Talk:Alan Gottlieb

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Please do not remove factual information. Policy is ask for a source if you think something is un-sourced, and to move it to this talk page. FTR Calibas, the same articles you cite back up my prior edit. Read the whole source before you make snap judgments. Further, this is a bio on a living person, so be careful to adhere to wikipedia's slander and libel policies. Lastly, I am in the progress of writing major enhancements to this article, so I would greatly appreciate it if you would give me a couple of days to do so before you start a revision war. Thanks. Mark Taff

Here's direct quotes from the articles:

"A convicted felon. In 1984, Gottlieb pleaded guilty to underpaying income tax returns by $17,000 and served ten months in Federal prison"

"In 1984, Gottlieb pleaded guilty to evading federal income taxes for 1977 and went to prison for about one year. As a convicted felon, Gottlieb was no longer legally able to own firearms. But he regained those rights through a federal government program which allowed felons to apply for "relief" from the "disability" of being unable to own weapons"

Plz show me where it says he only spent 8 months in jail and where it says his full civil rights were restored. I look forward to seeing your grand revision but I'm afraid I may have to change it if it doesn't adhere to a neutral pov and cite references. --Calibas 04:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Calibas -- You are violating the Wikipedia policy on biographies of living persons by using unreliable and inaccurate sources to libel a living person. Your original libelous inaccuracies were corrected after verifying their error with Alan Gottlieb himself. If you persist in posting libelous content from inaccurate sources, after we have explicitly warned you that it is inaccurate and libelous, we shall have to take further action. FTR, the accurate statement I put in is a neutral pov; it states just the facts, without any kind of spin. -- Mark Taff

I apoligize for what I wrote, I was not aware it was libel. Alan Gottlieb is a rich and powerful man, I wonder why he lets such things be published about him. Plus, if the articles are inaccurate and libelous isn't that where you got most of your info? You may have forgotten that Wikipedia doesn't allow original research, i.e. speaking with Alan Gottlieb. If you fail to provide references I may have to delete facts that can't be backed up.

You also seem to have forgotten to mention the he's a felon in your article, and you don't bring up the Wise Use movement at all. Please remember to include these things in your revision.--Calibas 03:32, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Calibas -- Your bias is showing. ;-) As for the accuracy of the articles referenced, just because one fact in an article is incorrect doesn't mean that all the facts in the article are incorrect. As for the original research bit, please actually *read* the wp policies on biographies of living persons and libel. They state that 1)subjects of the bio are to be given the benefit of the doubt as to info in their bios as it relates to potential libel, and 2)they may provide what would otherwise be banned under "no original research" if the information is not overly self-aggrandizing. Also note that providing a citation for a false statement is no defense for a claim of libel. If a statement is libelous, it doesn't matter if someone else said it first, you are still liable. As for the felon bit, the article does mention that he was convicted and served time in the work release program. The statement is far more accurate and informative than your original sentence. I am not opposed to having information that reflects poorly on Alan in the article, so long as it is written in a neutral fashion, and it is accurate and truthful. Further, it is clearly bias on your part to have added that statement in the first place, in order to make the article seem negative overall, without making any effort to write about other facts, such as his authorship, education, other organizations, etc.

"...reverting someone who is trying to remove libel about themselves is a horribly stupid thing to do." --Jimmy Wales

As for adding other info to the article, I would absolutely like to mention his role in wise use, and to note how some political opponents nickname him "the merchant of fear" after the article in an effort to cast him in a bad light. Also, a section about controversies that would link to the controversy articles for wise use/environmentalism, and pro/anti-gun, etc. I would also like to add a lot more to the personal section, but that is hard to do without both doing original research and plagiarizing the merchant of fear article.

If you can keep your bias in check, I would very much appreciate it if you would help write this article. I have already added quite a bit, and I don't want to be the only author. I believe wikipedia articles benefit overall from a multitude of authors, even if that does make for a rocky road of article development. Peace. Marktaff 20:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)