Talk:Alaçam Population Exchange Museum

Warring

An editor keeps deleting the following paragraph." According to the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923, which was signed after the Turkish War of Independence, the Moslem population of Greece (except West Thrace) and the Greek Orthodox population of Turkey (except İstanbul and certain islands) were exhanged. This exchange was compulsory and caused distress among the mübadils." The rationale is that the paragraph is propoganda. The paragraph explains the subject of the museum only. Where is the propoganda ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:58, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

It is a false claim: the Treaty of Lausanne had nothing to do with the "population exchange". See the linked Population exchange between Greece and Turkey article. The agreement was a different treaty between Greece and Turkey - this one, the Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations, and the agreement was also an after-the-event thing (by the time of its signing Turkey had already deported almost all its ethnic Greek citizens). There is not one word in the Lausanne treaty that requires population exchanges or expulsions. The false claim is propaganda because the falsehood is presented by the Republic of Turkey as a way for Turkey to deny its own genocidal actions. Turkey deceptively presents its post-WW1 expulsion of its Greek Christian population (an act widely recognized as being a genocide) as being a requirement of the Treaty of Lausanne which it was forced to sign as a defeated party at the end of WW1. Your cited source" [1] is an example of the ongoing propaganda usage in Turkey. I am not questioning your good faith or intentions here, but I see this issue as arising because of your use of unsuitable online Turkish sources, an issue I have mentioned to you before. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:02, 25 January 2017 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

Why are you so prejudiced ? This agreement was a protocol within the scope of treaty of Lausanne. It was signed by the Turkish and Greek delegation in Laussanne. (Earlier, there was a similar agreement between Bulgaria and Greece.) It has nothing to do with genocide. The agreement was a religion based agreement. (Among other things, Muslim Greeks to Turkey and Christian Turks to Greece) You may criticize this agreement (Well I do.) But this is a fact and you may check it in other sources. The museum is a kind of memorial of this sad event. How come you define it as a propoganda ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 17:31, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

It had NOTHING to do with the Treaty of Lausanne. Not "a part of", not a "protocol" of, not "within the scope of", not "according to", or any other weasel. You have no sources for this Turkish-invented propaganda claim except your non-RS online Turkish source. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:45, 25 January 2017 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

You have not added anything more, so I have again deleted the offending content. It is derived from a non-RS source giving unsourced opinions that differ from established academic opinion. The last time we went through this (for claims about Kozan castle) I raised a RS noticeboard discussion and there was agreement with my position and you didn't bother defending your source (though I invited you to the discussion). For that issue, it was felt that state-derived sources from Turkey cannot be considered RS when dealing with content related to Turkey's WW1-period and immediate post-WW1 period history connected to its treatment of its minorities. The same issues apply here I think, so I am guided by the previous RS noticeboard discussion. If you want to defend your source and its claims, please raise the issue at the RS noticeboard. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:04, 31 January 2017 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

What do you mean ? Population exchange is a very well known fact as you may have seen in the relevant articles in WP. The museum is a kind of memorial museum and the event is explained by the following two sentences. "According to the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923, which was signed after the Turkish War of Independence, the Moslem population of Greece (except West Thrace) and the Greek Orthodox population of Turkey (except İstanbul and certain islands) were exchanged. This exchange was compulsory and caused distress among the mübadils". Please be frank and tell me exactly which part of this paragraph you object . The exchange ? the scope of exchange ? the date and place of the agreement ? the distress it caused ? If you logically show me which part of the paragraph is incorrect I'd gladly correct it. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 18:46, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

What do you mean by "according to"? Are you citing the Treaty of Lausanne as a reference for the content that says there was an "exchange" of populations? Or are you claiming that this exchange of populations was undertaken according to the Treaty of Lausanne. (i.e. under its treaty obligations). If the latter, it is a false claim. If the former, there are more suitable sources available - and sources are usually cited in footnotes, not in article body text. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:53, 1 February 2017 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

What is the problem ? Don't you believe an exchange of population took place between Turkey ad Greece? or are you equivocating ? Anyway, if you seriously want a further proof for an event affecting more than 2 million people please see the Encyclopaedia Britannica Expo 70 ed. In Vol.22, p.388. under heading Treaty of Laussane it reads; "exchange of populations, the Greeks of western Anatolia migrating to Greece and ... Turks from Greece going to Western Anatolia."Also in Vol 10 p.820 it reads. "The war with Turkey was liquidated by the treaty of Laussane...An agreement for the compulsory exchange of Muslim and Orthodox populations between Greece and Turkey under the supervision of League of nations. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 18:54, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

So far I have been assuming good faith and that, courtesy of Turkish education, you just have the some ignorance and myths about historical events that almost everyone in Turkey has. But your persistence here is making that more difficult. What is your problem? Are you consciously wanting Turkish genocide denialist propaganda? Turkey seems to never want to come to terms with its past or current problems or mistakes or crimes, so dreams up international actions or conspiracies to excuse itself. Here, it tries to excuse itself for the genocide committed against its Greek citizens by claiming that the expulsions of those Greeks was part of an imposed international Treaty (Lausanne) that Turkey was forced to comply with, rather than the truth, that it was a completely Turkish decision to expel those people, the final act of a long process of genocide against all its non-Muslim citizens. The actual agreement was NOT the Treaty of Lausanne, it was an agreement agreed between and signed between Turkey and Greece. Please stop trying to insert false claims about the Treaty of Lausanne into this article. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:26, 1 February 2017 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

Please don't change the scope of this discussion. Is the exchange a fact ? Yes. If you are still skeptical about the event, please see Eleftherios Venizelos) (It was mentioned in tens of other articles anyway.) I only added two sentences explaining the type of museum. What is wrong with it ? As for the exchange yes it was a tragedy for those involved. But this is an encyclopedia and we are not going to censor the event. (After all tragedies such as battles and earthquakes are mentioned in WP) Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:50, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

You are refusing to respond to my point (a fact just emphasized by your refusal to indent) by inventing spurious issues. Not a single word I have written here could in any way be construed as me saying the population expulsions did not take place. It is you that wants to insert the falsehood that those expulsions were initiated by, or occurred as a result of, the Treaty of Lausanne. The Lausanne Convention was NOT the Treaty of Lausanne. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:05, 2 February 2017 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

The Treaty of Laussane was signed by many countries including for example Japan . The treaty was about the general concepts. The bilateral issues however were the subject of separate protocols between two countries. The protocols were the attachments of the main treaty (see the 6th convention in [2]. In fact the 14th article of the main treaty about the minorities mentions the population exchange between Turkey and Greece. See [3]) That's why I have written "within the concept of the treaty". If the reason of your opposition is only the word treaty I'd gladly change the word treaty to convention. If you still insist warring I'll reluctantly report you to the admins. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:01, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

You still appear to be deceiving yourself that the Lausanne Convention was the Lausanne Treaty, and that the Lausanne Treaty was responsible for or required the population exchanges. The Convention is mentioned in the Lausanne Treaty (as "agreements which have been, or may be, concluded between Greece and Turkey"), but a mention, an acknowledgement of its existence, is not the same as "within the concept of the treaty" (or any of the other attempted wordings such as "according to"). It was Turkey that expelled almost all of its Christian Greek population, then, in order to avoid the issue of the protection and the return of refugees being raised in the Lausanne Treaty (like it was in the Sevres Treaty), and to avoid a war with Greece over it (which an impoverished Greece also wanted to avoid), the Lausanne Convention, a private treaty negotiated between Greece and Turkey and which did not involve third parties, was put together as an almost-after-the-event treaty that turned refugees into permanent migrants (or as Turkey officially called them "mübadil") without a right to ever return to their homelands. Its effect beyond that enforced change of citizenship status was the expulsion of all of the remaining Greeks in Turkey outside of Constantinople, and most of the Turks in Greece. But, to this day, Turkey tries to wash its hands of that genocidal "exchange" agreement and blame it on others (are you trying to even implicate Japan?) Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:27, 3 February 2017 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.