Talk:Alan M. Steinman

Steinman's Status as USCG Member

User:Neovu79 claims, in an edit summary: "Steinman was not in the Coast Guard." Consequently, last October, Neovu79 removed the US Coast Guard from the "branch" entry in the military person infobox (diff).

I restored it and explained: "The instructions for the template's 'branch' parameter refer to 'the service branch ... the person was a part of'. Steinman was a 'part' of the USCG and is pictured in the article in CG uniform. Article text makes it clear he was commissioned by USPHS and assigned to the USCG." (diff). Neuvo79 promptly reverted my edit (diff).

Last May, Neovu79 decided that the article does not belong in the "United States Coast Guard personnel" category (diff). I restored the category onn July 19, 2021, and Neovu79 promptly reverted my edit (diff).

Rear Admiral Steinman was not commissioned by the US Coast Guard and the article has never indicated otherwise. However, reliable sources indicate he was part of the personnel of the US Coast Guard. The New York Times, for example, identifies him as "Rear Adm. Alan M. Steinman of the Coast Guard" and "Admiral Steinman, who was the surgeon general of the Coast Guard before he retired in 1997". Moreover, the Military Times identifies him as "as a U.S. Coast Guard Rear Admiral" and has published his Coast Guard Distinguished Service Medal citation which begins: "The President of the United States of America takes pleasure in presenting the Coast Guard Distinguished Service Medal to Rear Admiral Alan M. Steinman, United States Coast Guard, for exceptionally meritorious and distinguished service in a position of great responsibility to the Government of the United States as Director of Health and Safety, U.S. Coast Guard Headquarters, from July 1993 to July 1997."

I propose to restore the USCG as one of his branches in the military person infobox, restore the Coast Guard personnel category, and make any changes to the text consistent with his status as a member of the US Coast Guard. --Mox La Push (talk) 02:57, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Oppose As a more reliable source from the Public Heath Service Commissioned Corps official Facebook page claims him as a PHS officer. Neovu79 (talk) 03:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Reply Steinman was both a USCG and USPHS service member and the article should reflect that. The USPHS service Facebook page is not more reliable than the Presidential citation for Steinman's Distinguished Service Medal. --Mox La Push (talk) 03:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Reply Incorrect, that Facebook page is an official government updated page and is considered reliable as even news articles will use that media source as a quote. Second, the Coast Guard Distinguished Service Medal can be award to anyone serving in one of the Uniformed services of the United States so long as they distinguish themselves while working with the Coast Guard. Third MilitaryTimes.com is known to not be a reliable source. Neovu79 (talk) 03:14, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, that New York Times article was written when most people have never even heard of the United States Public Health Service Commissioned Corps. My guess is that when they interviewed Steinman for the article, they saw him in a Coast Guard uniform and assumed that he was in the Coast Guard. Officers in the Public Health Service were and still are, not known to boast the fact that they are commissioned officers of a service that is not part of the military. Neovu79 (talk) 03:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

This is a clear application of WP:V: Wikipedia's "content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of editors." So, per the New York Times and Military Times, this article should say that Steinman was a part of the Coast Guard. If a reliable source emerges that states otherwise, this article should note the discrepancy in the sources. (That Facebook post is a primary source and we can't make interpretations from them.) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 03:34, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Reply Okay then how about this Washington Post article that states that Alan M. Steinman, a former U.S. Coast Guard director of health and safety and retired rear admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service Commissioned Corps. Also, this Washington Post opinion article is more recent and states that exact same thing. Neovu79 (talk) 03:45, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

And here is another source and here. I think I've made my argument compelling at this point. Neovu79 (talk) 03:53, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

The Denver Post doesn't actually specify what branch Steinman served in, and he described himself as a member of both services. That said, I think there's enough here to need to add the source discrepancy to the article in a few sentences or a footnote. I would also advise adding both the Coast Guard and the USPHS to the infobox and the categories. (First, because of the discrepancy, and second because he very obviously worked with the Coast Guard for many years no matter who signed his paychecks, so readers would likely expect both to appear.) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 04:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Actually, it was the USPHS that signed his checks, not the Coast Guard. That's like saying a Navy corpsman is being paid by the Marines when they are working in a Marine platoon as their corpsman, or the Chaplain of the United States Marine Corps who is a Navy officer is being paid by the Marine Corps. Also it means you would have to do that for every PHS officer who serves with the Coast Guard as the Coast Guard does not employee a uniformed medical corps. The Coast Guard's Chief Medical Officer which Steinman last served in uniform as, is by law (42 U.S.C. § 207), filled by a PHS officer not a Coast Guard officer, for example the Coast Guard's current chief medical officer. Also officers like the Chaplain of the United States Coast Guard who is a U.S. Navy officer, needs to be amended. The PHS are the primary service that provides medical officers for the Coast Guard. Articles like RADM Erica Schwartz would also need to amended. Neovu79 (talk) 04:35, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I wanted to note that I mis-read Ed's statement of no matter who signed his paychecks so I wanted to acknowledge that mistake. Neovu79 (talk) 13:30, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Was just gonna use the Navy-personnel-serving-with-Marines analogy. If there is no dispute that he was a USPHS officer, then that should be the agency primarily used. In the infobox, the branch should be USPHS, but perhaps a note, in brackets, such as: "(was seconded to the USCG for x years as a Rear Admiral)" could be added? This is just a suggested compromise. Of course, this should all be clearly explained in the article body, so people who come here with the idea that he was a USCG officer, (from poorly written bios in newspapers), can come away with a better, and correct, understanding of his military service. While I agree with Mox La Push's pov that Steinman's time with the CG may be significant and worthy of mention, Neovu79 is correct that he should be clearly identified as USPHS, and the distinction between the services, and his time with each, should be clearly explained. (JMHO) - wolf 10:43, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I would recommend adding his association with the Coast Guard in the the main body of the article, and not in the Infobox. Representing him as a member of the Coast Guard in the Infobox, is not only misleading, but not factually correct. The line in the Infobox says "Service/Branch", not "service/branch worked for" or "service/branch worked with" or service/branch associated with". A reasonable person would assume that "Service/Branch" means what uniformed service he was in, not worked for. Neovu79 (talk) 13:30, 20 July 2021 (UTC)