guilty, and that Sunnis have not understood this, quoting the Qur'an to try to "overprove" Shi'a on a stance they do not even hold.

The acctual Shi'a stance is that due to their non-perfect relation, Muhammad (pbuh) did not immediatly dissmissed the allgations.

There is a big difference. We do NOT belive she was guilty, but we POINT OUT that the allegations were not outright dissmissed, and that she was not even supported. In fact, Muhammad wondering what to do about it summms it upp quit well. Also, the article needs to state that Ali did not try to defend her, rather adviced Muhammad that there are other women.

I can add references when the article gets unprotected. Any comments?--Striver 11:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits

Today an anonymous editor changed the name of Muhammad's wife in the "story of the honey" section from Zaynab bint Jahsh to Umm Salama Hind bint Abi Umayya. Both were wives of Muhammad, but is this editor correct in which one was associated with that story?

On another note, Tigeroo has been inserting the word "presentist" into the discussion of critics of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (he has also done it at Aisha's age at marriage". I feel this is not NPOV; I have never heard the word "presentism" used except to be disparaging. I think it's especially true in this case, because those who defend Muhammad by saying Aisha was older are not called "presentists", though they still clearly accept modern morality as the norm (or else they would see the need to defend him for this.) I've reworded it somewhat to be less judgemental, I hope it is satisfactory to all parties now.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

2007

Two sections were removed + I reverted

Accusation of adultery and story of the honey were removed (and I reverted this). If this is to be done it needs to be agreed upon. gren グレン 20:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 20:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

O_o, oh... I am not vouching for the sections. I just wanted to report why I re-added them--although, my section heading and text was probably confusing. I think? gren グレン 21:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

PBUH's in the article

Several places in this article insert "peace be upon him" after naming Muhammad. I am aware that this is the custom among Muslims, but shouldn't this article take a more religiously neutral point of view? I mean, Wikipedia doesn't refer to Jesus of Nazareth as "Christ" or "Jesus Christ" when talking about him in a purely historical sense.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elchip (talk • contribs).

Removed. If you see any more, please take them out.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Aisha according to Central Mosque

Interesting link [14] hope this helps. Hypnosadist 12:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Hideous prose

Compare the following sentence:

The age of Aisha is believed by the majority of Muslims and by the Western scholars of Islam to have been six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.

with what it replaced:

Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.

Why are we using the passive? Why are we reifying an abstract as the subject, when perfectly concrete subjects (two of them, in fact) are available? Proabivouac 03:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Because not everyone is sure, they had the first thing.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.211.213 (talk • contribs)

You're not getting my point. If we wish to say that someone believes something, we say "A believes B", not "B is believed by A." That's writers' workshop 101.Proabivouac 04:29, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Did she do sex with Prophet Muhammad at the age of nine?

It is amazing and unbelievable.Scientifically speaking, it must be very dengerous for her. 222.225.108.100 15:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Please answer the question whether Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was nine or not. That is very important problem on Islam and the Prophet! 210.235.223.102 15:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You can read the article for yourself.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There are sentences which says that Muhammad married Aisha when she was nine.However,there are no sentences about their sexual activities. If Prophet Muhammad had married Aisha when she was nine but he did'nt have sex with her,he must be normal,not pedophil.And it should be written in the article to protect his honor from anti-Islamists.But if he did the deed,he must be pedophil...This is very important question about the dignity of Islam. 210.235.223.102 15:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, you can read the article for yourself. It says pretty clearly that he married her when she was about six and that the marriage was consumated when she was nine, according to the sources. How to deal with this on Wikipedia has been discussed to death on this talk page.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It is not certain that to consumate the marrige actually means having sex! If there are no reliable sources that clearly suggest Muhammad actually had sex with Aisha when she was nine,it should be noted clearly in the page!Unless,that's equal to push Anti-Islam propaganda in the article! It's against NPOV! 210.235.223.102 15:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Dude, the definition of consummating a marriage is having sex for the first time. You can check any English dictionary to discover that for yourself.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad is not pedophil!It mustn't be the truth!You must be anti-Islam!All sources in the article are from the anti-Islam side!Do you know what you are doing!?This article is completely nonsence!!! 210.235.223.102 16:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC

You Guys are supposed to respect islam and its prophet as we muslims respect your religions. Ibrahim130594 (talk) 15:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Puberty

There appears to be a bug in the software, as this revision contains changes not shown in the diff window. One of them is, "stayed in her parents' home till [sic.] she had reached puberty at nine…" From which of the cited sources did you get that, Aminz?Proabivouac 03:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I am quoting F.E. Peters here: [15] or here: [16] Karen Armnstrong says that unconditionally. --Aminz 19:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Note the 3 day delay in response. At the time he was quoting Spellberg, Asma, and the hadith, [17], which either don't mention puberty or, in the case of Spellberg, clearly state that the Muslim biographies draw attention to the fact that Aisha had not reached puberty. Arrow740 07:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Well, that appears to be a good source, though for the life of me I cannot discern upon what basis he draws that presumption. However, Peter's "presumably" is less than an assertion of fact, and I don't see that we can in the business of blindly repeating other's presumptions. We can attribute them, though.Proabivouac 19:52, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you please explain why Aisha stayed in her father's house for three years when she was Muhammad's wife? --Aminz 20:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

You answer me this question, Aminz: Why did she never have a child? Arrow740 20:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

For whatever reason. Muhammad didn't have many childs either. --Aminz 20:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this is why he took so many wives? But anyway, I think having few children may have something to do with how many of his wives were older women? Does it say they consummated frequently? Perhaps Muhammad might embellish consummation so that his wives loyalty to him would not be doubted, but in reality he did not bother them with that because they were too busy spreading Islam to have sex for many babies? Tyciol (talk) 12:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

How should I know? Proabivouac 20:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Now tell me: why is it enyclopedically important at what age Aisha reached puberty? A couple of lines below the puberty speculation, Peters writes that Aisha was about eighteen when Muhammad died, so she was about nine when the marriage was consummated. If the insertion was meant to make her appear older than she was, then it was a nice try. Beit Or 20:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

No. It makes sense of the reason Aisha stayed in her father's house for three years. --Aminz 20:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

He couldn't guarantee her safety in Mecca. Arrow740 21:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It is enough to say that she stayed until reached the age of nine. If puberty were the commonly accepted explanation, then we would certainly cite it. Otherwise, it's out of place. Note that Peters does not state causality. Beit Or 15:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

How about if we put a general statement since we don't have sources about Aisha herself. This is an exact quote from the book Mohammad: Prophet and Statesman by Watt: "We must remember, of course, that girls matured much earlier in seventh-century Arabia." If Watt thought it was important to mention this, perhaps we can mention it in this article. Does anybody object to this? OpTioNiGhT (talk) 23:39, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

It helps to contribute to understanding Aisha's advanced maturity, however being of advanced maturity does not mean you are of puberty. Usually that's determined by first menstruation. Tyciol (talk) 12:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Paedophile

There's a fairly common modern attack on Islam of "Muhammad is a paedophile", based on his six-year-old bride. Shouldn't this be addressed, probably with some historical background (was this controversial in the past).

It seems unbalanced to just say "He married her when she was six" with no further comment on the age, which seems outrageous to modern eyes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.31.166.240 (talk) 22:21, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

The section used to be much larger, and there was even a page dedicated to her age at marriage. There ought to be some further discussion, I feel, but it seems that primarily only dedicated critics or defenders of Islam have published about it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

To answer one of your questions, tho, the marriage was not seen as controversial at the time, even for Muhammad's critics. I believe the article once had a reference to that point (probably from Montgomery Watt), but it also had a lot more of the polemical nonsense from one side or the other which we can do without.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I went through most of the posts related to Aisha's age at the time of marriage. The article does not address that there is a difference of opinion about her age at the time of marriage. Many scholars, for example Maulana Muhammad Ali, Khalid Masood, and others, have published research quoting from earlier sources the conflicting reports about Aisha's age at the time of marriage. Many people accepted six and nine because it is in Bukhari, but that does not discount other sources, such as Ibn-e-Kathir, who have noted events or reports which conclude a much higher age. In addition, even Bukhari's reports have been interpreted by Ghamidi, a philological scholar of Quran and Hadith, as in fact using a style of Arabic where assumed part (i.e. 10) is ommitted and the narrator only ends up saying six (which implies sixteen). In support of his opinion he presents the reports in which Laylat-al-Qadr has been told as one occuring on 3, 5, 7 or 9th night, whereas in fact, it refers to 23rd, 25th, 27th or 29th night during the month of Ramadan. I can point to resources of these scholars - I believe, given the large number of scholars and a significant number of Muslims accepting this view, it is only neutral to put in that point of view and explain the difference of opinion. I would like to put this in, unless there're objections to it. Omer 05:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

By all means, please do so! At the very least, we need a statement saying that modern interpretations of Hadith and such have left Aisha's age in dispute, with some suggesting that Aisha may have been a mature young woman capable of leading a household at the time of consummation of marriage.

• Isn't there any material out there that illustrates her mental maturity? I know I must've read it somewhere. Can we find some source material on her intelligence and maturity at that age, and perhaps use that to balance out the age issue.
• Just because she still played with dolls doesn't make her any less mature or younger. I know I played with my "action figures" and "matchbox cars" well into my teens, and a lot of grown adults play video games.
• And regarding the "consummation" of marriage. That doesn't necessarily imply sex. Yet nowadays, it's mainly construed as the thing that seals the marriage.
• Please let's at least put one contrasting statement and source material next to the line about her age, because this issue is not going to go away. --Fshafique (talk) 01:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

This topic is controversial enough that we need to use only the best sources. Some of those named, such as Maulana Muhammad Ali, are not reliable sources. We certainly do not need a statement saying that "modern interpretations of Hadith and such have left Aisha's age in dispute" if it can't be backed up - and after years of bickering, no one has been able to. As for consummation, that does in fact imply sex. I think the only thing to do would be to reiterate that child marriage was not unheard of in that time and place, and that no contemporary critics used that fact to criticize him. However, I've not been able to find a reliable source saying that. And most of the Islam defenders who edit this article seem to be more concerned with inserting dubious scholarship to make the claim that Aisha was not the age the historical record says she was than with providing context for Aisha's widely accepted age at marriage.--Cúchullain ^t/c 07:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, we do need good sources. I'm no expert on this field, but just reading through Wikipedia's articles on Mohammed and his wives, and Aisha, and finding citations from Grunebaum, Moshe Gil, Irving M. Zeitlin, and others, I'm beginning to see a slight bias, and for Grunebaum, the term Orientalist came up, and Edward Said's criticism of this way of analyzing Arab and Islamic History.
Despite all this, I feel it is justified that it be mentioned that a sizable percentage of Muslims believe that the age is in dispute, provided that we back that up with a citation from a scholar or expert in the field.
And as far as consummation goes, it's all a confusing mess. Some of the Hadith translations say she was engaged at 6, and married at 9, and others say she was married at 6 and "consummated" at 9. Even Wikipedia's own definition of "consummate" suggests it is the actual wedding ceremony, but the sex part is used "in a colloquial context". And I know that translations can really play havoc with the meanings of words.
I'm lost!--Fshafique (talk) 08:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

It would be justified to say that a "sizable" number of Muslims believe the age is in dispute - if it were verifiable. So far no one has found any reliable source indicating it (Asma Barlas' quote to that effect was disputed.) I personally doubt there really is any sizable number. I'd image most don't know about it, or accept it as a fact. As for what sources we use, well, if you have any specific problem with them, bring it up, otherwise it's just vague allegations of bias. As for consummation, you should look for the Arabic meaning rather than the modern English meaning. I've never heard anyone, even strong apologists, argue that consummation in this context means anything other than sex. You are right, however, that some hadith (or English translations of them) say she was betrothed at 6 or 7 and married the prophet at 9, and don't say anything about consummation. However, these verses do not imply that Muhammad waited to consummate the marriage until some later point. Also note that other hadith use the term "cohabitation" rather than consummation, this strongly implies physical relations. As I said above, the real way to handle this would be to simply report it, then state that this was not considered a big deal at the time, even by Muhammad's enemies and critics.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Why isn't there a mention of the song "Islam's not for me?"

It has to go in greater depth the criticism of Muhammad this marriage created. Jknight 98. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.210.199 (talk) 17:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Because that song is a satirical critique of Islam (I wish I could use harsher words) and not a scholarly presentation of history or facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fshafique (talk • contribs) 00:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Age at marriage

I have restored the section on Aisha's age at marriage. There has been a controversial debate on this issue for at least a decade or two, and I see no reason for it to be excluded from the article. It seems the section may have been removed due to a lack of prominent adherents of the opposing view, but now I've added Maulana Muhammad Ali as a prominented adherent, and may add more adherents later. Jagged 85 07:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It was removed previously not because there were no "prominent" adherents the the view, but because the opinions of the people presented were not notable in and of themselves. Was Maulana Muhammad Ali a historian? Your version certainly gives Ali's view undue weight with that long, uncontextualized quote. I don't object to the controversy over her age being discussed, but that's different than making it seems like only "'Western' historians" and "Muslim conservatives" believe Aisha was married young. I'm sure Japanese historians and many other Muslims will come to the same conclusion based on the evidence.--Cúchullain ^t/c 07:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It would be original research to remove the arguments presented on the basis of personal opinion of how "convincing" we find them. How the section is written or whether it should stay depends on how the debate is viewed by scholars in reliable sources, not by how we personally view them. I am currently planning to re-write and shorten Muhammad Ali's argument in a non-quote form, which should balance out any undue weight issues. Jagged 85 07:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

"Maulana" Ali is not a historian. Please read the record of the development of the concensus on this issue. Thanks. Arrow740 07:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it is best to summarize the minority view as following (sourced to Asma Barlas): "A minority of Muslims calculate the age of Aisha to have been over 13 and 14, perhaps between 17 and 19. These Muslims base their calculation on the more details we have of Aisha's sister (Asma); on the details of Muhammad's migration from Mecca to Medina; Aisha's reported knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry, genealogy, and the the fundamental rules of Arabic-Islamic ethics at her marriage." --Aminz 07:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Feminist political scientists can be safely ignored on these matters, thanks. Arrow740 08:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This is not Barlas's opinion. She is reporting of Muslims who do so and so. No analysis of her own is involved here. --Aminz 08:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

We've been over this too many times already. If you have anything to add to the old discussion, where you forwarded that Barlas was talking about people even less reliable than herself, add it. Otherwise please spare us the effort of pasting the old rebuttals here. Arrow740 08:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Likewise. --Aminz 08:06, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

So, I take it that you're satisfied with the quite conclusive past discussion and have nothing to add. That is the case for me. Arrow740 08:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

"CONCLUSIVE?" --Aminz 08:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be more discussion on the subject, considering it has come up with critics of Muhammad and critics of Islam. If it were expanded, then perhaps we could have a sentance that some Muslims believe she wasn't so young, and probably point out that it wasn't seen as a problem at the time even with Muhammad's contemporary enemies.--Cúchullain ^t/c 08:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

We have to separate polemics from history here. Every historian of Islam unequivocally states that she was 6 or 7 at betrothal and 9 at marriage. Arrow740 08:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, certainly. But this comes up enough to warrant discussion, perhaps in a different section, and after making it clear that the primary sources all say she was that young.--Cúchullain ^t/c 08:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Arrow, if by historian, you mean those who study Islam in west it is correct. They accept it because the primary source say she was that young, because early marriage were not in anyways un-normal at that time, that there are reports of Aisha playing with dolls etc. But as a matter of fact there are contradictions in the reports implicitly touching the age of Aisha in the primary sources, and again as a matter of fact a minority of Muslims accept those reports. --Aminz 08:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, it's not just "Western historians". You've never been able to provide a single historian, non-Western or otherwise, who concludes that Aisha was older.--Cúchullain ^t/c 08:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

<reset>Reliable sources have already answered the question for us. The only people disputing it are people who are not scholars of Islam, and have an axe to grind. We can't give their wishful thinking undue weight. Arrow740 08:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

You're not following me. It wouldn't be giving them any weight at all, it would just be giving the basic points of a notable modern discussion. If anything, I think that just saying she was six and not bringing up how this looks to modern eyes makes it seem like we're dodging an issue, covering it up to avoid offense.--Cúchullain ^t/c 08:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the real and authentic "scholars of Islam" include exactly those who study Islam in west, nor have they ever made this claims of themselves. They look at the events from a certain perspective and based on certain principles and assumptions; and so do others.--Aminz 08:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I've searched through the archives and I have found nothing on Maulana Muhammad Ali or Asma Barlas being unreliable sources. Ali is a notable Islamic scholar who has written many books on Islam, and is therefore a reliable source on Islamic issues by default. As for Balas, her book in question was published by the University of Texas Press and is therefore also a reliable source. There is absolutely no reason why the views from notable Islamic scholars or writers from reputable publishing houses should be excluded from the article, regardless of whether of not it is a minority view. Excluding significant minority views from the article is nothing more than a suppression of information which goes against the fundamental Wikipedia policy of neutrality, which holds that all majority views and significant minority views should be presented in Wikipedia articles. It is only tiny minority views without reliable sources that should be excluded according to the undue weight guideline, not significant minority views with prominent adherents. The fact that this view has prominent Islamic scholars adhering to it like Maulana Muhammad Ali, Allama Habib-ur-Rahman Siddiqui Kandhalvi, Khalid Masood, etc. means that this view is a signficant minority view and cannot be excluded under any circumstances. My suggestion is something along the lines of what Aminz suggested earlier, i.e. stating that there is a minority view which disagrees with the majority view. Not doing so would be a breach of Wikipedia's policies. Jagged 85 09:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't. Fringe theories which are not even addressed by serious scholars have no place here. Read the talk page from the old article and you'll see explained that Barlas is reliable for some things but not all, as is the case with anyone. History is outside her area of expertise. Further Maulana Ali is undeniably an apologist and highly partisan. We will not include his propaganda here. It is already included in the criticism articles to a worrying extent. Arrow740 21:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

On who's authority do you claim it to be a fringe theory? Like I said, personal opinions and original research have no place of Wikipedia. If you're claiming that the consensus is that Aisha was nine, then you will need to cite a reliable source that confirms your claim of consensus. The only reliable source that even discusses any kind of consensus on the issue is Barlas, therefore you will need to reference her to confirm your claim either way, regardless of whether you agree with her views. I've read some of the previous arguments on her at Talk:Aisha's age at marriage and find their reasons to be biased and unencyclopedic. All I saw was just personal opinions being thrown around with hardly any references to Wikipedia's own policies. Barlas has written many books on Islam which have been published by reputable publishing houses like the Cambridge University Press and the University of Texas Press, therefore she is a scholar of Islam, and yet some users still try to claim she is not a reliable source based on their own biased opinions rather on Wikipedia policies? Like you said, propoganda does not belong here, and the suppression of information is by far the worst kind of propoganda. Suppressing such vital information is misleading and is, again, a breach of Wikipedia's policies. Jagged 85 03:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

She's a feminist political scientist. Those are her qualifications. Read a biography of Muhammad by a serious scholar. They all endorse the explicit statements in the sahih collections regarding her age. This makes the silly attempts at obfuscation by apologists such as the ones to which you are giving undue weight fringe theories. Arrow740 05:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not giving them any undue weight, as I have explicitly stated in the article itself that their view is only supported by a minority of scholars. The reason why Barlas is an important source is because she is the only one who actually confirms what the the majority and minority views are, therefore she cannot be ignored. I honestly don't see how her being a feminist is even relevant to the discussion. She is a scholar of Islam who has written plenty of books on Islam published by major scholarly publishing houses like the Cambridge and Texas university presses, therefore she qualifies as a reliable source in every way by Wikipedia's standards. Jagged 85 06:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

She is an unqualified polemicist. Read the work you are citing for some bizarre statements. Arrow740 06:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not too sure what exactly you are referring to, but like I said above, we should not be judging her based on our own personal views. It really does not matter whether we agree with her or not, but what matters is how other academics view her work. If her work has been published by reputable publishers (which it has) and not received any negative reviews from other scholars (which it has not as far as I know), then her book qualifies as a reliable source for Wikipedia. Jagged 85 06:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

It is not the case that everything published by a reputable press can be produced here. That has been an issue with Bat Ye'or and others. Barlas' statements are simply ludicrous. I have shown some of the humor on the other talk page. "Some Muslims..." and as Aminz found out, those "Muslims" likely includes other political scientists, sociologists, and the like. Something stated by the sahih hadith and confirmed by mainstream scholars is what we present. Something in direct contradiction of that needs quite a case, and you haven't presented one. Arrow740 06:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Arrow740. We don't need to include polemics from unqualified sources. -- Karl Meier 06:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: Karl: Barlas is a fully qualified source by Wikipedia's standards. Read my reasons above. Jagged 85 07:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: Arrow: Again, it would be original research to be presenting our own case for what we think about the topic. If you are not satisfied with Maulana Ali's argument however, you can read Allama Habib-ur-Rahman Siddiqui Kandhalvi's book for a full rebuttal of those hadiths and he presents substantial alternative evidence from the hadiths and other sources. Jagged 85 07:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't change the subject. Barlas has no qualifications as a historian. Arrow740 07:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Jagged 85: Please be careful about that strawman. I have read the comments and I believe that no one has argued that his personal opinions should be included. What we are dissatisfied here are the sources that you want to include. As mentioned, we do not have space for all published polemics by partisan sources such as the above mentioned: We are supposed to be concise and such things can be omitted per among other things WP:NPOV#Undue Weight, in order to avoid wasting our readers time. As for Barlas specifically, it is clear just from reading her article, that she doesn't have the necessary qualifications to be a useful source on the subject of Islamic history. -- Karl Meier 07:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: Arrow: Again, on who's authority do you claim Barlas to be an unreliable source for Islamic history? She has written works on Islamic history published by the likes of Cambridge and Texas university presses. It is not up to you or me to review her work, and it would be original research to do so. Your opinions on her work are irrelevant unless you can find scholarly reviews that actually support your view. Jagged 85 08:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: Karl: The undue weight guideline states that only tiny minority views may be ommitted, NOT significant minority views. Using the undue weight guideline to justify the removal of ALL minority views would end up breaking another rule: the Space and balance. Jagged 85 08:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: Arrow & Karl: If both of you believe that there is a consensus regarding Aisha's age, then you will need to cite a reliable source to support your claim of consensus... And the only source that actually claims the majority view is nine years old is none other than Barlas. Jagged 85 08:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The "claim of concensus" clause refers to claims stated in the article. Nice try. According to WP:V, you have to show that your source is reliable. You can't. Arrow740 08:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Guys, please read continue discussion here [18] --Aminz 08:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Forum-shopping. You lost the argument the first time and are losing it again, so you prolong it. The result will be the same for the same reasons. Arrow740 08:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

This is all your imagination Arrow. --Aminz 09:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'll continue the discussion over there. Jagged 85 10:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Over at Wikisource we are discussing the deletion of s:Age of Aisha, which appears to be copyright. If anyone has evidence that it is public domain, that would be great. I suggest everyone who is interested in the age controversy go read it one last time before it is deleted from Wikisource.

That document used to be a source on the article "Aisha's age at marriage" which has been gutted and eventually redirected to this article, because apparently there were no named scholars except for Barlas (see Talk:Aisha's age at marriage#Redirect). From a quick review of both talk pages, I cant believe that the entire debate has been reduced to : "Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated.^[][][][]".

That sentence is no where near enough to explain the amount of scholarly research that has been done on this topic, which was more adequately covered 12 months ago on the previous article. Without having dug very deep into what has happened here, my guess is that three aspects need to be revisited here:

1. published opinion that is held by a significant number of people is notable, and warrants mention. If Barlas is being a reliable source of that modern opinion, I cant see why it is entirely excluded. In my opinion, inclusion of "modern opinion" is desirable as cultural themes and how they are shifted over the centuries are as important as the historical facts. That said, modern opinions need to be kept in perspective - they may be short lived.
2. there is a systematic bias to omit or reject reliable sources from non-Western sources - removing chunks of text that do not have sources should never be done unless the person removing them is absolutely certain that no sources exist, including at a library - such removal of unsourced text makes Wikipedia into an amateurs encyclopedia.
3. that sentence on this article does nothing to mention that age 9 was not an unusual for the era, which is a crucial point as it is often used to quell the controversy over the age of consummation. John Vandenberg (talk) 21:53, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of Women and Islamic Cultures source

Aminz recently added a number of citations to the Encyclopedia of Women and Islamic Cultures. This may or may not be a reliable source (I know nothing about it), but assuming that it is, Aminz, you're going to have to do much better with your citations (as in page numbers, the title of the entry, the author of the entry, etc) rather than just attributing all statements to the "Encyclopedia". Forgive me for being skeptical, but you have a history of trying to include the view that Aisha was older than the primary sources indicate, and most of the sources you have introduced have been rejected as unreliable. Please include the authors' reasoning for their claim that Aisha was 12 when she was married; I assume they have a reason to be disagreeing with the hadith and Tabari. If they don't, or offer only circumstantial evidence, that would be a strike against their credibility in this particular instance. This has been discussed so much here that I think explanation is warranted.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I am using the online version of the encyclopedia (like EoQ and EoI). So, I don't have page numbers. I have provided the title and author of the entry however. Please don't write your statements in their general form "most of the sources you have introduced have been rejected as unreliable" (by whom?). Among those source that were according to you rejected, please let me explain again why you think "Islamic sciences and Culture Academy" [19] was a non-reputable source. --Aminz (talk) 23:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If you got it from the online version, can you provide the links? I'm sure there are also names for the individual entries you are using, this needs to be included too. Finally, some context is necessary - please explain where the authors get their numbers from, and why they go against what is said in the hadith. One of the major problems you have been facing here is that you just dump in uncontextualized quotes with no explanation of how it's relevant. As to your last statement, the sources have been roundly rejected by consensus at this page. However, I'm sorry I directed it at you, you were not the only one introducing such sources.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Cuchullain, here is the link [20]. The authors say that there is even a wide belief that Aisha married at 12, but do not explain the sources they got their information from (nor do I think Wikipedia requires us to investigate because the threshold for inclusion is verifiability and not truth). They also mention that the minimum age for female marriage was between 11-16(and in a few cases up to 21) in medieval times based on Sharia.

Cuchullain, Barlas mentioned the reasons of those who believe Aisha was older FROM HADITH LITERATURE(And Asma Barlas is a perfectly reliable source when it comes to reporting facts - when it comes to interpretations she has her own view). The other source "Islamic sciences and Culture Academy" provides similar arguments. I don't remember anybody has ever mentioned any argument to show the unreliability of "Islamic sciences and Culture Academy" [21]. Can you please show me where a consensus was formed against the reliability of this source. A diff would suffice. Thanks --Aminz (talk) 23:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Cuchullain, you have removed a whole lot of material that I had added. For example: In Arabian culture, marriage was generally contracted in accordance with the larger needs of the tribe and was based on the need to form alliances within the tribe and with other tribes. is the fact that Muhammad hoped to strengthen his ties with Abu Bakr through marriage with his daughter is an opinion and I have separated fact from opinion (pointing out where the opinion has come from). If you think we should know where the opinions come from, please explain why you removed this? --Aminz (talk) 23:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about with the Islamic Sciences and Culture Academy. I recall no discussion of it at all. Is it relevent to the discussion at hand? Barlas was also discussed to death previously, and consensus was against using her interpretation (her book is still is used to report certain facts in this article).

At any rate, the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, but that not mean we include everything that can possibly be verified by a reliable source. In this case the quote has no context and no assertion that it's important. Additionally, what you've just said is different than what you had in the article: do they say that Aisha was 12 when she married, or do they say that there is a belief that she was? These are two entirely different things. But in either case, the article is not served by dropping in uncontextualized quotes. I see that the encyclopedia is not freely available, so links are not necessary. However, you will need to provide the necessary context and assertions of importance.

As for what I removed, I just reverted your blitzkreig. I didn't go through it to separate out the uncontroversial material from the material I have challenged above. Some of it can probably be put back in, but that's your prerogative. Do not, however, add the challenged material back in until we have resolved this.--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Cuchullain, you have been unjust to me. You shouldn't have removed well-sourced material in the first place before discussing them. You reverted me two times on this. You were expected to know what you are removing both times. --Aminz (talk) 00:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Aminz, your edits are not admissible as a tiny minority view per WP:NPOV. And I must support Cuhcullain that your editing history is overwhelmingly apologetic, so scepticism would be warranted even if your edits were defensible. Beit Or 00:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Beit Or. Aminz, I'm not going to pick apart your vast amount of edits looking for stray good material, when the majority of it is disputed, and when you have a history of adding apologetic material into this article. This is just a side note to the discussion anyway.--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Cuchullain, is this a personal attack? You might want to check out Isaac, Ishmael, Islamic view of Ezra (and recently to-become-GA Anger) and other GA articles I have significantly contributed to and show me my apologetic bias. --Aminz (talk) 00:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Read what I said: "adding apologetic material into this article". I said nothing about your other contributions. I also said only that the material was apologetic, not that you were inherently an apologist yourself. I think we would all be served by disengaging for a while, so we can all chill out.--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Cuchullain, how can you say that "I have no idea what you're talking about with the Islamic Sciences and Culture Academy. I recall no discussion of it at all. Is it relevent to the discussion at hand?" when I mentioned this a couple of times on your own talk page that this source supports Aisha being much more than 9? --Aminz (talk) 00:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

That's non sequitur. You may try settling personal issues on user talk pages, but I would discourage you from doing so. Beit Or 00:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I forgot you had posted that to my talk page. However, you could have been more specific. That was 2 months ago, I've had a lot to do since then, both in my real life and on Wikipedia. At any rate, I can't see that it has been brought up over here before, so obviously there won't have been any discussion about it. But again, this is not particularly relevant to the current discussion about the Encyclopedia of Women and Islamic Cultures.--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

while i agree that the disputing over the age reflects the perspective of a minority (and, IMO, a largely rejected view), i cannot see anything unfactual with the notions that a) people were married young in premodern Arabia (in fact, premodernity in general), or that b) Muhammad delayed consummation until the onset of puberty; and i don't see why the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater in this instance.

as for the Encyclopedia of Women & Islamic Cultures, i would say that any material published by Brill Publishers is reliable, considering the prestigious publishing history they have in the field of Islamic studies and the Near East in general.ITAQALLAH 01:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, Itaqallah. I regret that some potentially good material got cut out, but it is easy enough to reinclude. As for the challenged material, as I explained, the problem is not that the encyclopedia is unreliable (it looks reliable to me), it's with the use of it here. I explained the true issues above - it is not acceptable to drop in quotes expressing a minority viewpoint with no context or explanation of why the authors disagree with the primary sources. This is a controversial subject, and we must be very fastidious in what information we include.--Cúchullain ^t/c 05:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Cuchullain, the source does not provide the information you would like to know.

Cuchullain, please let me know if you agree that when Barlas reports a facts (not her own interpretation of something, for now), it is usable. --Aminz (talk) 06:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) We are not discussing Barlas here. That was already discussed at length above and at different forums. We are currently discussing the Encyclopedia you recently introduced as a source. To that, I'm very disappointed that they apparently don't back up their assertions. But you can clear one thing up: when you dropped the quote into the article, you said that "According to Barbara Ibrahim and Alyce Abdalla, Aisha was betrothed when she was nine and married when she was twelve." But here on the talk page, you said "The authors say that there is even a wide belief that Aisha married at 12..." These are two different things. Which do they actually say?--Cúchullain ^t/c 07:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC) Additionally, I almost have to believe that the authors somehow explain their claims. I don't believe they would simply make bald statements about things like this with no backup whatsoever.--Cúchullain ^t/c 07:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is all that the source says (I have provided a much longer quotation so to include everything):

The Prophet Muhammad is widely believed to have married his third wife ʿĀʾisha when she was 12. They were betrothed by her father in order to forge a political alliance when she was 9. The Prophet deliberately delayed consummation of the marriage until she reached physical maturity. His example set a religious standard for the appropriate age for marriage of females just after the onset of menses. Engagement or betrothal, however, often took place much earlier. This pattern of female marriage soon after reaching reproductive capability is typical of premodern societies in many parts of the world. In those settings, fertility is central to adult female identity; childhood ends and adult responsibility begins with physical maturity. When Arab nations emerged into statehood in the middle of the twentieth century, they often enshrined in law the low marriage ages allowable under Muslim Sharīʿa law. Thus, marriage is legal for females at age 11 in Sudan, 14 in Yemen, and 16 in Egypt. (But there are exceptions: Syria and Jordan set the legal age at 18, while it is 21 in Libya.) Meanwhile, understandings of what constitutes childhood and how children are to be protected have evolved rapidly in recent years. Countries such as Egypt have adopted comprehensive legislation to protect children and enforce their rights to such social benefits as education and health care. Governmental agencies now exist in nearly every Arab country to protect the interests of children, and girl children are often subject to special remedial programs and protections. Childhood in these recent legal codes is commonly defined as extending to the age of 18, following international United Nations standards.

After this, I'd like to discuss Barlas again (because I don't think any consensus was formed previously). --Aminz (talk) 07:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It is disruptive to bring up the same issue time and again, hoping that the new mixture of editors will be more favorably inclined towards your POV. Beit Or 21:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. The authors do not seem to explain where they got the age of 12 from, nor from where they got the claim that Muhammad had delayed the marriage until puberty. This contradicts all the other sources, and offers no explanation for it. While the claim does appear in what looks to be a reliable source, I can't see how including this information would benefit the article. All it would do would be confuse things (or push a POV). I'd say unless a show of consensus for including it develops on this talk page, there is no need to muddy the waters with this.

As for Barlas, I think that has been discussed to death. There was consensus - to not use Barlas (remember that consensus does NOT equal total agreement: it "does not mean that everyone agrees with the outcome; instead, it means that everyone agrees to abide by the outcome.") Notice, however, that Barlas' work is still used here to support certain facts. Unless you have some new information, or if someone new wants to weigh in, I can't see what further debate over this will achieve.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Many academic sources do not explain where they have got their information for every statement they write.. common... But in the case of Muhammad delaying his marriage, the source does seem to provide another evidence: Later jurists took this example and said that marriage should be consummated after physical maturity. So, at least that should consistent with the Muslim view.

Cuchullain, I don't remember there was any consensus of any form, merely edit wars that ended up in one direction. When did I or others agreed to "abide by the outcome"?

The question is not whether "Aisha was nine years old", the question is "are there a minority of Muslims who think otherwise and why?". Barlas reports "there are such Muslims" and explains why they think so. This is a simple report of facts. What she herself thinks is her opinion. I have already showed you another prestigious religous organization in Iran that mentions the new view on the age of Aisha. If this was Persian wikipedia, no further discussion was really necessary. A simple google search will show that many websites mention that Aisha was older than nine. Even websites that are engaged in refuting Islam mention and refute this in detail [22]. --Aminz (talk) 19:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

First, as I said above, we must be very fastidious in what is included here. We should not use sources that make claims contradicting the other sources without backing up their assertions, simply because we like their conclusions. Second, the idea about later jurists following Muhammad's example says nothing about whether Muhammad actually waited, only that people hundreds of years later thought he did.

As to consensus, I think you have a misunderstanding of how it works. There was no agreement that it should be added, so it was left out. There was some discussion over the issue, but it did not result in any agreement. Then there was a period silence, which "implies consent", according to the policy page. At that stage neither you and the others who agreed with you brought in any new evidence to the discussion, and did not seek dispute resolution. This indicates that consensus had been reached to leave out the information, even if you still didn't like it. Again, I don't see what discussing Barlas again will achieve, unless you have something new to say, or unless someone new wants to weigh in.

I agree that we should report that a minority of Muslims believe Aisha was older than nine, with the caveat that (a). they are a minority, and (b). that this view is not supported by the hadith or the vast majority of scholars. Above, I suggested putting this in a separate section dealing with modern views on the subject, which would also include how Aisha's age has been used by critics of Muhammad. In such a section I believe Barlas could be used to report that Muslims believe Aisha was older than 9. However, she should not be used to try and make it sound like Aisha actually was older. However, this suggestion has gained no traction amid the endless fighting.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Cuchullain, all we know of Aisha was written at least 150 years later after her, enough time for ancient "star treatment". Of course if we are going to mention this minority view, we should mention that "it is minority", "western scholars of Islam don't accept it" and that "there are hadiths that clearly say that she was nine" and that this could have very well happened because it was not unnormal in that society. But at the same time, we should mention the arguments of those who say why she was older than nine. And of course since these are all modern views, we can add them to a separate section on modern views. What western critics have said can also be mentioned in that section. Thanks for the suggestion. --Aminz (talk) 21:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see such a section introduced. I would also like to see some historical context about marriages at the time. It should be said that child marriage was not unheard of back then, and that no contemporary critic of Muhammad used that against him. Just stating baldly that Muhammad and Aisha's marriage was consummated when she was nine and offering no context or explanation is ridiculous, considering how it seems to modern readers. However, we must note that the view that Aisha was older is held only by non-specialists, and not by historians (and no, not just "Western" historians.)--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

not sure if this is contentious - "The Prophet deliberately delayed consummation of the marriage until she reached physical maturity." (from the above source) this is what the source asserts, which it then states is the basis for later followers specifying menses for the appropriate age of marriage or consummation. ITAQALLAH 22:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Cuchullain's proposal is a good suggestion. Regarding the usage of "western historians", I don't mean historians that are in west or are ethnically western, but rather "academic historians". But "specialist" is a vague word. The traditional Muslim schools did/do not have the strict credential system we have in academia; the status of a person is rather defined based on the recognition he receives from his peers. And their views regarding the age of Aisha don't matter to ordinary people except when juristic applications is made. So, maybe "academic historians" might be a good term. (?) --Aminz (talk) 02:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Toys and Spirit

I would like to remove the sentence "After the wedding, Aisha continued to play with her toys, and Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games.[7]" Just because Watt was an expert on Islam doesn't mean everything he wrote can be stated as fact. Arrow740, you can save me the trip to the library by telling me what source Watt used for this statement. Is it a Hadith or a quote from a historian of that time? OpTioNiGhT (talk) 05:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Either way it doesn't look like it's very controversial point. I'm restoring it as it looks like a relevant fact from a very reputable secondary source.--Cúchullain ^t/c 07:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

It looks like a cheap way of asserting the POV that Aisha was still a child. Also, there is no similar reference to the spirit of Mohammad in any of the historical sources about his life. It is a fringe point that is rather ambiguous. What does it add to the article? OpTioNiGhT (talk) 23:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if it is relevant even if she were playing with her toys. Marriage to children is not allowed in Islam? The key issue is whether or not she remained a child when the marriage was consummated, not when they married. As in, it's okay if she played with toys while she was living with her parents (despite being married to Muhammad) however when she moved out and moved into Muhammad's home, while it seems clear she brought her dolls with her, did she continue to play with them, or were they brought out of sentiment for past times and to give to her future children? Tyciol (talk) 13:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I totaly agree since the Hadith mentioned in Sahih Al-Bukhari #6198 narrated by Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) says she used to play with her friends with toys during the presence of the prophet Peace be up on him. The Hadith has nothing to do with what Watt wrote that the prophet (Peace be up on him) entered into the spirit of these games. Please remove this sentence since it's not authentic according to the Hadith. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.201.90.224 (talk) 00:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd also question the sources for Watt. The point made above (the Hadith) stands against Watt's perspective, and if the source for Watt is not clarified and authenticated with more strength than the Hadith mentioned above, then this point is to be corrected (especially if it proves to be just a personal interpretation of Watt's understanding). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.201.90.224 (talk) 01:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

If it were just a personal interpretation of Watt's words that would be one thing. But if it's what Watt says it's relevant, as it reinforces the fact that Aisha was quite young.--Cúchullain ^t/c 07:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, I went to the library and checked out Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman by Watt. On page 102 it states: “The sources do not comment directly on her [Aisha] tender years, though they describe how she went on playing with her toys, and how Muhammad entered into the spirit of her games.” I find that this is taken a bit out of context and presented as fact, when Watt himself was simply referring to what the sources say about it. In the section “Note on the Sources”, it is explained that the Quran was the primary source for this work and that other sources include Sirah or Life by Ibn-Is’haq, and Maghazi or Expeditions of al-Waqidi. Seeing that there is no reference to “the spirit” of Muhammad in any of the major Islamic sources, I don’t think we need to keep this statement. As for the playing with toys, the hadith mentions Aisha playing with dolls (not toys) with her friends. There is controversy concerning this hadith because it is not clear if this happened before or after the marriage. I would like Arrow740 to come up with at least one more source (other than Watt) that talks about this issue. OpTioNiGhT (talk) 04:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Cuchullain, your re-wording is completely misleading. We don't know if the sources mention anything about the spirit. We have a hadith that mentions the toys but does not refer to whether this is before or after the wedding. I will remove the sentence until you provide me with any source (other than Watt) that mentions the spirit of Mohammad in any way. Please post your comments here before re-introducing this phrase. Perhaps we can come to an agreement about the toys, but I really doubt you will find anything to back up the mention of the spirit. OpTioNiGhT (talk) 01:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I reworded it to reflect what Watt says. There's no need for another source, he's an emminent authority on the subject. And reliable secondary sources are preferable to primary sources, as those can be interpreted in various ways (as brought up at WP:PRIMARY).--Cúchullain ^t/c 04:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I corrected the title of the book. I still think we can come to an agreement on this statement. I am not asking to use primary sources. All I'm saying is that Watt is not the only source on Islam. The reference to spirits is so unconventional that another source would be good idea.OpTioNiGhT (talk) 15:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Aisha/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

It says on 'Age at marriage, 'having sexual relationships with a girl so young'. There are no sources that state he had sexual relationships with Aisha but rather they contradict this. Aisha was Muhammeds only virgin wife. So please could I remove this. Thank you. MFHEagle123 (talk) 18:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)MFHEagle123

Last edited at 18:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 20:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)