Talk:Albania/Archive 8

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Albanian census map

This map is based on nothing more than the Albanian census, so as such it is POV. Second, the Albanian government has a history of suppressing minority numbers (easily sourced), and is not WP:RS. Third, the census was boycotted by minorities, which makes any maps based on it worthless. And lastly, the map does not show important minority areas like Himara. As such, it needs to go. Athenean (talk) 00:28, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi Khirurg. Not sure if your a new editor or a returning one after a long absence. Its a map of the Albanian census and in the article it refers to it being Albanian state's point of view and also the article contains info about that being problematic. The Greek state has census data that does not count linguistic minorities and has been noted in scholarship. That data however has been used in Wikipedia. If we uses your rationale, then that stuff goes too as there is Western scholarship for example on the ethnic Macedonian community for instance that could fill much of the void etc etc.Resnjari (talk) 07:30, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Actually the map of the 2011 census is just a map of the "2011 census". What's important here is that it is a ethnographic reflection/depiction since it shows the results of a highly despited census. Apart from Himara, even regions that have recognised by the Albanian government non-Albanian majorities (Aliko for example) appear as predominantly Albanian. This map will be fine for the corrsepondent section of "Demographics of Albania", but it's not hepfull for this article (It's like having a similar map of the disbuted census of the R.o.Mac. in the country article too). Alexikoua (talk) 09:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

The map is done according to district and not individual villages. The district where the Greek village Aliko is located is highlighted as having an Albanian plurality (due to the big Albanian village of Ksmail) still meaning other ethnicities are there. A similar thing in reverse with a nearby district that is coloured Greek due to some Greek villages being there but has villages that are Orthodox Albanian: Mursi, Sopik, Xarra, or Muslim Albanian, i.e Vrina etc and all get coloured as Greek (the majority population of the district). Your map is not organised by district. On Macedonia, the census of Macedonia was accepted by all sides in 2002. Nationalist Albanian circles have mainly voiced disquiet. Those idiots don't count. A Le Monde map also exists that has the interpretation of the demographics of Macedonia showing Ohrid a mainly Macedonian city as Albanian (wrong, dead wrong, only 2-3,000 albs), incorrectly shows the eastern coast of lake Ohrid and that half the Struga Drimkol area as Albanian (is Macedonian), all of Macedonian Prespa (and Greek Prespa) as Albanian when there are only a few Albanian villages on the eastern lakeside , omits concentrated Albanian settlement of the Karshiaka mountainous region below Skopje depicting it as Macedonian.[1]. That's one of the reasons why i call into question Le Monde maps as reliable.Resnjari (talk) 09:33, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I wonder what do you mean my map is not organized by district? I assume you mean L. Diplomatique's map. Aliko is a representative case of why the data of this census are highly disputed (the argument that the only Albanian village of the Aliko outnumbers all the reast is wp:OR), and this is stated by several UN, EU and other international organizations (as well as wp:ACADEMIC and SENCODARY). If this map stays its caption should strees that this census was disputed (the text already states that).Alexikoua (talk) 15:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I am fine with that as that is fact. On Aliko Kallivretkis' data bears that out. Its a small district with a few villages of which Ksmail is the biggest. Anyway on your map, what are the wp:ACADEMIC and SECONDARY sources to back the L. Diplomatique map (as i gave you a reply in my above posts with sources and page numbers)?Resnjari (talk) 15:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

It's interesting, at Dance of Osman Taka, you have been presented with evidence that the source you are using is erroneous, yet you keep repeating yourself that your source is reliable. Here, you have been presented with evidence that the Albanian government census has been boycotted by minorities, and yet you insist on using it. Khirurg (talk) 17:44, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Kind of wondering are you a new editor or returning one since you seem to be experienced. You sound familiar like someone from the past. In any case I refer you to the policy: WP:HOUNDING as you have not participated in that discussion. At the Osman Taka page the sources say what they say i have gone by them. And those sources don't contradict the other sources brought forth that where claimed to disavow the previous ones. If anything they make my point than the previous ones. On this, I accept the census was problematic as the Albanian government did not allow people to fully declare themselves. It was in relation to mainly Vlachs and Orthodox Albanians of which a sizable amount who have pro-Greek sentiments. The census map is the government view and an editor addressed the matter by placing a disclaimer [2] which i have no qualms about. Many Balkan censuses have issues like the Greek one which does not allow ethnic Turks to declare themselves as such and forces people to only declare as Muslims. Yet Greek government numbers are cited in Wiki articles citing those issues with a disclaimer.Resnjari (talk) 19:15, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

(unindent) No, the Albanian census map is completely worthless, disclaimer or not. If you feel hounded, there's always ANI. Khirurg (talk) 21:26, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

The Albanian census results might be worthless to you (others may say the same thing of Greek numbers), but is the state's view. I am not disputing, nor others here that it was problematic and disputed. On the other matter it was in relation to making comments about Osman Taka out of the blue when you have not participated in that discussion or Wikipedia in general for more than a month. I also was not sure if you were a returning editor or not until i clicked your main Wiki page.Resnjari (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I do not know if you have realized this, but referring solely on the official census or the unofficial estimations is the wrong way to go. The official census has been problematic, and the unofficial estimes are just that - estimes. Nothing more. Albania's census by no means can be trusted and considered a reliable source of pop information, because the censuses in the country have been very problematic since the communist era. And it is not me who says this, but the human rights organizations and especially the Council of Europe which regarded the 2011 Albanian census as unreliable and inaccurate. I don't know if you are aware of that, but as a matter of fact, Albania is the only European country which in the latest census, still fined its citizens to pay leva for declaring a different nationality - no other country ever does that in Europe, not even Turkey or Bosnia and Herzegovina, where problems with their censuses have been reported.

My position is that the 2011 Albanian census should be taken with a grain of salt and rather have both sources - both official and unofficial ones from abroad - referenced for a more complete picture of the situation in the country. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:35, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I would be the first to say that using Albanian census data for the type of map that Alexikoua has made or similar should not be done. Apart from the Albanian government placing suppression orders (i.e a fine for people declaring some other identity other than the Alb. government deemed to be 'not correct'. The fines where done in relation to Vlachs and Orthodox Albanians and concerns that some number will declare as Greeks.), some ethno-linguistic communities also declared themselves Albanians in the census while on a day to day basis they have other ethnic/linguistic identities too. Cases in point are the region of Golloborda and the large Muslim Macedonian speaking population there, the Gorani of the Albanian Gora area, the Podgoricani, Serbian/Montenegrin speaking Muslims of the Vraka area, the Bosniaks of the Shijak region etc etc. Studies exist whereby scholars have gone to settlements spent much time with the people and cited the areas they inhabited (like Thede Kahl's extensive survey of Vlachs Kallivretakis on the Greeks in Albania, etc). Even the UN got in on the gig by doing a massive study of the Romani. In some countries, Balkan censuses are problematic. Albania, Kosovo, Greece, Turkey, Bosnia etc. The Albanian census map is the official position of the Albanian government. The article is about Albania after all. Throughout wiki government numbers are used and if problematic it is also cited with a disclaimer offered as was done by Alexikoua of which i have no qualms about. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:06, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

It seems that as an editor you are failing terribly bad to understand the basic difference between facts and opinions, like how you have done in the Cham Albanians and dance articles. Wikipedia does not rely on editorial opinions but on facts and only facts. You are justifying the fines the Albanian government imposed on its minorities (!) as if they can be justified and explained, and you are equalizing EU member state censuses such as Greece's (which international organizations such as UN and Council of Europe found reliable and valid) with the problematic ones of non-EU member countries (!) such as Albania's, and you are expecting us to sit and listen to you? Your opinions are just that: opinions. I will prefer the position of international and intergovernmental organizations on this matter, not your opinion. And if you ever try to remove the pop estimes and replace them with unreliable and disputed censuses which the international organizations found riddled with serious problems, your edits will simply be reverted. Now if you excuse me, I am not interested to ever understand the reasons the Albanian government resorted to such shameful practices of finining its own citizens, a practice which today is seen only outside of Europe, in dictatorships of Africa and Asia. -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:40, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

This kind of wording like: "And if you ever try to remove the pop estimes and replace them with unreliable and disputed censuses" are more on the intimidation and threats side. Once again a reminder of the Wiki policies when interacting with other editors regarding being wp:civil and wp:harass. On the Albanian census i outlined my views. On other articles my commentary regarding the Chams may not be to your liking (as you have expressed the view of "traitorous" [3]) and frankly i don't care about your personal views of my abilities to "understand the basic difference between facts and opinions". One could say that of certain editors on Wiki. Facts when it suits them, but fiction when it does not. As i have told many a Greek editor those are your personal reflections which Wikipedia policies states have no place here regarding a editor. Only content and policy regarding content are the main issues going into a article. As for Greece's census being acceptable, please the human rights watch reports etc, not to mention scholarly critique such as on the Turks being denied to freely express themselves as Turks is one example. Just because a country is in the EU does not mean they live up to all of the rules or standards. Greece showed this quite prominently with its financial system collapsing (another example).Resnjari (talk) 11:29, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

If my memory does not fail me, the other editor have warned you that manipulation of sources goes against Wikipedia's policies, but it seems you are doing it again now, this time with manipulation of... facts? Please. Not the facts too. This is too much and only shows how your arguments lack credibility.

if what you are trying to do is to convince me, then I am afraid this isn't working. I myself have participated in the Census progress in two different countries, both Greece and abroad, and I know beforehand about these matters. From experience I can tell how your arguments are problematic are, at best. You are claiming that: 1) Greece has denied the Turks their right to self-determination in the Greek census, and 2) the human right reports are about the Greek census, right? Well, sorry to say this, but you are completely wrong. If I didn't knew you better, I could say that certainly you are out of place in regards to the Censuses. But this does not help but raise concerns about whether you are really in position of contributing positively to the (problematic thus far) discussion regarding the Albanian Census, at least without making false claims and assumptions from which this discussion has suffered already due to lack of credible and valid arguments.

Let me correct you regarding the Greek census and the Turks of Thrace: first of all, the human right reports are not about the Greek census. Are about the self-determination of a group of people and their demand to be granted minority rights based on that. Period. The demands of the Turks of Thrace to be recognized with ethnic criteria instead of religious, should not be confused with the Greek census at all. In the Greek Census, ethnicity is not taken in account, only religion is, much like in most of the European Union member states. For example, in Italy, where an Albanian diaspora thrives, the Censuses do not inquire about race or ethnicity, and yet, this has nothing to do with Italy "trying to suppress ethnic self-determination of Albanians living in there" as you or any misinformed editors could probably assume. The censuses in the EU member states, including Greece and Italy, are conducted with the best practices and methodologies and are in accordance with Eurostat's standards and with the monitoring of international organizations and by no means can be considered problematic or unreliable. Nor the European governments fine the subjects like Albania does.

Confusing the Turkish demands for recognition based on ethnicity have nothing to do with Censuses. Since Greece follows a policy of treating all the communities currently living in its territory regardless of their ethnicity, it little matters for the state. All people of different communities in Greece are treated as Greek citizens. Even the migrants, as long as they have legal papers, have undertook the Greek education and have lived many years in the country. As citizens, everyone in Greece pays equal taxes to the state, regardless of ethnicity, race, religion or sexual orientation. Be them Albanians, Bulgarians, Turks, Serbians, Egyptians, Italians, Germans and Romanians, or even Gays and Muslims and Jews and Polytheists. Nothing more, nothing less. Now that certain ethnic groups such as some Turks want to be formally recognized as minorities, is a completely different thing and whether this can be achieved or not, falls within each state's discretion.

I highly recommend that you update yourself about these matters before making more false claims and mistakes which do not help in our discussion here; only are derailing it. if can you say anything better or more useful regarding the Albanian census, I will be glad to hear it, but if your goal here is to explain or justify the problematic Albanian censuses or equalize it with the census of western countries, then you are wasting, not just my time, but yours and everyone's here. The Albanian census and the estimes are both present on the page, and that is the best you can have. -- SILENTRESIDENT 13:52, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I have done census work in the country i live so i know the processes too. It still does not take away that in Greece a ethnic Turk cannot declare as a Turk, but only as a Muslim. Those human rights reports do refer to that issue and scholars who look at those issues. You also ay that ethnic identity is not concern of Greece and small ethno-linguistic communities who want to express that "falls within each state's discretion. (The same can be said of Albania's "discretion".)" The Turks demands for recongition has also to do with the census. How many from the Muslim community see themselves that way etc. In Albania everyone is regarded as equal citizens as per the constitution. The state does not want to count ethnicity numbers while outside powers and some communities internally have placed pressure on them, like the Turks do in Greece. As for "manipulation of the sources", please, that editor has examples of that if we want to go down that road. Many don't like me editing at all on Wikipedia. Thing is my account is older than yours, actually most of you (almost 10 years soon too). Been here, still will be here.Resnjari (talk) 14:09, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

You are saying you have participated in a Census, yet you comments reflect a big failure to understand what censuses really are for. Censuses are not conducted for ethnic reasons or for race reasons. The censuses are conducted for national reasons. Census are a tool critical in collecting population data necessary for the better and more effective governance of a state in the fields of economy, agriculture, employment, education, religion and healthcare. You do not conduct census for ethnic reasons, and certainly you do not need a census to grant human rights to the people. The gays or the black people do not need a census for their freedoms to be respected. To claim that a Turk can only be Turk when a Census allows him so, is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. If the Turks could have their rights respected, is a matter of the Greek state's policies towards them, not a matter of... censuses.

Furthermore, I do not know why Albania chose to permit declaration of ethnic origin in its 2011 census, but it could been much better for the Albanian state to just leave this option out than to ask the Albanian citizens for their ethnicity and then fine them if their answers are not what the Albanian authorities expected or wanted. This is just mere my opinion, but I guess Albania, unlike Italy, Greece and Turkey, is bound by international treaties to recognize ethnic minorities on its soil. Greece and Turkey on the other hand are bound to recognize and protect religious ones, as agreed in the Lausanne Treaty, which Greece respected fully and to the letter, while Turkey repeatedly has violated, which resulted to the two countries showing contradictory results on the population figures in their their latest censuses: according to the 2011 Greek census, the Muslim minority of Greece not only is still alive today but also has grown in numbers (see Muslim minority of Greece) while the Christian minority of Turkey not only didn't grew in numbers, but shrank too much that nowadays became almost extinct (see Istanbul Pogrom and Greeks in Turkey). Like I said: minorities are a matter of state policies regarding them, and not censuses. (and no, it is not the Turkish census that made Turkey the only country in Europe with less than 1% of its total population Christian, but the Turkish policies). Censuses are meant only to provide the state with an image of the population and its categories that interest the state in its policy-making. You should have knew that already if you really participated in a Census. Now if you excuse me, there is nothing more for me to say here, and certainly got better things to do than to talk about censuses and human rights all day. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:10, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree that censuses are for the reasons outlined. Data on language end ethnicity are gathered by some governments whereby there is schooling or the need for public services to be rendered in another language. Turks want to be counted as Turks in Greece because that category is not a religious one. By counting them as Muslims, funding and services go toward (not always for) religious issues (schooling is covered) but not all issues. Its also a symbolic matter that the state recognises them in the designation they see themselves. Greece after all is a EU country with different standards to the others. Turkey's censuses are damned since well the beginning. The Kemalists have been hell bent on making everyone Turk and the AKP has pushed back on that a bit since they have been in power. The Kemalist structure though remains and until that dangerous tussle for power resolves itself one should not hold their breath for improvements any time soon. In Albania, most were against it especially counting religion. Berisha wanted it. He structured the census for declarations to be of any type. He was in a coalition with the PDIU and they said it was incumbent for him to impose a fine to prevent certain types of declarations otherwise they would let his government collapse. Berisha opposed for a while and then backed down.Resnjari (talk) 15:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree that not all Turks define themselves as Muslims. However those who don't, will have to live like every other normal citizen in Greece: learn the Greek language, serve the Greek army, pay the taxes to the state, and enjoy all services that the other citizens do - Greeks, Albanians, Italians, Jews, Egyptians, Bulgarians, Gays, Lesbians, etc, already do. There can not be a special treatment for people regarding their ethnicity in Greece, otherwise political equality ceases to exist. What I am saying is obvious.

Secular Turks in Greece can not demand more rights than the Greek commonsfolk have, or the Turks in Turkey have, or the Turks in Germany have. But sure the Greek state should grant them the freedom to form Turkish unions, if that is not a threat to the state's interests (which frankly I read somewhere that it is perceived as such).

In all case, the Turks in Greece can only enjoy the same rights that the commonsfolk do. Same for everyone else. For example, in Germany (which hosts a large Turkish community in its soil - around 3.000.000 Turks or German-born Turks, making it as big as Albania in terms of population size), the Turkish citizens and migrants do not enjoy any special rights nor enjoy minority status and can only have the same rights as the rest of the commonsfolk does. Citizenship grants you equal rights and you don't have to belong in a minority for you to enjoy your rights in a modern European society, after all, unless you uphold traditions and norms that differ variably from the standard ones and these a require different law appliance (i.e. the Muslim Minority of Thrace).

You may not know it, but the religious minority of Thrace is really religious - not only in terms of worshiping in mosques, but also in terms of law appliance - the Greek Thrace in fact maintains Sharia Law which makes it the only EU territory where the Sharia Law is permitted and is still in effect nowadays. Unbelievable, heh? I am sure you didn't knew that. While the Muslims living in Albania, Kosovo, Turkey and even Germany do not have such elevated rights, in Greek Thrace, the Turks, the Pomaks and the Roma, enjoy these special privileges stemming from the Lausanne Treaty, under the auspices of which, the Greek Courts recognize the privilege to the Muftis of Thrace to rule divorces and other aspects of daily life in accordance with the Sharia. I am very glad that Greece is nowadays an example where European laws and Sharia supplement each other, allowing Greek Thrace to be one of the rarest European places where Muslims can live by the Sharia laws and generally enjoy more rights than the Muslims in any other European countries. But still this does not mean that the rights of the Turks overall are fully respected, especially the ones of atheist Turks who do not want a religious way of life but a secular one, including the right to form unions and organizations that bear the term "Turkish" on their official names; an issue that appears to be very sensitive for the Greek state given its problems with neighbor Turkey. My position is that Greece should ignore Turkey and not use Turkey as an excuse for keeping itself far away from the rest of the Western World in regards to the freedom of self-determination. Turkey has made her bad choices but I want Greece to keep a different course on this than follow Turkey's poor records. -- SILENTRESIDENT 16:03, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to remind all my fellow editors that Wikipedia in general, and talk pages in particular are not a discussion forum. See WP:TALK:

The purpose of an article's talk page (accessible via the talk or discussion tab) is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject.

Moreover, Wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources, not personal knowledge. Please try to focus on improving the article rather than going off on interesting political discussions. --Macrakis (talk) 17:08, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 March 2017

Under "International Rankings", it should be "Literacy Rate 2011", not "Literay Rate 2011". 104.193.105.215 (talk) 03:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Create an account, then you don't have resort to asking permission and you can edit as long as its within the guidelines/rules.Resnjari (talk) 07:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Done Thank-you for pointing that out! regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 09:03, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

War editing & Pov Pushing regarding the acceptance of the census by the Sunni muslim community

The editor is bringing a dubious source which is citing a random person with the surname Jazexhi , it simply is unreliable , especially when considering the fact that the person cited is accusing the muslim community for accepting the census results in this article. Gjirokastra15 (talk) 01:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Gjirokastra15, can you point out exactly when in the article it says that the official organnisation of Sunni Islam in Albania, the Muslim Community of Albania (Komuniteti Mysliman i Shqipërisë) accepts the census results because i don't see this. I see much about Muslim adherents which is different. And on the community it says "Por Komuniteti Musliman, i cili kontrollohet nga Berisha dhe sejmenët e tij, mesa unë kam parë, nuk po reagon si duhet. Ndoshta ata janë gëzuar pse muslimanët dolën 57% e popullisë, pse ndoshta prisnin të ishin më pak." Jazexhi is just saying they have not responded properly. Nothing, zilch about acceptance. Also, one i have not reverted you a "third time". I reverted twice and then placed back the material manually as a edit for the following reasons. You gave a dubious reason for its removal saying at first that by default since the Muslim community had not "said anything" about the census officially that constitutes defacto acceptance. That is an assumption on your part and is wp:or. I then proceeded to placed a source that contradicted your claim. Now your saying that Olsi Jazexhi himself is dubious (apparently because he is unknown to you). You also cite a article written by him published on a Albanian website that discusses faith based matters regarding the Muslim community in Albania. Some academics around the world get their material published or publish on faith based sites apart from being published in scholarly publications. Had you checked the book on page 21 you would have noticed that [4] "Olsi Jazexhi holds a PHD in history and civilisation from the European University Institute, Florence, Italy." Jazexhi wrote that content in a edited chapter of whom scholars on Islam like Tsitselikis oversee and have final say. Brill is also a renowned publishing house. All this meets wp:reliable and wp:secondary. I am concerned that your claiming a source as "unreliable" is due to reasons other than editing in general. Recently you posted commentary on my talkpage about how i was erroneous in my ways ("keqardhje") that i edit articles relating to Islam and the Muslim based community in Albania and that i was promoting some agenda. I told you that editing was based on the sources and not emotion and you said that editing was about other things. I told you not go down that road that personal religious beliefs were a no, no (each unto themselves) and then you criticsed my religious past which in my youth was not Islam but Christianity and said that i had followed a sect or cult because it was not the the "truth". Those polemics though in Albanian are on my talkpage history [5] and i am more than willing to translate it for others if we go to the noticeboards about rule breaking. Unless some actual reason is given for removal of cited content i will be placing this back. Jazexhi wrote in the yearbook for Muslims which is edited by reknowned scholars dealing with Islam in Europe. Don't POV push. The Muslim Community expressed disaffection with the census from the highest levels and gave their own estimates for themselves.Resnjari (talk) 03:00, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Gjirokastra here. If you want to claim that the Muslim community objected to the census results, you are the one that needs to prove that. Don't try to shift the burden of proof to the other side. From what I see your source does not back your claim. It only says "some Muslim officials" objected to it, but not the Sunni community as a whole. Compare that with how the census was universally rejected by the Orthodox and Bektashi. Big difference. Khirurg (talk) 05:05, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I did. Consult source.Resnjari (talk) 21:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Khirurg, that sums it all up. The key concept here is if the census was officialy accepted by the respecive communities. The ones that did not accept it were the Orthodox and Bekthashi while the sunnis and catholics did accept it. The orthodox community in the last census had a circa 20 % proportion and the bektashi around 7%, and given the huge disbalance which in relative terms did reduce them by more than three times, they officially rejected it. Gjirokastra15 (talk) 15:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

The Sunni community expressed its dissatisfaction with the census results. As for the Orthodox community constituting 20%, what is this based on considering that much of the Albanian Orthodox community has declared itself "Northern Epirot" i.e Greek and gone to live in Greece? (The last census to give details of religious composition was right after WW2 showing 17% Orthodox).Resnjari (talk) 21:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

"The Sunni community expressed its dissatisfaction with the census results." Sources? -- SILENTRESIDENT 01:17, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

OsliJazexhi who wrote a chapter about Albania, in the yearbook about Muslims in Europe which is oversighted by scholars who reaserch Islam in Europe.> p. 22. [6]. Funny how you are commenting on all topics that i am involved in recent times. Interesting isn't it.Resnjari (talk) 22:14, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

What else did you expect, my dear, from the moment there is activity in my Watchlist's talk articles? This talk is on my Help:Watchlist and I ain't removing them anytime soon. It can't be helped, can it? :) -- SILENTRESIDENT 01:23, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Just so people know i don't date anyone who is active on Wikipedia. No need for "dear". Thank you. Well it could also be wp:hounding. Well everyone has a benefit of the doubt i guess.Resnjari (talk) 08:01, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, dear Resnjari, everyone has the benefit of doubt, but it is not uncommon to see me in the Albanian or Balkan-related articles. But I feel obliged to warn you that this Talk, as well as the article itself, are subjects to discretionary sanctions. I am afraid, the constant bad faith assumptions and indimitations (imaginary OR cases, imaginary Houding cases, imaginary Anti-Muslim racism, and more) against other editors interested in Balkan-related articles, like this one, with the aim of discouraging them from participating in such discussions in the future, amounts as WP:AOHA and WP:PERSONAL, which can result in blocks and bans. Which I am sure you know already, don't you? Constant assumptions of WP:BADFAITH of others Wikipedians and personal attacks against them aren't helpful. Please stick to the discussion. :) -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:43, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Like i said, i ain't no ones "dear". As for intimidation, some editors taking the 'moral high ground'. Please, i have it all before, way before most of you were even around on Wikipedia. On "Imaginary", never said someone did, just that the situation could be. See how things go.Resnjari (talk) 11:11, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Discussion about needed or unneeded additions

The specific edit [[7]] apart from wp:PEACOCK and wp:OR additions promotes the usual Balkan POV. For example: Many ancient architectural treasures from the Illyrians such as Byllis, Amantia, Phoenice ... can be found in Albania. appears to lack any citation (no wonder the Illyrian character of the specific settlements is non-existent per correspondent articles and their inline citation). Moreover the -clear- tag makes it clear that part of the specific additions are not necessary at all. There is also the following section which makes the entire initiative nothing else than POV: Albanian mythology consist of myths, legends, folks, fairy tales and gods of the Albanian people. Many characters in its mythology are included in the Songs of the Frontier Warriors (Albanian: Këngë Kreshnikësh or Cikli i Kreshnikëve). The Albanian mythology is divided into two major groups such as legends of metamorphosis and historical legends. The Albanian mythology has its origin to the ancient Illyrians, that inhabited the modern area of Albania during the classical time. Yet again the promotion of the autochtony hypothesis.Alexikoua (talk) 10:56, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

See how this goes with the editor who made those changes. Just observing at this point in time.Resnjari (talk) 11:11, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Yet again not the slightest explanation why this so-called mythology section should be part of the article: clearly wp:PEACOCK, POV, OR issues while half of the section lacks citation. I also fail to see when Albanian communities practiced polytheism (..."the gods of Albania in the context of Albanian mythology").Alexikoua (talk) 14:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Whats the problem to this section? The albanian mythology exist, in the section there are citations!

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 May 2017

HistoryBuff2 (talk) 00:50, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

@HistoryBuff2: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. And please support the changes with good WP:RS. Thanks. Murph9000 (talk) 01:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2017

The article states that Albania is the "22th largest producer" of sour cherries, when it should be "22nd largest" Carpsio (talk) 15:21, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Done — IVORK _Discuss 15:42, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Request to Edit for Minor Grammatical Edits on May 24 2017

I have an account for Wikipedia and have held it for more than 30 days, but not 500. For this, however, I have found minor grammatical errors that I wish to help correct. I would like access to edit this article for this purpose and it only. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dekkyun (talk • contribs) 21:16, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

The picture containing a Albanian Tulip is an Iris

The plant is misidentified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoseCottage (talk • contribs) 18:12, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Editor reverted because they are "disruptive"

Iaof2017, a newbie is being reverted because they are a "disruptive editor" (this comes after the person who calls Iaof2017 so wanted to find them a sock but failed to do it). This is Wikipedia:Harassment. The editors who want to add the pic should find an agreement here. I am initiating the discussion hoping the editors who want to add the pic will use it as a way to avoid further disruption. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:10, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Your defence of Iaof2017 as a newbie is touching. It really is. Except, it is disingenuous. First, Iaof2017 is a disruptive account who edit-wars longterm removing maps, pictures, etc. from this article that he does not like. Just a few examples of his/her longterm edit-warring and image-removal disruption: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. He also keeps misplacing images and keeps sandwiching them despite warnings. What's worse he has obvious competence issues and has been warned multiple times for serial copyright violations. in addition to that, he has obvious memory problems and does not remember when he agrees multiple times not to violate copyright and yet he pretends that he never heard such warnings before. For more details see his talkpage where I left him a suitable warning. Now, despite your lengthy block log, you take up his defence and start edit-warring removing a perfectly good image which depicts the cultural diversity and tolerance of Albania, without good reason, than to defend an account who is either trolling or just simply incompetent. But it does not end there. You also gave a vandalism warning to an established editor Alexikoua for reverting the clueless removal of the picture by Iaof2017. Your last block was in April of this year. if I were you, I would slow down and not pick unjustifiable edit-warring fights for no good reason. But that's just my advice. Take it or leave it. Dr. K. 12:44, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Dr.K, one can make much of other editors regarding a "take up his defence". On defending other editors the same pronouncement Dr K. made by yourself of others can be made of you. An example is the defence of a POV map purporting to show 'traditional communities' claiming that an editor had explained themselves (i am still waiting for that editor to do so in here of the questions i put to him/her some time back) with the comment to Ktrimi991 that "Go to the talkpage to explain them as Alexikoua did"[[8] while much showing the contrary. Now whatever your issue with that editor or with Iaof2017 this article has flaws due to few editors editing the Albania wikiproject as some editors have made sport in getting them block or banned without trying to dialogue with them. Also new images have been placed on Wikicommons relating to Albania. As Albania has some very restrictive panorama laws the Albanian wikipedia project has to deal with more deletions on the commons than other projects as not all are familiar with those laws when placing images. It means some images taken on a camera in ignorance are removed not long after. In addition some pictures that that been placed in Wikicommons have not been sourced well causing other issues of copyright. Though disappointing this is the situation for the Albanian Wikipedia project. This article is not the preserve of a few experienced editors, or those who may think of themselves that way but for whoever can make a substantive contribution or relevance. Others may have issues of "competence" in how they go about things. The more they edit the more they learn, unless they really screw up and sock.Resnjari (talk) 13:21, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Let's keep this discussion focused. You are trying to expand this discussion to criticise my actions and shift the clear focus on the disruptive actions by Iaof2017. If you have a problem with any of my actions, please open a separate section either here, or at a suitable noticeboard. Otherwise, please don't try to connect your perception of my past actions to the sheer incompetence and disruption caused by Iaof2017. Also read my message to Iaof2017 to get an idea of the size of cluelessness of that acoount. And please leave the lectures about this article being a "preserve of a few "experienced" editors". Iaof2017's disruption makes this type of argument silly. As far as the image copyright discussion, I don't think FOP applies to street signs. Dr. K. 13:50, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

In the previous comment i just went about it the way you did referring to Ktrimi's past block which was completely uncalled for the purposes of this discussion. As good faith needs to be observed and the benefit of doubt, no one is lecturing although certain comments can be taken as such either way. On Iaof2017, yes the editor does need to lift their game in style and other matters. Looking at the editor's talkpage they have received praise [[9]] for the creation of articles such as Biodiversity of Kosovo. So Iaof2017 is showing progress. In here there is issues though the question is on how to proceed ? Is this a case of only competence issues and if so how can improvements be made, as the editor has not violated rules by socking.Resnjari (talk) 14:06, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Well, yes and no. When Ktrimi starts misusing WP:TW to send vandalism warnings to established editors for restoring a picture to this article, AGF is good but, one has to look at the block log to see why such a level of TW misuse has occurred. Seeing that their last block was for a week, I thought that telling this editor to slow down was a good idea. As far as Iaof2017, he is an outlier. He has so many similarities to the Igaalbania socks, that s/he baffles me to this day. But I accept the SPI results and I am not calling him a sock. However, what sticks to my mind is his recent reply to Diannaa's latest copyright problem message: "Ok Thank you for informing me, to be honest i didnt know that. That will not happend again!". To be honest, really? How many times has he repeated almost the same reply in the past few months? I mean, AGF can go so far. Can this editor improve? I am not sure. It's a matter of probabilities and his/her net worth to this project. If he is to stay here, perhaps a mentor can help him/her. But that discussion is for another time and place. Dr. K. 15:10, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I can't understand the reason for Ktrimi's aggression, especially in what appears to be a disagreement with the specific image. Perhaps a more serious argument would be helpful compared to this one [[10]].Alexikoua (talk) 15:32, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Dr.K., it is true that FOP does not apply to mere street signposts.

Resnjari, an editor who reverts the same article three or more times, day after day, is violating not just the letter of the 3RR rule, but also the spirit of the rule, which is to not follow this tactic when they don't like something, and can thus be sanctioned for edit-warring even in the case where you can assert or assume that the editor has improved/can improve himself on other fields. The consequences of such aggression should not be ignored and skipped just because the incompetent editors have made positive contributions elsewhere in Wikipedia. --SILENTRESIDENT 17:17, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

The pic wasn't in article. Khirurg added it. His action was opposed by Iaof2017. Khirurg and others who want that pic in article have one path: discuss and find an agreement. Alexikoua added the pic again (even though its inclusion in article had been opposed for weeks) and said that I had not explained the reason I reverted Khirurg. I had explained the reason, and this together with Alexikoua's insistence to avoid civil discussion makes my warning very helpful. Dr.K. you should thank me. I did the right thing. If Alexikoua repeats his mistake, I will warn him again.

The first days are difficult for Albanian editors. You know why. My block log doesn't give you the right to revert me. The block log, even if it is clear doesn't help. Dr.K. you know this from your own experience. You have a clear block log and you are not what you want to be. We know the reason. Alexikoua and Khirurg have an impressive block log. I am not going to count how many times they were blocked. To focus on this case, you stated you don't want to discuss, reverted a newbie because they are according to you "a disruptive editor", "has obvious memory problems" and "simply incompetent" (we shouldn't discuss Iaof2017's first and difficult days, a result of the unfriendly place Wikipedia is but your disruptive behaviour). This is not enough to revert someone. If you don't have any other reason to add that pic in this article, I will delete it again.

Alexikoua you don't understand the reason for my "aggression". You should read the reason for my "aggression" above. I know what "aggression" means. I have found myself in some situations in an unjust way. For example, someone (nobody from those who have participated in this discussion) told someone else to attack me. I didn't react because I knew their actions would be fruitless. I will react if I find myself in a wrong situation apparently caused by the same person or not. That person will curse the day he attacked me if he repeats his mistake. Another editor has commented too, they are welcomed to participate in the discussion if they have something to say other than repeat what Dr.K. has said. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:21, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I have just warned User:Ktrimi991 on his talk page: link. I am urgently calling on all editors here to stop immediately this intentional and malicious use of certain words, epithets, names or information when referring to their collaborators, as this form of WP:HARASSMENT is sufficient ground by itself for an immediate block. In the event this is repeated, action will be taken immediately against the offender. Please, everyone to refrain from such forms of harassment in the future and conduct any discussions in a civil manner and without compromising the environment. --SILENTRESIDENT 23:50, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you SR. This is typical aggressive behaviour, with some elements that are threatening or simply trolling. Especially when Ktrimi wrote: You have a clear block log and you are not what you want to be. We know the reason. This guy is either a member of a gang of amateur magicians (notice the plural "we") who purport to be able to read my thoughts, or, most likely, s/he is simply trolling. In that case I wouldn't pay too much attention to his/her words. Although, if this behaviour continues it may well be a good candidate for an ANI report. Dr. K. 01:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I deleted the "warning". I am not the one who has done wrong things here. WP:Don't bite the newbies, reverts because other editor who don't think the same way is "a disruptive editor", "has obvious memory problems" and "simply incompetent", discussions on everything expect of content dispute (which is the reason why this section was created) and misuse of talk. Some months ago Khirurg was warned after he violated WP:CIVILITY with his threats to me. SILENT has only "warned" others since they entered this discussion (has said nothing on content dispute). By the way, who are "collaborators" here?

Pustec

I asked you to discuss on content dispute and you didn't do so. The Greek minority in Albania is well presented throughout article. The other minorities do not have that focus. This pic is good. It shows a bilingual directional road sign in Albanian and Macedonian (in latin and cyrilic alphabet, a language used by a minority group) and a bilingual informational road sign for tourists in Albanian and English (a language used by tourists). Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:38, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I highly recommend you do not ignore my warnings. If you seriously believe that you can harass the others and escape consequences due to being new editor in Wikipedia, then you are seriously in need of some education on Wikipedia rules and standards. WP:Harassment is not tolerated in any form, and due to its violent nature, the offenders face severe consequences regardless of their time in Wikipedia. The next time you refer to Khirurg or anyone else here by a different name or epithet like how you did here: link and here: link you find yourself being reported and banned. Expect no compromises when it comes to harassment, be it from new or old editors. And yes, this talkpage is on my watchlist and I may participate to a discussion, either in part or in whole and whenever it pleases me. Be careful. --SILENTRESIDENT 12:15, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I could have supported your proposal to replace the Albanian/Greek bilingual signpost with another one such as your proposed Albanian/Macedonian one, but the ill-intented and disruptive way you have handled things these days, both on the article and on the talk of Albania, has made me now very wary of your true intentions. I do not know you, nor I have followed your past interactions with other editors, but I have observed the developments these days and I can only tell you that your actions and attitude are not the way to building consensus with other users and certainly has undermined my trust to your pursued changes on the article's content. I am sorry but do not expect my support on this. --SILENTRESIDENT 12:30, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

On claims of Ktrimi991's alleged "aggression", since some things have been cited here and looking into it a sock investigation that was launched into him a while back made claims that were unfounded ([11] also an editor involved here in this discussion who launched the investigation into Ktrimi991 made some claims that have their own questions regarding privacy and possible violations of Wikipedia policy on that front). And some Albanian editors do feel that subtle//indirect "warnings" of going to an ANI or other investigations get mainly aimed at Albanian editors. Ktrimi991's sentiments here appear to be within that context. Other editors ought to also take on board advice regarding perceived aggression as unfounded sock investigations can be viewed by an editor as intimidation tactics which only sour the process of editing which when interactions to occur have endless time wasting discussions about nothing. Has anything productive emerged out of this here, instead of making the article better? Good faith on everyone's part.Resnjari (talk) 14:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

It's still weird that one editor can't present a serious argument for the removal of a specific image. Comments like Iaof2017 is a newbie editor or I've removed this picture because Iaof removed this previously can't be considered as part of a constructive discussion. They simply fall into wp:DISRUPTION.Alexikoua (talk) 19:05, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Though images are not my thing, since you insist the question posed to you is why should that image be in the article when there is a image showing bilingual signage in Albania that displays minority language signage alongside other foreign language signage, all in one picture. Since many of you keep referring to sandwiching of multiple images and disruption, why should the previous image which has less on it be in the article, when an alternative exists showing more (i.e hitting to birds with one stone)? A simple answer and resolution if this is really about issues of "sandwiching" and "disruption".Resnjari (talk) 20:52, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I did some research on internet. According to international sources, (e.g. see Second Most Spoken Language Index: link) today, in Albania, the second most spoken language after the Albanian language, is the Greek language, with the Italian language following third. That is because it is not only spoken among the Greek minority, but also among many Albanians, because a large part of the Albanian migrants and the Diaspora have been/are migrants to Greece. Since the picture in question is in the Languages section, I think it is excellent idea to keep the current picture as is, since it is showing the two most spoken languages in the country today. As for Ktrimi991's argument that the other minorities do not have that focus, I suggest that this is done elsewhere (i.e. "Culture" section of the article) since the Macedonian language isn't exactly as representative in terms of amount of people speaking it unlike the Greek, while focus can still be given to them on aspects of life that characterize this minority (i.e. food, music or culture). --SILENTRESIDENT 04:53, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

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Main article: Agriculture in Albania, Primary sector.

"The fish available off the coasts of Albania are carp, trout, sea bream, mussels, and crustaceans." I believe that carps and trouts are freshwater fish and wouldn't be found off the coast. L.Heid86.68.3.139 (talk) 11:56, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Map

very surprised that the two maps in the right column do not show Kosovo, only Serbia. I would update it but I don't know how. Bangabandhu (talk) 03:47, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

DEMOGRAPHICS OF ALBANIA

Is it okay to refresh the informations and delete some irrelevant informations within the Population and Religion section? The sections are just concentrated into the 2011 census; we have now 2017 and i think we can change that! thanks would be amazing.

Updates are always welcome, provided that you can supply reliable sources. So if you have the sources, go for it. And don't forget to sign your posts! (P.S. I've noticed you use the word "correcture" a lot in your edit summaries. I think you may be thinking of the German word "Korrektur", but the correct English word is "correction".) LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 14:50, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Population section needs to be updated.

I think the Population section needs to be updated and to there are to many informations, to show the population of Albania.

It would be a good idea to add a clear description of the ethnic background or make-up of the present population. I take it that they are primarily South Slavs, related most closely to the Serbs or Macedonians? But a reader has to infer this from the current article. Best regardsTheBaron0530 (talk) 14:33, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

There is a clear description. It's in the third paragraph of the Demographics section of the article under the heading "Population". The vast majority of people in Albania are ethnic Albanians. They are not Slavs (South or otherwise). They're Albanians. (And for that matter, they don't speak a Slavic language: they speak Albanian.) I'm not sure what gave you the impression that they might be Slavs, but it wasn't anything in the article. The article clearly says they're Albanians. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 17:23, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Number of French speakers in Albania

Unfortunately, I cannot edit this article.

According to the "Language" section, "La Francophonie states 320,000 French speakers can be found in Albania.[citation needed]"

Here's the reference for the "Number of French speakers" in that country:[12]

“ Nombre de locuteurs de français 316 900 (2010) ”

Perhaps, someone who can edit this article could update the article with the provided information?

Thanks, Document hippo (talk) 14:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Pepper

change ((pepper))s to ((Capsicum|peppers)) Ppwest (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Done SparklingPessimist ^{Scream at me!} 17:36, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 November 2017

In the third paragraph, please change "In the late twelfth century, Charles of Anjou conquered the Albanian..." to "In the late thirteenth century, Charles of Anjou conquered the Albanian..." because Charles of Anjou conquered the Albanian territories and was proclaimed king in 1272 which is in the thirteenth, not the twelfth, century C.E. Thank you Ppwest (talk) 16:27, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Done ToThAc (talk) 15:26, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

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Demographic section

Is it able to remove all those informations, which is mostly only about the 2011 census, and replace them into a new article or maybe within a new section within the "Demographics of Albania", because the Demographics section in "Albania" is very confusing and informs only about the census and not about (very little) the population of Albania.

Thanks! :)

No, absolutely not. Khirurg (talk) 18:23, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Calm down

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2017

Change

"Albania recognizes almost three national minorities, Greeks, Macedonians and Montenegrins, and two cultural minorities: Aromanians and Romani people.[202] Other Albanian minorities are Bulgarians, Gorani, Serbs, Balkan Egyptians, Bosniaks and Jews."

To

"Albania recognizes the following national minorities: Greek, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Montenegrin, Serb, Roma, Egyptian, Bosnian and two cultural minorities: Aromanians and Romani people.[202]"

The sources are: 1. http://www.novinite.com/articles/184224/Albania+has+Recognized+the+Bulgarian+Minority+in+the+Country 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Albania#Acknowledgement_of_the_Bulgarian_minority

Please make this change in the other langueages also. Rogershehu (talk) 10:21, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Done Here in the English Wikipedia. The English Wikipedia, however, has no control or authority over the Wikipedias in other languages and cannot automatically make this change or force it into those other languages. You will need to either perform this change yourself or request others to perform this change at the appropriate pages in the other language projects. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:50, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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