Talk:Al Jazeera Arabic/Archive 5

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Archive 5

Clarification needed

Before now, was final para of lead:

The site claimed to have broken a taboo by allowing criticism in studios of Arab rulers that was heard without censorship but did not express a demand for the rights of minorities in Qatar or support for democracy and freedom of expression in Qatar itself.

References

The site? I don't what that is, but apparently it's in the claiming business of broken taboos.

"studios"? What is that trying to say, in English this time?

After the claiming business, we're making a list of things not expressed, potentially a very long list, but we seemed to have focused on just two items, for undeclared reason.

And the cite is in Hebrew, which did not support further investigation. — MaxEnt 23:00, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

That's the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation, probably not the best of sources for this subject. I would be looking to see this in other RS before restoring it. Selfstudier (talk) 23:06, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. If used as a solo source, the sentence would at least need to begin: "According to the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation, ...". Beyond that, it would have to be high value in offering an acute perspective to deserve that treatment. — MaxEnt 23:21, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Come to Afghanistan

slaam. If you able to come to our country Afghanistan and see it's economice and culture stations it's well be good for us. 23.88.196.208 (talk) 12:41, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Editorial independence from Qatar

I think this is something that is due to include from the lead, especially as this article is specifically about the Arabic news channel, and not the English one. As the BBC has noted in 2019 [1]: Al Jazeera English is known to audiences worldwide for its varied coverage, which often sheds light on underreported stories. But its reporting - which only occasionally hints at the affiliations of its Qatari owners - comes in stark contrast to Al Jazeera Arabic. AJA's obvious stance on key regional crises and rivalries heavily colours its output. Its friendly coverage of Islamist groups - particularly favouring those aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood - came to the fore particularly with the 2011 uprisings in the region. Some of its correspondents have adopted a still harder line. In 2015, prominent anchor Ahmed Mansour offered a sympathetic account of the activities of al-Qaeda's Syria affiliate in a lengthy interview with its leader. Hemiauchenia

Do we have another source for this? I mean BBC is itself known for its own bias on key issues. For eg read

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/oct/16/bbc-gets-1500-complaints-over-israel-hamas-coverage-split-50-50-on-each-side

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/british-journalist-accuses-western-media-of-bias-in-reporting-on-israel-palestine-conflict/3019152 Gsgdd (talk) 03:35, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

There are entire academic books dedicated to this topic: Here's a relevant chapter in one [2] Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:52, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Another source [3] Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:00, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Is it worthwhile to bring up allegations of bias in intro? Many people perceive bias in Western media, including outlets like the BBC, and such allegations are widespread across various news websites. This is not surprising, as bias is inherent in human nature. Ultimately, it's up to the audience to determine what they consider as biased. Like Israel media is biased on issues affecting them. So is Indian, Russia etc..

I believe that allegations of bias shouldn't necessarily be featured in the introduction; instead, they could be appropriately placed in the criticism section. Moreover, it's essential to trust in the discernment of readers; they can distinguish between bias and unbiased reporting on their own. There's no need to impose our or others' opinions on Wikipedia. Gsgdd (talk) 04:19, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I think mentioning their coverage of the Arab Spring and their relationship with Islamism is probably due to cover in the lead, as it is prevalent in academic coverage of Al Jazeera Arabic. I don't think that we need to mention accusations of bias regarding AJ English, because it's much less prevalent in the sources. Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:27, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

The only credible article I found about bias is this https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/mideast-journalists-allege-bias-in-al-jazeeras-reporting-on-morsi-and-muslim-brotherhood/2013/07/08/9166c364-e80e-11e2-aa9f-c03a72e2d342_story.html

This is actual news. But this is in 2013. Network may have changed since then. Is there any recent credible news of bias? The bbc report you linked is also quoted saying particularly favouring those aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood - came to the fore particularly with the 2011 uprisings in the region. So this allegation is very old. It is also a Analysis by Amira Fathalla. I don't think analysis or opinion or allegation should be in intro. The reference to meforum.org in your edit is also questionable. It's a forum where anyone can post anything, so it may not be a reliable source of facts or news. I suggest removing it from the introduction and placing it in the controversies section instead. Gsgdd (talk) 06:53, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I believe that it's unnecessary to sway readers' opinions by writing it is biased towards Muslim Brotherhood, particularly when there is a lack of recent credible, news material. I place more importance on facts and real news events than the opinions of a BBC analyst. Gsgdd (talk) 07:03, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I've come around to agreeing with this. I think that even for Al Jazeera Arabic, many of the sources complaining about its bias are partisan (except the BBC, but this is only a single source) and is better discussed in the body. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:56, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

👍 Gsgdd (talk) 04:52, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Also, basically all of references of this lead sentence Al Jazeera is known for its independent and in-depth reporting, particularly in conflict zones. It has been praised for its in-depth coverage of events such as the Arab Spring, the Gaza–Israel conflict, and others.Al Jazeera's coverage of the Arab Spring won the network numerous awards, including the Peabody Award. are specifically about Al Jazeera English and not about Al Jazeera Arabic. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I think we can remove this from Al Jazeera Arabic- once we make the article name change. Gsgdd (talk) 03:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

References

References

Requested move 29 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus. There is an unanimous support to move the article as proposed. As for the base title, there is no consensus on where it should be redirected to.

There are several points to note:

1. the large number of pages linking here on enwiki (>8,500); an uncertainty which wikilinks are meant for which entity, be it the English or Arabic edition;
2. and different proposals to redirect the base name to either the English edition or the parent media organisation;
3. and also some support for the original proposal of a dab page.

As such, invoking WP:BARTENDER and drawing on the parallel discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Al_Jazeera, turning the base name into a disambiguation page as proposed for the time being will allow us to:

1. sort the on-wiki links out;
2. determine which entity is the primary topic a couple of months down the road.

Another discussion can be reopened in the future to determine if the dab page should remain a dab page at the base name or be moved to the disambiguation parenthetical a primary redirect, after traffic is stable enough for analysis, as well as analysis of sources to help determine the primary topic. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 16:02, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

---

Al Jazeera → Al Jazeera Arabic – Most english speakers are primarily familiar with Al Jazeera English, often simply known as "Al Jazeera", and the title of this article is therefore confusing, as noted at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Al_Jazeera. I think a disambiguator like this is therefore necessary. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:27, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Note: The proposed redirect title originally had a parenthetical, but I changed it in response to feedback. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I think we have enough consensus to move Al Jazeera → Al Jazeera Arabic. Can we do it?

Question then is whether to move Al Jazeera English to just Al Jazeera or a disambiguation page for `Al Jazeera` with possible targets. Gsgdd (talk) 22:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

moving conv to Where should Al Jazeera redirect to? Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Al_Jazeera Gsgdd (talk) 01:05, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Can we move Al Jazeera → Al Jazeera Arabic consensus reached Gsgdd (talk) 05:16, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Not yet. To give everyone a chance to participate, these discussions are generally kept open for at least seven days. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:53, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support in principle, why not Al Jazeera Arabic which redirects here? Selfstudier (talk) 13:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• I suppose one could argue that "Al Jazeera" is its actual title, and that "Al Jazeera Arabic" is not what the channel actually calls itself, but would have no issue with that title either. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:39, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support The current title seems to have led to editors putting material here rather than on the English language version, as mentioned elsewhere on this talk page, e.g. the Peabody award was on this page but not mentioned on the English version's page. Burrobert (talk) 14:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support any proposed disambiguated title, Al Jazeera's English channel has become quite well established, and it is highly doubtful most English speakers would be looking specifically for an article on Al Jazeera's Arabic language channel (Naturalness criteria). CMD (talk) 16:11, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support Al Jazeera is a brand name that refers to both English and Arabic channels. Even in the wiki itself, the languages are Arabic and English. Google, Twitter, and YouTube directly link to this article when they display the disclaimer on English News content, that 'Al Jazeera is funded by the Qatari government.' Besides, most of the references in this article are from Western media and are about Al Jazeera English anyway. Why we don't have any problems with that? Gsgdd (talk) 18:20, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Hi Hemiauchenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Can we rename this article to Al Jazeera Arabic and Al Jazeera English to just Al Jazeera - this way Google and other webistes correctly use `Al Jazeera` for English content. Gsgdd (talk) 18:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  This would explain the massively increased recent traffic. For an English speaking audience this article is definitely not the best target, but ultimately it's on Google to provide the correct link. I still think redirecting Al Jazeera to Al Jazeera Media Network is still a better idea, because it encompasses all of Al Jazeera's operations. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with the redirect to Al Jazeera Media Network. M.Bitton (talk) 18:31, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  I think redirecting to Al Jazeera Media Network is a mistake. Most people on google.com when they search `Al Jazeera ` are looking to know about Al Jazeera English. Google and other website will update their links when we correctly re-direct it Gsgdd (talk) 18:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  That may be true, but by landing on "Al Jazeera Media Network" they will find what they are looking for and learn something else along the way. The "about us" section of Al Jazeera's website (the .com version) seems to be about the network. M.Bitton (talk) 18:42, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  I respectfully disagree; our focus should be on assisting people in discovering what they seek. It's imperative that popular keywords direct users to the relevant products or information. For example, when users search for 'Google,' they are typically seeking information about the Google search engine, given its well-established reputation. Are we guiding them towards Alphabet, the parent company that encompasses Google? No. I believe the current proposal to redirect Al Jazeera to Al Jazeera Media Network might be misguided.Gsgdd (talk) 18:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  What does "Al Jazeera" stand for? M.Bitton (talk) 18:52, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  Al Jazeera is a brand name they use for both English, arabic channels. People on google.com are really seeking about the Al Jazeera English when they search `Al Jazeera` - Like I mentioned - even on a YouTube English Video's, Twitter etc- they link disclaimer to this article ie Al Jazeera Arabic. They don't know the difference - they look for the Keyword. To fix this its imperative to accept my proposal ie rename this article to Al Jazeera Arabic and Al Jazeera English to just Al Jazeera Gsgdd (talk) 19:11, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  Since most English speaking users are just going to search Al Jazeera, maybe that should be a disambiguation page and there the list of possible targets.Selfstudier (talk) 19:20, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  I wouldn't oppose that option. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  A disambiguation page for `Al Jazeera` with possible target is okay with me. But I still prefer my original proposal. People can always navigate to parent company OR sister sites if needed from the wiki Gsgdd (talk) 19:30, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  moving conv to Where should Al Jazeera redirect to?Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Al_Jazeera Gsgdd (talk) 01:05, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

  Redirecting Al Jazeera to Al Jazeera Media Network makes a lot of sense - that page already disambiguates all the channels, so essentially already functions as a disambiguation page. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:09, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

  Is it truly advantageous for users to sift through irrelevant information in order to find what they truly need ? Its not really disambiguation page as it has too many info - sometimes irrelevant and misleading. Gsgdd (talk) 04:23, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support. The English-language version is the primary topic on the English Wikipedia. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  You also make a good point that by default Al Jazeera should refer to the Al Jazeera English wiki. Gsgdd (talk) 21:55, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Move to Al Jazeera Arabic - whether or not this is an official name, or something of a descriptive composite, it is the simplest, most direct and most concise way of making the distinction plain, and avoids the need for the lengthy parenthetical disambiguation of the OP-proposed title. The brand is well known enough that the rest is just overkill. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Yah, Al Jazeera Arabic should be enough. Gsgdd (talk) 21:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

As I stated earlier, no contest to the proposal. Giving thought to it, It think "Al Jazeera Arabic" is used by Al Jazeera itself, so I agree the parenthetical is unnecessary. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't sure, but a further look does reveal this story tag on the English calling the Arabic version Al Jazeera Arabic, and the YouTube channel also calls itself Al Jazeera Arabic (Live), so it is used in-house, and WP:NCDAB, which prefers natural disambiguation over parenthetical disambiguates, readily applies. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:17, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support moving this article to Al Jazeera Arabic, support moving Al Jazeera English to Al Jazeera, with an appropriate hatnote linking to Al Jazeera Media Network and the new Al Jazeera Arabic, as well as the other hatnote links in the existing Al Jazeera. At random, I note that Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion has 6 "Al Jazeera" references; all are actually Al Jazeera English. Three of the 6 are wikilinked (Al Jazeera) and three are unlinked, plus there is one tweet credited to Al Jazeera English. No matter the outcome of this move decision, we need to comb through all Al Jazeera refs and change the ones that don't agree with our decision, and a follow-up project would be to explicitly link every unlinked Al Jazeera reference to the correct one. Others may say that this is not necessary, but my preference is that whenever a reasonable person could be misled or left uncertain by a reference, we should disambiguate for them before they click the link. Further thought: The Israeli newspaper Haaretz has an English website and a Hebrew website, and I've always thought it's OK to credit them the same with markup like |website=[[Haaretz]]. But that's because I believe that the parent company attempts to keep the two sites editorially similar, while Al Jazeera Arabic and English apparently diverge. Sorry if this comment is going too far afield. —Anomalocaris (talk) 07:38, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

  Procedurally, that is a good point on wikilinks. Even if there is a consensus for the base Al Jazeera to point somewhere in particular, it should at least temporarily become a disambiguation page until its wikilinks are sorted out. CMD (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Al Jazeera Arabic per above Parham wiki (talk) 19:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support this base name should target Al Jazeera Media Network as it means the whole shebang, the whole enchilada -- 65.92.247.90 (talk) 21:56, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support and allow the base page to be a WP:CONCEPTDAB on Al Jazeera Media Network (either by moving that to the base title or via a primary redirect). Oppose making Al Jazeera English primary, as it will mislead readers into thinking that "Al Jazeera" is "a globally recognized 24-hour English-language news channel". -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:19, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

  The English-language version is the primary topic on the English Wikipedia. Kingcio2 (talk) 05:36, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support moving this article to Al Jazeera Arabic, and support moving Al Jazeera English to Al Jazeera Kingcio2 (talk) 05:37, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support moving Al Jazeera to Al Jazeera Arabic and Al Jazeera Media Network to Al Jazeera. 三葉草SanYeCao · Talk 05:39, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support moving to Al Jazeera Arabic; neutral on whether Al Jazeera English or Al Jazeera Media Network should be moved to main Al Jazeera page. GnocchiFan (talk) 15:38, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Expansion section

Given that this article is specifically about the Arabic section of the organisation, should we cover the international expansion of the group into other languages, as is currently done in Al_Jazeera#Expansion? Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:52, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

The section seems a byproduct of the unclear scope of the article pre-move. It should be in the main media network article, with a very brief summary here if appropriate (eg. if expansion was linked directly with this channel's success). CMD (talk) 03:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Post-move cleanup

Following the above RM, the disambiguation page Al Jazeera now has broken links in 6,340 articles. (For comparison, the next 100 most-linked dabs have 892 bad links in total.) Any help with fixing the damage would be appreciated. Certes (talk) 18:11, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, a mass changing of all of these to Al Jazeera Media Network would probably be the easiest solution. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:50, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I've worked through the templates but left three, as it's unclear which Al Jazeera service is being broadcast in Spain, etc. (Probably English or Arabic.) That should cut the links down by a thousand or two. Certes (talk) 19:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Let's adopt a cautious approach and monitor the situation. It's possible that people will step in to edit and refine it. I believe that implementing a widespread alteration to Al Jazeera Media Network is not the best approach. Gsgdd (talk) 08:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

The templates I looked at were divided fairly equally between Network, Arabic, English and uncertain. We may need subject experts rather than leaving it for the long-suffering litter-pickers. Certes (talk) 15:49, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I've started on this, and have been linking many of the "refs" to Al Jazeera English, as they are references/news reports from https://www.aljazeera.com. Others can be linked to the overall media network. Natg 19 (talk) 01:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

For example, I linked this to Al Jazeera English:

<ref>{{Cite news |date=2022-04-02 |title=Almost 300 buried in mass grave in Bucha, near Kyiv: Mayor |language=en |work=[[Al Jazeera English|Al Jazeera]] |url=https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/2/almost-300-buried-in-mass-grave-in-bucha-near-kyiv-mayor |access-date=2022-04-03}}</ref> Natg 19 (talk) 01:51, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Hamas

https://e.walla.co.il/item/3622819 He said they were at hospital. He did not let him speak. 2.55.185.80 (talk) 17:43, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

There is a Discussion going on to challenge aljazeera is a reliable source or not at the WP:RSN Al Jazeera. Gsgdd (talk) 22:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)