Talk:1997 Albanian civil unrest

Not a civil war

This was not a civil war. The name of the article should be changed. Terms that could replace the current title: turmoil, crisis, riots, unrest, rebellion, anarchy. I personally prefer unrest, or civil unrest. I would like to see if there are any other ideas before making any changes. Çerçok (talk) 23:57, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Both bibliography and the events here describe a civil war. No wonder all similar previous move requests so far were rejected.Alexikoua (talk) 03:09, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

You are right. Civil war is completely misleading. I would prefer them terms unrest, turmoil and others you mentioned. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 04:55, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, the current name is misleading. The majority of the sources does not describe the events as part of a civil war. Ktrimi991 (talk) 08:57, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

No, the events do not fit even the Wikipedia description of a civil war. The most common word on Google and Google Scholar is actually crisis, that is despite all the wiki-related sites using civil war. Çerçok (talk) 10:03, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991:@Çerçok: The term insurgency could be used as well. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 12:42, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

"Insurgency" is used by a good number of sources. However, I checked GoogleBooks and no doubt the most suitable term is "rebellion". It is widely used by high quality sources. Maybe @Çercok: should make a move request for "1997 Albanian rebellion". Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:12, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Rebellion is much better than civil war and I would not oppose a move to this new term. However, I do think that turmoil, unrest and crisis are even more accurate. Let's take a look at which one is more commonly used. Here are some numbers:

- "1997" "Albania" "Rebellion": Google 325,000; Google Scholar 13,100

- "1997" "Albania" "Crisis": Google 1,690,000; Google Scholar 82,300

- "1997" "Albania" "Turmoil": Google 563,000; Google Scholar 14,400

- "1997" "Albania" "Unrest": Google 208,000; Google Scholar 15,900

- "1997" "Albania" "Civil War": Google: 339,000; Google Scholar: 29,000 (including wiki-associated sites)

And:

- "1997" "Albanian Rebellion": Google 1,980; Google Scholar 143

- "1997" "Albanian Crisis": Google 2,390; Google Scholar 440

- "1997" "Albanian Turmoil": Google 271; Google Scholar 5

- "1997" "Albanian Unrest": Google 1,100; Google Scholar 54

- "1997" "Albanian Civil War": Google 3,000; Google Scholar 54 (including wiki-associated sites)

So crisis is the most widely used term in 3/4 cases, and it is not far from first place in the last case where the term civil war also benefits from being currently in the title. On Google Scholar the difference is notable, as it has around 3 times more results than second place in both cases.

I think we should go with crisis, but I will wait for other opinions before making a move request. Çerçok (talk) 11:59, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I would prefer rebellion because crisis seems an euphemism and a general term. However, i'm neutral on this. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 20:07, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, "crisis" is too general as a term. "Unrest" and "turmoil" are OK. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:01, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

That is totally fine with me:) Yes, @Çerçok: you should make a move request. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 06:36, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Supporting the move request. I would say that just from reading the article itself, nobody would think of calling the events a "civil war". I had a quick look to other languages in Wikipedia. German and Spanish use "Rebellion", Portuguese "Revolt", French "Crisis", Italian and Dutch "Anarchy", Russian and Turkish "Disturbances". Personally I think Ktrimi99 has found a very good term with "Turmoil". Ilyacadiz (talk) 21:43, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

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Requested move 11 April 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. Hadal (talk) 19:59, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

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Albanian Civil War → 1997 Albanian civil unrest – Referring to the events that took place in Albania in 1997 as a civil war is not entirely accurate. While there was widespread violence and unrest during that time, it was not an organized conflict involving organized armed groups fighting against each other for control of the government or territory. Instead, it was primarily characterized by acts of lawlessness, looting, and rioting by civilians in response to the collapse of the pyramid schemes. Even the Albanian Wiki article is not titled "Albanian Civil War". I am struggling to find reputable sources that explicitly refer to these events as the "Albanian civil war". Academics such as Oliver Schmitt, Bernd Jürgen Fischer, and Fred C. Abrahams mostly refer to as a revolt (1, 2) or uprising. In Abrahams' 'Modern Albania: From Dictatorship to Democracy in Europe, he states:

"Journalists and analysts have struggled to characterize Albania’s tumultuous year. Some said the north and south fought a civil war: the Ghegs of the northern highlands versus the Tosks of the southern plains. A few called it a religious dispute, although it is not clear between whom. Berisha portrayed it as a communist revolt, with help from Greece and the United States. The chaos of 1997 was not a civil war along geographic, religious, or tribal lines. Berisha enjoyed support in the north, but many northerners opposed his rule, furious at having lost their cash. Likewise, the DP had supporters in the south."

Sources such as NATO, the IMF, CNN, APNews, LeMonde, LeFigaro, The New York Times, referred/refer to it as "unrest", "revolt", "rebellion", "protests', "riots", "chaos", "rebellion", "violence"... not as a "civil war".

Any alternative titles are welcome. Mooonswimmer 18:53, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nominator and I'm surprised this wasn't addressed before. --Killuminator (talk) 19:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. 〜 Festucalex • talk 20:49, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Comment: I'm not attached to "Civil War" in the title, but I have some reservations that the word "unrest" kind of downplays the amount of violence and turmoil which occurred. Of course, words like "rebellion" would incur the same objections as "Civil War", since they might give the idea of fighting between two organized sides... AnonMoos (talk) 21:55, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

What do you think of "revolt" ? Mooonswimmer 23:34, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:57, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nominator. this article was moved too "Albanian civil war" by now banned user Zoupan in 2016. Durraz0 (talk) 12:09, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

  The page has been moved many times without discussion, but it was not Zoupan who first moved it from a rebellion title to a war title. That was FarSouthNavy. Srnec (talk) 00:10, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  Absolutely nope. I just made a non-controversial MoS change on 8 December 2015. The renaming of the artice and the category was made sometime later.--- Darius (talk) 01:20, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  You are right. My bad. The move still wasn't made by Zoupan but by Amakuru in closing this requested move initiated by Zoupan. There were two other RMs, the first to the present title (without the year) and the second a failed one for "Albanian rebellion of 1997", initiated by Hakuli. Srnec (talk) 02:09, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 1 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 14:42, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

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1997 Albanian civil unrest → 1997 Albanian rebellion – I think simply describing this event as unrest is not enough as it was a huge event, and most sources call it a rebellion, revolt or even a civil war. 1991 Iraqi uprisings is not called 1991 Iraq unrest so we should change this article’s name. Other suggestions welcome 88.240.249.238 (talk) 22:07, 31 July 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). SilverLocust 💬 13:52, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: As was noted at WP:RM/TR, the current title was the result of a requested move discussion in April, though there were some reservations about this current title. See above. SilverLocust 💬 13:52, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah I know. I think the current title is very indescribable of the situation that occurred, it’s like naming the current war between Ukraine and Russia the “Ukrainian-Russian crisis of 2022-2023”, this event was a rebellion 88.240.249.238 (talk) 20:08, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment While there were elements of rebellion against the government and the existing political order in 1997, I don't think the term "rebellion" fully captures the complexity and nature of the situation, which involved a combination of economic, social, and political factors and had a significant portion of the population taking part in the unrest. I believe the term "civil unrest" better encompasses the broader range of protests, riots, crime, etc... that took place.

Note: I instigated the previous requested move discussion. Also, it is true that "rebellion" was used by a number of sources to describe the unrest. As mentioned in the previous move discussion, there are few reputable sources that explicitly refer to the events as the "Albanian civil war". Academics such as Oliver Schmitt, Bernd Jürgen Fischer, and Fred C. Abrahams mostly refer to it as a revolt or uprising. I am not fully opposed to using the term "rebellion", but I will wait for a few more editors to pitch in. Mooonswimmer 21:10, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose This was discussed just a few months ago, and the agreement reached was that "unrest" is the most suitable term. No new arguments have been provided. "Rebellion" has some more results on GoogleBooks, but "unrest" has some more results on GoolgeScholar so a COMMONNAME argument can not be used. Rebellions tend to have a clear and central goal, often regime change or major changes in a governing body. Unrest can be sth more naunced. The events of 1997 were nuanced, bc some people were demanding to get back the money lost in the "pyramid schemes", while other people's goal was sth else. In many cases people involved were merely local criminals who wanted to gain from the situation through things like drug trafficking and kidnappings. The reasons and goals involved were probably too complex to call what happened a "rebellion". Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:31, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

  Half of the country fell under rebel control and most articles call it a rebellion, it was a rebellion. Using your logic the american civil war should be renamed to “The American civil unrest of the 1860s”. 88.243.196.32 (talk) 20:10, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose as per WP:COMMONAME. Civil unrest is much more fitting for the article and is more accurate in describing what occurred. Botushali (talk) 00:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose there is no consensus in bibliography which allows us to call this series of events a rebellion.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:15, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose It can also be called rebellion for some events, but it is a heavy word to describe the entire period of... civil unrest.HokutoKen (talk) 17:20, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.