Talk:Albanians in North Macedonia

Dervish Cara Uprising

@Local hero:@Botushali: Hey, LH. Hope you're well. I'm certain that this revert is wrong. The external site is a wikimirror as you can see how it links back to the wikipedia article Uprising of Dervish Cara. I think that both the article and the section need a lot of work.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:00, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh so it was this external site which copied the text from Uprising of Dervish Cara. Either way, the text here shouldn't just be a copy-paste of that article. Otherwise, we should just put "{{See also|Uprising of Dervish Cara}}". --Local hero ^talk 16:49, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Again, this article cannot contain a full copy-paste of another article. Summarize it please, otherwise it should be reverted. --Local hero ^talk 00:42, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

@Local hero: After January 3, I will do a cleanup and reword it along with other edits I consider significant to bring the article to an acceptable level.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:22, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Edit-war

It goes without saying that excluding information from a straightforward source like the results of a national census is disruptive. Local hero considering you are the only user contesting the edits, it is up to you to explain why we should go against Wikipedia's guidelines and only choose particular parts of the source and remove the remaining information. But by judging your edit-summaries it becomes evident that you don't have any actual arguments for it and that the results of the census somewhat bothers you. Ahmet Q. (talk) 09:45, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Fully agree with the above. Just like with anything in life, you can't just pick and choose what information you use out of 1 source. Especially not in an objective, raw, numbers situation such as this. The argument "this has never been included before" is irrelevant because previous censuses have only ever included a "total population field". With this one here you have both a permanent resident population and one including diaspora. Indeed arguments such as I see no value fall into WP:JDL.Alltan (talk) 09:58, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, when something new is added to an article and it gets reverted, typically that user, instead of reverting back, comes to the talkpage and attempts to resolve disputes. Not sure why it took multiple days of back and forth for this to happen.

Anyway, as you both know, following edits by you and I, the article provides both resident and diaspora numbers. However, this particular dispute is specific to the particular section in question. When addressing "Municipalities with an Albanian majority or plurality", why would we include numbers of people who do not live there? These people do not vote and, again, do not live there. Not to mention, it was completely optional for people in the diaspora to register and many boycotted. Please do not limit your response to "well, there's two of us and one of you". --Local hero ^talk 02:19, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

The total population figures including those currently living abroad were part of the census, so there might be readers who are interested in them. Wikipedia's role is exactly that, to give information people are searching for. Having both the numbers of residents and non-resident citizens also gives information on the demographic dynamics in those places for Albanians in North Macedonia.Alltan (talk) 12:03, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

It's not just "currently living abroad", it is permanently living abroad (1 year or longer). For instance, this article from a year ago gives a backstory to the kind of people that are included in that number: a man who has not resided in the country since 1991. Thus, these numbers do not align with the stated objective of the section, which is to list which municipalities have a majority/plurality of ethnic Albanians. I'm fine with adding some text about the diaspora population numbers, but having it alongside the actual municipal populations in the table is, as I see it, an incorrect presentation. --Local hero ^talk 03:25, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I think that the article can mention total figures and clarify what diaspora refers to. We could follow the exact format of the census as to avoid any disputes about how to present them.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:18, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

To be clear, what are you suggesting that should look like? A paragraph describing what diaspora refers to and how the numbers change if those are factored in? The census presents all of the statistics it has gathered in a spreadsheet. --Local hero ^talk 03:41, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

It can be a sentence below the two tables and we can mention figures from all municipalities @Local hero:@Alltan: I can put forward some edits to show you what I'm thinking and I can self-rv, if it's not something which you would agree with.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:28, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Sure, I'd be interested in seeing what you're thinking, if you don't mind. --Local hero ^talk 01:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

I'll place the edit later today.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:00, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

• @Local hero:@Alltan: I have removed some of the features of the table (mayors, area, number of settlements/municipality) and I have used the categories of the census figures as they are described in the census: total resident population and total enumerated population with a byline which explains to readers what they refer to. I changed the section from "municipalities with an Albanian majority" to "municipalities". I think that this section should mention municipalities which have a substantial population which identifies as Albanian. Marking as separate those which have an Albanian majority and/or an Albanian mayor from a demographic perspective doesn't have any "special" value but reads more like a talking point about territorial marking.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:59, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I agree and I think this is a fair revision. --Local hero ^talk 05:01, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

EXTRAORDINARY additions

A lot of content has been added recently, backed by Albanian-language Albanological sources with no quotes/links provided. The new Balkan Wars section seems quite WP:EXTRAORDINARY. I have never seen mentions of pre-Balkan Wars Albanian populations in Kriva Palanka, Kratovo, or Štip by contemporary demographic sources, so I was surprised to read "Chetnik paramilitary groups supported by the Serbian Army attacked and expelled the Albanian populations of Palanka, Kratovo, Štip...". Not saying such communities definitely didn't exist, it just seems to contradict contemporary demographic accounts of these places, so I think we need better backing of this population that was then attacked and expelled by the Serbian army. --Local hero ^talk 18:03, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Look at Shtip and Kratovo

There is nothing wrong with Albanian language Albanological studies as far as I know. Chetniks massacring Albanians is quite ordinary actually, we have an entire article on that. Albanian communities have, indeed existed as far east as Kratovo and Shtip. These communities existed for quite a long time actually, Shtip had Albanians in the 1961 census (majority in the now abandoned villages of Creška, Jamularci, Skandalci and Toplik) and about Kratovo we have a report from Leo Freundlich's Albania's Golgotha pg.33: "Near Kratovo , General Stefanovic , having ordered hundreds of Albanians to form two rows , shot them down with machine guns. Thereupon , the general explained : “ These scoundrels must be exterminated so that Austria may no longer be able to find her darlings '". I haven't yet added them to the article but there also former medieval (likely-pre Ottoman) villages named Arbanasi (Shtip) and Arvana (Kratovo). Kratovo in particular also had Catholic Albanians present. On Palanka I agree, I'm not sure if the author meant Bela Palanka in Serbia or Krivo Palanka in Macedonia. The former was inhabited by Albanians, meanwhile the latter as far as I have looked, was not.Alltan (talk) 18:25, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Not inherently, but when they are making extraordinary claims it begs further scrutiny. I'm not questioning that Chetniks massacred Albanians, just in these particular areas because I was unaware of any communities in Kriva Palanka/Kratovo/Štip. I see what you're saying in the 1961 census, about 91 Albanians in those four Štip villages; thanks for providing the Freundlich report and for looking further into Kriva Palanka. --Local hero ^talk 15:31, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Nationalistic propaganda.

It has never been proven or even suggested protoalbanian was the original settler of the land. Slavic, Thracian, Hellenic & other people have cohabited the Balkans for thousands of years. This article is a mockery. 2406:3400:912:C830:C0EF:376E:D669:C3B0 (talk) 12:40, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Slavic people in the Balkans for thousands of years? Lol. What’s not debated is that Proto-Albanian predates Slavic in the Balkans, particularly in certain regions of North Macedonia, hence the mediation of certain toponyms into the Slavic languages via Proto-Albanian phonetic developments. Botushali (talk) 15:36, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Has the Skupi to Skopje through Albanian been settled or is that just one theory like it is for Shar and Shtip? Also how would Lychnidos - Ohrid be through Albanian? As far as i can tell Ohrid is clearly a different etymology

GoofyMF (talk) 09:43, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia Talk Page isn't a place to chat! With that in mind, if you have other reliable sources that claim otherwise I'll be happy to see them. No body cares about "as far as you can tell" if there are refs that support what is written. Bes-ARTTalk 10:31, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure "talk" is for "talking" but since we are talking about references when is Struga going to be deleted from the page considering it doesn't have a single reference that the word "shtrunge" is related to Struga or is a website about milking sheep that make no reference to Albanians or Struga enough for you? The article also says Veles was founded as Köprülü when the wiki page of that city clearly says it was renamed and existed before it was called Köprülü?

The name Struga is slavic in origin you should check the Struga talk page where we had plenty of conversations it was settled beyond reasonable doubt

GoofyMF (talk) 12:36, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Also unrelated but Struga should be removed from this article we already had the discussion in the talk page there, a bot just reverted my edit

GoofyMF (talk) 09:46, 25 June 2022 (UTC)