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Talk:Alberto Santos-Dumont/Archive 2

< Talk:Alberto Santos-Dumont
Latest comment: 9 months ago by 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF in topic Expand?
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Curiosities

Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I've removed the following addition to the article:

CURIOSITIES
Many consider Orville and Wilbur Wright's parents aviation. What few know is that according to the words of the brothers, only five people attended the your flight (no manifested today) and there is evidence of your flight, according to the brothers. A strange curiosity is that Wilbur called the President of the French aero club, asking for details of the plane 14-bis of Santos-Dumont, in 1908, two years after the flight of the 14-Bis. If the brothers had made a flight because they wanted details of the plane Dumont?
Source: Great-nephew of Santos-Dumont: Antônio Dumont; Brazilian Museum of Inventors; The book "Seis tombos e um pulinho. As aventuras de Santos-Dumont até inventar o 14-bis", VILLARES, Marcos

I'm not entirely sure what the point of this section was, but at the very least the English needs cleaning up. --grummerx (talk) 21:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant Paragraph

Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The following paragraph keeps being added. It has nothing to do with Santos Dumont, it's all about the Wright brothers, and doesn't belong here.

With less fanfare, there was an assisted take off, 10 months earlier, between 26 September and 5 October 1905, when American aviators Orville and Wilbur Wright had completed a series of six dramatic "long flights" ranging from 17 to 38 minutes and 11 to 24 miles (39 km) around the three-quarter mile course over Huffman Prairie, near Dayton, Ohio. Wilbur made the last and longest flight, 24.5 miles (39.4 km) in 38 minutes and 3 seconds, ending with a safe landing when the fuel ran out. The flight was seen by a number of people, including several invited friends, their father Bishop Milton Wright, and neighboring farmers.[1]

217.44.141.1 (talk) 13:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

It appears that the reason for the statement was to counter many suppositions as to the rival claim of the Wrights. Leave it in place unless you have a consensus for change. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC).

References

  1. ^ "Wright Brothers Scrapbooks, p. 12." Dayton Metro Library. Retrieved: 9 January 2010.

Photo of 'No. 6 rounding the Eiffel tower'

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This photograph is not what it is very widely purported to be. It is in fact a photograph of No.5 taken on 13 July 1901, and published in the August 1901 issue of l'Aérophile.TheLongTone (talk) 16:16, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Error in "Later Years" section

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In this section it is first stated that after the outbreak of war in 1914 .... he burned his papers and moved back to Brazil. It also states that in 1918 he build a new house in Brazil. However later on this section says "In 1928 Santos-Dumont left France to go back to his country of birth." There seems to be a conflict between these two paragraphs within the same section. I have no idea which is right, so I won't change anything. Tøpholm (talk) 00:43, 3 February 2016 (UTC)


Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Death

Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

No one is sure if he really commited suicide over the use of aircraft at the 1932 Revolution. It's seen as a myth or a tale... In fact, aircraft had been used widely long before (Alberto was in Europe when the Great War started) for combat and he stood up... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arcanj106 (talk • contribs) 03:18, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Is hard to know. He already stated have disgust over the user of airplanes as killer machines (like in his 1918 book - but he also said that the Brazilian aeronautics should be well developed as in Europe) and is well know that his health was deteriorating in the later years (an airplane accident that resulted in several deaths during a party in his homage made the things even worse. Erick Soares3 (talk) 14:31, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Article about the airplane accident in Portuguese. Erick Soares3 (talk) 15:29, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Nationality

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

If his father was French the soon was too. Since the father was French when he went to Brazil and that it is not possible to loose a French nationality (well, not in theses conditions), the most probable is that the father was French or maybe French-Brazilian, and so was the soon. Most likely Santos Dumont had a dual nationality, that would explain a lot of the story. v_atekor (talk) 07:46, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

[removed my remark again. Nerves. Sorry.].Psycho Chicken (talk) 05:47, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Franco-Brazilian

Latest comment: 3 years ago7 comments6 people in discussion

I think that Santos-Dumont should probably be described as "Franco-Brazilian". For one thing he came to France with his family at age 17 and lived there the rest of his life (except that last year back in Brazil). For another his father was French. And FWIW it's almost certainly true that if he'd stayed in Brazil he wouldn't have been able to achieve the things he did (no Antionette engines and many other things). I don't know what his citizenship status was though. But I think most any other person in this situation would be hyphenated. I mean, Regina Spektor for instance is described as simply "American" not even "Russian-American", granted she left Russia at age nine rather than 17, but still.

So I made the change. My guess is that it'll be reverted and probably for reasons of Brazilian chauvanism, and its not of earthshaking import so I'm not gonna fight over that, but I'm probably right. Herostratus (talk) 15:27, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

you are fully right, not only as described but legally, because he had his father French and then had the French nationality too, even if Brazil do not recognize dual-nationalities (That's the key of the problem... opting for the Brazilian pov only is a pov. The article should present the problem, I think... ) v_atekor (talk) 20:50, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Alberto's father was born in Brazil, although educated in France. Alberto considered himself Brazilian. He actually spent a substantial part of his later life, including 1915-22, in Brazil. I don't think Franco-Brazilian will wash.TheLongTone (talk) 14:51, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Technically, it would have been "Brazilian-French", if he had French nationality, as he was born in Brazil and later became French. If you're born in Brazil and later get American nationality you're an Brazilian-American, not an American-Brazilian, which would be the other way around. Also, in English it seems that the same form of gentilic is used for both the "adjective" (first) and the "main" (second) components, rather than these reduced forms or whatever they're called. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.68.109.57 (talk) 04:41, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

I believe Santos Dumont was both French and Brazilian. I do not have any specific evidence for that, except that I know that he signed his name as Santos=Dumont, meaning that both names (Santos is a Brazilian name and Dumont is of French origin) had the same importance for him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nelbr (talk • contribs) 21:18, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Assinatura_do_Santos_Dumont_2.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nelbr (talk • contribs) 21:22, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Believes and guesses. Wikipedia.Psycho Chicken (talk) 05:48, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Currency value

Latest comment: 1 year ago7 comments5 people in discussion

What was a million réis worth in November 1903, in, say 2022 USD? --84.70.235.158 (talk) 19:50, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

This is almost impossible to evaluate. Torimem (talk) 21:05, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
What about 1903 USD? --84.70.235.158 (talk) 21:38, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
On second thought, I think estimating it for 2022 USD is perfectly possible, but I wonder if it would fall under original research and I doubt it would be accurate. I've found a paper that puts the réis-dollar exchange rate in 1903 at 4140 réis per 1 dollar (4.14 mil réis/dollar) assuming I got it right. Torimem (talk) 23:41, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Even putting the OR concern (which real) aside, such calculations are extremely precarious, and the results almost impossible to interpret in any meaningful way. The 1,000,000/4140 ≈ 250 dollars in 1903, and inflating that to today gives about 6000 to 10,000 dollars depending on assumptions. That clearly makes no sense at all as the cost of building a pioneering airplane. EEng 01:55, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
  • I think it's frustrating enough to give values in a currency that it's near-impossible to translate into modern currency, without using "conto de réis". I've substituted "million réis" as it's maybe a little less confusing. John (talk) 15:41, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
Two examples from this article:
  • 12 million réis (how much Santos father sold his farm) = $5 million in 1895
  • Santos Dumont inheritance = $500,000

Thanks, Erick Soares3 (talk) 13:32, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Closed access article

Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments2 people in discussion

If someone have access, the following work may be interesting for this biography: Oliveira, Patrick Luiz Sullivan de (2022). "Transforming a Brazilian Aeronaut into a French Hero: Celebrity, Spectacle, and Technological Cosmopolitanism in the Turn-of-the-Century Atlantic". Past and Present. 254 (1): 235–275. doi:10.1093/pastj/gtab011. Erick Soares3 (talk) 14:32, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I can get it, but you'll need to be patient. EEng 18:27, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
All right, thanks!! Erick Soares3 (talk) 19:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
@EEng: it seems that they made it free for Christmas. I have just used it in both Wikis and is quite interesting. Erick Soares3 (talk) 13:33, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Descendants ?

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The article says that he left no descendants, but later a photo is captioned "Alexandre and Marcos Villares, descendants of Santos-Dumont ...". I guess they are descendants of a sister ? (Two of the sisters are mentioned as named Vilares, one l.) -- Beardo (talk) 14:37, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Fixed [1]. EEng 15:18, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Questions on 1945 Newsreel clip

Latest comment: 9 months ago9 comments3 people in discussion
Monoplane seen at 23 seconds in File:First flights in aviation history.ogg; link to full size
Biplanes seen at 29 seconds
Landed biplane seen at 33 seconds

Can anyone provide more details to the description of the video Commons:File:First flights in aviation history.ogg shown at the right? I have added this line for the part relevant to Santos-Dumont:

21 to 32 seconds: man with hat; monoplane landing; two biplanes in flight; "Alberto Santos-Dumont on 13 September 1909, the Brazilian pioneer airman, made the first aeroplane flight in all Europe"

Questions:

The single engined monoplane at 23 seconds is presumably the same as that seen in flight from 25 to 28 seconds. Which model might it be?
What are the flying biplanes seen at 29 to 30 seconds?
What is the landed biplane at 33 seconds?
Where did the 13 September 1909 flight take place? September 1909 and 1909 in aviation#September have nothing.

Thanks. -84user (talk) 17:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Answers: Never too late, eh? So here goes:
Single engine monoplane at 23 sec is the Santos-Dumont Demoiselle, which is shown in flight at 25-28 sec.
Flying biplanes at 29-30 sec appear to be (upper) a Voisin 1907 biplane, or possibly a later model, and (lower) possibly a Wright Model A (with canard).
Landed biplane at 33 sec is decidedly a Wright Flyer, almost certainly a Model A (with forward elevator: the canard). The man at center appears to be Wilbur; man at right appears to be Orville. Location would be Pau, France, or Italy, between January and spring, 1909. Uncertain as to ID of passenger.
Narrator gives incorrect date for first European flight; it was October 23, 1906 by Santos Dumont in Paris (see details in the article of this Talk page). DonFB (talk) 06:28, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
The Morris Tribune. [volume], September 29, 1906, Image 7
KEEPING TAB ON THE WORLD
Concluded from page 2.
Santos Dumont's Mechanical Flight.
Although M. Santos-Dumont in his new aeroplane, the Bird of Prey, was able to traverse the air at Paris only a distance of thirty-seven feet before his ship came to the ground with a crash, nevertheless the test is regarded as one of great importance because it was the first time an airship had ever left the earth unaided.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn91059394/1906-09-29/ed-1/seq-7/#date1=1770&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=aeroplane+Dumont+Santos+Santos-Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=15&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=santos+dumont+aeroplane&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 17:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Nature – November 8, 1906, Page 35
The First “Manned” Flying Machine.
OCTOBER 23 of the present year will be remembered as a red-letter day in the history of flying machines, for it was on that day that the first flying machine, constructed on the “heavier than air” principle, successfully raised itself and its driver from the ground several feet, and transported itself by means of its own power over a distance of eighty yards.
In this his first successful flight with this machine. M. Santos Dumont is to be sincerely congratulated, for he has accomplished a performance which many workers in different parts of the world have been striving after for many years past and failed.
https://www.nature.com/articles/075035a0#:~:text=OCTOBER%2023%20of%20the%20present,itself%20by%20means%20of%20its 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 17:56, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
New-York Tribune. [volume], November 20, 1906, Page 6, Image 6
SANTOS-DUMONT ANTICIPATED.
A fresh reason for determining the amount of glory due to Santos-Dumont for his recent flights with an aeroplane is afforded by an article in the latest number of "Nature" to reach this country. In that periodical it is asserted that on October 23 "the first flying machine, constructed on the 'heavier than air' principle, successfully raised itself and its driver from the ground several feet, and transported itself by means of its own power over a distance of eighty yards." While that statement is probably correct, the merit of the performance can be rightly estimated only by a comparison with what Wilbur and Orville Wright, of Dayton, Ohio, have been able to accomplish.
Santos-Dumont has been at work on the aeroplane only about a year. Most of his aeronautic experiments were conducted with an entirely different class of airship, the self-propelled balloon. On the other hand, the Wright brothers have been identified with the aeroplane for at least four or five years and perhaps longer. In a letter to the Aero Club of America, last winter they told the results attained by them up to the close of 1905. So startling were their claims that in France and Germany their story was received with much skepticism. With a creditable desire to vindicate the honor of the country, The Scientific American addressed a circular letter of inquiry to seventeen persons who, according to the Wrights, had witnessed their aerial voyages. Twelve responses were received, one of them coming from Mr. Octave Chanute, the author of a well known work on aeronautic experiments and a man whose veracity no well informed foreigner or American would venture to question. The testimony of each of these witnesses was in substantial agreement with that of the others. Though now and then doubt would be expressed as to the exact date of a flight, the distance covered or some other detail, the general tenor of the letters seemed to put the truthfulness of the Wrights' statement quite beyond dispute.
It is worthy of note, in the interests of justice, that the Brazilian has made better provision for launching an aeroplane than the Wrights did last year. His machine, when on the ground, is supported by wheels. When the Wrights were ready to start, theirs was arranged crosswise on a pair of rails. To overcome the friction between these and the lower part of the frame, it was necessary to rely on external aid. Their aeroplane would not lift itself clear of the rails until it had been pushed forward twenty-five or thirty feet by hand, whereas the one which has just created a sensation in Europe will advance without assistance as soon as the propellers begin to revolve and will rise shortly afterward unhelped. Strictly speaking, then, "Nature" is quite right when it says that Santos-Dumont's machine is the first to raise Itself by means of its own power.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1906-11-20/ed-1/seq-6/#date1=1770&index=18&rows=20&words=aeroplane+Dumont+Santos+Santos-Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=santos+dumont+aeroplane&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 17:56, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Evening Star. [volume], December 09, 1906, Sunday star, Page 5, Image 53
The Sunday Star, Washington, D. C., December 09, 1906—Part 4.
(Copyright, 1906, by John Elfreth Watkins.)
SANTOS-DUMONT is the first man to have performed aerial flight with a self-propelled machine heavier than the air which it displaced. He has solved a problem which has caused inventive geniuses to burn the midnight oil and toss restlessly upon their couches since centuries before the dawn of the Christian era. During three millenniums or more ambitious men have broken their hearts and their heads seeking the great goal which this fearless Brazilian has won within the past few weeks.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1906-12-09/ed-1/seq-53/#date1=1770&index=0&rows=20&words=aerial+air+displaced+DUMONT+first+flight+have+heavier+machine+man+performed+propelled+SANTOS+SANTOS-DUMONT+self+self-propelled+than+which&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=SANTOS-DUMONT+is+the+first+man+to+have+performed+aerial+flight+with+a+self-propelled+machine+heavier+than+the+air+which+it+displaced&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 17:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Danville Intelligencer. [volume], January 04, 1907, Image 1
It remained for the world of 1906 to see the first mechanical navigation of the air from a standing start in a screw-propelled aeroplane. This was achieved by M. Santos-Dumont, at Paris, September 13. in his airship, the Bird of Prey.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn86053369/1907-01-04/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1770&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=aeroplane+Santos-Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=+aeroplanes+of+Santos+Dumont&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=7 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 17:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Flying Machines: practice and design – December, 1909, Page 54
Santos-Dumont, in November, 1906, with a petrol driven aeroplane machine, accomplished a short flight successfully, and so is probably the first man carried on a mechanically propelled flying machine. He accomplished a flight of 200 ft. at about 8 ft. from the ground, and secured the Archdeacon prize cup.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark%3A%2F13960%2Ft7sn02698&seq=70 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 17:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
The Democratic Advocate. [volume], January 11, 1907, Image 1
Address By President Armstrong.
William H. Armstrong, former president of the Maryland State Turnpike Association, delivered the following address at the meeting held in Hagerstown on December 29:
“In the near future, there may float in the ocean of air above us, simulachres of those winged monsters of the paleozoic age, that lived by the shores of nameless lakes and left their ‘footprints in the sands of time.' These griffins of the sky will be the aeroplanes of Santos Dumont, and may be the evolution ary successors of the horse, the automobile and the trolley. They will carry their freight, in cars less costly, against a material less resistant than earth or water and be operated at an expense less than the vehicles now used by man.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85038292/1907-01-11/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1770&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=aeroplanes+Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=14&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=Dumont+aeroplane&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=10 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 17:59, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Removal of "popularly held that he preceded the Wright brothers"

Latest comment: 9 months ago11 comments5 people in discussion

The reason I removed this is not because it was unsourced, but because it appears exclusively in the lead and not in the body of the article. The purpose of the lead is to summarize the body of the article, and as such it should not contain information that is not present in the body. I would have no objection to the sentence were there a section in the body of the article discussing (and rebutting with the consensus view, as the cited source does and due weight would have us do) the statement being made. I believe a section like this once existed, but was deleted at some point. Until such a section exists in the body however, it bears no mentioning in the lead. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 04:10, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Feel free to add such a section. In the meantime, an article on Santos Dumont that omits this basic fact would be an absurdity. EEng 04:18, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
This tidbit about his relationship to the Wright Brothers is literally the only reason I've ever even heard of him 73.180.42.186 (talk) 07:10, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
@3.180.42.186: A lot of people in Brazil only know about the Wright Brothers because of that, too. Erick Soares3 (talk) 14:23, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
The Morris Tribune. [volume], September 29, 1906, Image 7
KEEPING TAB ON THE WORLD
Concluded from page 2.
Santos Dumont's Mechanical Flight.
Although M. Santos-Dumont in his new aeroplane, the Bird of Prey, was able to traverse the air at Paris only a distance of thirty-seven feet before his ship came to the ground with a crash, nevertheless the test is regarded as one of great importance because it was the first time an airship had ever left the earth unaided.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn91059394/1906-09-29/ed-1/seq-7/#date1=1770&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=aeroplane+Dumont+Santos+Santos-Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=15&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=santos+dumont+aeroplane&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:09, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Nature – November 8, 1906, Page 35
The First “Manned” Flying Machine.
OCTOBER 23 of the present year will be remembered as a red-letter day in the history of flying machines, for it was on that day that the first flying machine, constructed on the “heavier than air” principle, successfully raised itself and its driver from the ground several feet, and transported itself by means of its own power over a distance of eighty yards.
In this his first successful flight with this machine. M. Santos Dumont is to be sincerely congratulated, for he has accomplished a performance which many workers in different parts of the world have been striving after for many years past and failed.
https://www.nature.com/articles/075035a0#:~:text=OCTOBER%2023%20of%20the%20present,itself%20by%20means%20of%20its 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
New-York Tribune. [volume], November 20, 1906, Page 6, Image 6
SANTOS-DUMONT ANTICIPATED.
A fresh reason for determining the amount of glory due to Santos-Dumont for his recent flights with an aeroplane is afforded by an article in the latest number of "Nature" to reach this country. In that periodical it is asserted that on October 23 "the first flying machine, constructed on the 'heavier than air' principle, successfully raised itself and its driver from the ground several feet, and transported itself by means of its own power over a distance of eighty yards." While that statement is probably correct, the merit of the performance can be rightly estimated only by a comparison with what Wilbur and Orville Wright, of Dayton, Ohio, have been able to accomplish.
Santos-Dumont has been at work on the aeroplane only about a year. Most of his aeronautic experiments were conducted with an entirely different class of airship, the self-propelled balloon. On the other hand, the Wright brothers have been identified with the aeroplane for at least four or five years and perhaps longer. In a letter to the Aero Club of America, last winter they told the results attained by them up to the close of 1905. So startling were their claims that in France and Germany their story was received with much skepticism. With a creditable desire to vindicate the honor of the country, The Scientific American addressed a circular letter of inquiry to seventeen persons who, according to the Wrights, had witnessed their aerial voyages. Twelve responses were received, one of them coming from Mr. Octave Chanute, the author of a well known work on aeronautic experiments and a man whose veracity no well informed foreigner or American would venture to question. The testimony of each of these witnesses was in substantial agreement with that of the others. Though now and then doubt would be expressed as to the exact date of a flight, the distance covered or some other detail, the general tenor of the letters seemed to put the truthfulness of the Wrights' statement quite beyond dispute.
It is worthy of note, in the interests of justice, that the Brazilian has made better provision for launching an aeroplane than the Wrights did last year. His machine, when on the ground, is supported by wheels. When the Wrights were ready to start, theirs was arranged crosswise on a pair of rails. To overcome the friction between these and the lower part of the frame, it was necessary to rely on external aid. Their aeroplane would not lift itself clear of the rails until it had been pushed forward twenty-five or thirty feet by hand, whereas the one which has just created a sensation in Europe will advance without assistance as soon as the propellers begin to revolve and will rise shortly afterward unhelped. Strictly speaking, then, "Nature" is quite right when it says that Santos-Dumont's machine is the first to raise Itself by means of its own power.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1906-11-20/ed-1/seq-6/#date1=1770&index=18&rows=20&words=aeroplane+Dumont+Santos+Santos-Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=santos+dumont+aeroplane&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:11, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Evening Star. [volume], December 09, 1906, Sunday star, Page 5, Image 53
The Sunday Star, Washington, D. C., December 09, 1906—Part 4.
(Copyright, 1906, by John Elfreth Watkins.)
SANTOS-DUMONT is the first man to have performed aerial flight with a self-propelled machine heavier than the air which it displaced. He has solved a problem which has caused inventive geniuses to burn the midnight oil and toss restlessly upon their couches since centuries before the dawn of the Christian era. During three millenniums or more ambitious men have broken their hearts and their heads seeking the great goal which this fearless Brazilian has won within the past few weeks.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1906-12-09/ed-1/seq-53/#date1=1770&index=0&rows=20&words=aerial+air+displaced+DUMONT+first+flight+have+heavier+machine+man+performed+propelled+SANTOS+SANTOS-DUMONT+self+self-propelled+than+which&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=SANTOS-DUMONT+is+the+first+man+to+have+performed+aerial+flight+with+a+self-propelled+machine+heavier+than+the+air+which+it+displaced&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Danville Intelligencer. [volume], January 04, 1907, Image 1
It remained for the world of 1906 to see the first mechanical navigation of the air from a standing start in a screw-propelled aeroplane. This was achieved by M. Santos-Dumont, at Paris, September 13. in his airship, the Bird of Prey.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn86053369/1907-01-04/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1770&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=aeroplane+Santos-Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=+aeroplanes+of+Santos+Dumont&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=7 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Flying Machines: practice and design – December, 1909, Page 54
Santos-Dumont, in November, 1906, with a petrol driven aeroplane machine, accomplished a short flight successfully, and so is probably the first man carried on a mechanically propelled flying machine. He accomplished a flight of 200 ft. at about 8 ft. from the ground, and secured the Archdeacon prize cup.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark%3A%2F13960%2Ft7sn02698&seq=70 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:13, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
The Democratic Advocate. [volume], January 11, 1907, Image 1
Address By President Armstrong.
William H. Armstrong, former president of the Maryland State Turnpike Association, delivered the following address at the meeting held in Hagerstown on December 29:
“In the near future, there may float in the ocean of air above us, simulachres of those winged monsters of the paleozoic age, that lived by the shores of nameless lakes and left their ‘footprints in the sands of time.' These griffins of the sky will be the aeroplanes of Santos Dumont, and may be the evolution ary successors of the horse, the automobile and the trolley. They will carry their freight, in cars less costly, against a material less resistant than earth or water and be operated at an expense less than the vehicles now used by man.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85038292/1907-01-11/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1770&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=aeroplanes+Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=14&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=Dumont+aeroplane&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=10 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:14, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Expand?

Latest comment: 9 months ago31 comments6 people in discussion

Hey, Herostratus, I happened to notice you above. For quite some time I've been meaning to expand this article, and I've got the following on my shelf:

  • Alberto Santos-Dumont Barros, Henrique Lins de. 1986.
  • Santos-Dumont and the conquest of the air, tr. by Luiz Victor Le Cocq d'Oliveira. Napoleão, Aluízio, 1945.
  • Santos-Dumont; a study in obsession. Wykeham, Peter. 1962
  • Man flies : the story of Alberto Santos-Dumont, master of the balloon, conqueror of the air / Nancy Winters. 1998.
  • Wings of madness : Alberto Santos-Dumont and the invention of flight / Paul Hoffman 2003

Are you interested in making a push on this? It will take some real work. Of course, anyone else watching who wants to help, please speak up. EEng 15:45, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Uh jeez what kind of shelf do you have? I've got nothing here. But anything I can do, sure, this person was very important. Herostratus (talk) 20:13, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
I've had these books for a year+ (libraries are very accommodating now -- they seem gratified anyone wants books at all these days) but I never have got up the fortitude to get started. Several of the above are full-length bios so it will take some investment of time. I thought that by semi-committing myself with someone else (i.e. you) that might get me off my butt. I'll be back in touch sometime in the next 1 to 10 months. Perhaps in the meantime you could poke around for additional images? EEng 20:22, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
@EEng: I extracted a lot of images from the book My Airships for use in the Wikisource. Maybe it may help? Soon I should read again the book "Wings of Madness" to work in the Portuguese article. Erick Soares3 (talk) 15:27, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Wow, those are great! One thing that would be nice to have, though, is a picture of the interior of his Petropolis house; we've already got an exterior shot. EEng 16:23, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
@EEng: I found some interior shoots in Flickr, but they are copyrighted and this one in Creative Commons. I saw some and they show parts of the place and things from the exposition (like this 14-Bis replica). Sadly I don't live near the place to take some pictures. May you help with the transcription of "My Airships"? I bet that this book will help the article. Here's the Portuguese article about his house. I'm thinking about translating some related articles about him in English (already did this one). Erick Soares3 (talk) 22:24, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Well maybe someone watching here will be inspired to take some photos on a visit someday. What do you mean by help with the transcription of "My Airships"? If you mean translation, unfortunately I don't speak Portuguese. The "SD explaining" moving pictures are wonderful to see. EEng 23:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
@EEng:, I mean transcription! The book was first released in French and then in English during 1904 (only in the 80s in Portuguese) and you can work in the transcription here in Wikisource (only exist in Portuguese this 1918 book). You click in a page and then make the txt look exactly what is shown in the original archive in the right (if you need images, you just need to get them in the Commons). Is quite easy, but is a lot of pages (then, need a lot of work). There's already people working in the French and German versions. The "SD explaining" "video" are really wonderful! I recently found about this discovery and I'm impressed by the quality. What more wonderful things could be "lost"/stored in some dark corner in the world museums? Erick Soares3 (talk) 00:21, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Note that there's a Gutenberg transcription already [2]. I look forward to working with you. EEng 00:29, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
@EEng: I know, but for me the Wikisource helps more to insert the images in the right place. May you share the author page with anyone you know that likes the subject and may want to help? Anyway, this book should help to expand the page and if you're ok reading Google Translated text, the Portuguese one should be useful. I'm looking forward to working with you too! Erick Soares3 (talk) 01:13, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Good luck to the both of you. There seems to be very7 little about concerning his later life. And there is , I believe, nothing more in My Airships that can be added to the article.TheLongTone (talk) 13:24, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
@TheLongTone:, there's this HBO miniseries that looks going to be very correct with his history. The episodes 5 and 6 should depict his later life and the episode 1 looked very realistic side with his biography. Erick Soares3 (talk) 19:33, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Well, I've still got this article on my to-do list, but it's going to be some months at least before I can start. It doesn't look like the HBO series is available (yet) in the US, and I need to say in advance that though it looks quite good, we don't use productions like that as sources -- they take too many liberties. EEng 19:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
10 months and 1 ongoing pandemic later, the sources radiate mute rebuke from a bookshelf in my bedroom, and my good intentions remain. EEng 19:04, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
@EEng:, I just sent a message in your talk page! Erick Soares3 (talk) 01:30, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Nature – November 8, 1906, Page 35
The First “Manned” Flying Machine.
OCTOBER 23 of the present year will be remembered as a red-letter day in the history of flying machines, for it was on that day that the first flying machine, constructed on the “heavier than air” principle, successfully raised itself and its driver from the ground several feet, and transported itself by means of its own power over a distance of eighty yards.
In this his first successful flight with this machine. M. Santos Dumont is to be sincerely congratulated, for he has accomplished a performance which many workers in different parts of the world have been striving after for many years past and failed.
https://www.nature.com/articles/075035a0#:~:text=OCTOBER%2023%20of%20the%20present,itself%20by%20means%20of%20its 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:21, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
New-York Tribune. [volume], November 20, 1906, Page 6, Image 6
SANTOS-DUMONT ANTICIPATED.
A fresh reason for determining the amount of glory due to Santos-Dumont for his recent flights with an aeroplane is afforded by an article in the latest number of "Nature" to reach this country. In that periodical it is asserted that on October 23 "the first flying machine, constructed on the 'heavier than air' principle, successfully raised itself and its driver from the ground several feet, and transported itself by means of its own power over a distance of eighty yards." While that statement is probably correct, the merit of the performance can be rightly estimated only by a comparison with what Wilbur and Orville Wright, of Dayton, Ohio, have been able to accomplish.
Santos-Dumont has been at work on the aeroplane only about a year. Most of his aeronautic experiments were conducted with an entirely different class of airship, the self-propelled balloon. On the other hand, the Wright brothers have been identified with the aeroplane for at least four or five years and perhaps longer. In a letter to the Aero Club of America, last winter they told the results attained by them up to the close of 1905. So startling were their claims that in France and Germany their story was received with much skepticism. With a creditable desire to vindicate the honor of the country, The Scientific American addressed a circular letter of inquiry to seventeen persons who, according to the Wrights, had witnessed their aerial voyages. Twelve responses were received, one of them coming from Mr. Octave Chanute, the author of a well known work on aeronautic experiments and a man whose veracity no well informed foreigner or American would venture to question. The testimony of each of these witnesses was in substantial agreement with that of the others. Though now and then doubt would be expressed as to the exact date of a flight, the distance covered or some other detail, the general tenor of the letters seemed to put the truthfulness of the Wrights' statement quite beyond dispute.
It is worthy of note, in the interests of justice, that the Brazilian has made better provision for launching an aeroplane than the Wrights did last year. His machine, when on the ground, is supported by wheels. When the Wrights were ready to start, theirs was arranged crosswise on a pair of rails. To overcome the friction between these and the lower part of the frame, it was necessary to rely on external aid. Their aeroplane would not lift itself clear of the rails until it had been pushed forward twenty-five or thirty feet by hand, whereas the one which has just created a sensation in Europe will advance without assistance as soon as the propellers begin to revolve and will rise shortly afterward unhelped. Strictly speaking, then, "Nature" is quite right when it says that Santos-Dumont's machine is the first to raise Itself by means of its own power.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1906-11-20/ed-1/seq-6/#date1=1770&index=18&rows=20&words=aeroplane+Dumont+Santos+Santos-Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=santos+dumont+aeroplane&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Evening Star. [volume], December 09, 1906, Sunday star, Page 5, Image 53
The Sunday Star, Washington, D. C., December 09, 1906—Part 4.
(Copyright, 1906, by John Elfreth Watkins.)
SANTOS-DUMONT is the first man to have performed aerial flight with a self-propelled machine heavier than the air which it displaced. He has solved a problem which has caused inventive geniuses to burn the midnight oil and toss restlessly upon their couches since centuries before the dawn of the Christian era. During three millenniums or more ambitious men have broken their hearts and their heads seeking the great goal which this fearless Brazilian has won within the past few weeks.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1906-12-09/ed-1/seq-53/#date1=1770&index=0&rows=20&words=aerial+air+displaced+DUMONT+first+flight+have+heavier+machine+man+performed+propelled+SANTOS+SANTOS-DUMONT+self+self-propelled+than+which&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=SANTOS-DUMONT+is+the+first+man+to+have+performed+aerial+flight+with+a+self-propelled+machine+heavier+than+the+air+which+it+displaced&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:26, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Danville Intelligencer. [volume], January 04, 1907, Image 1
It remained for the world of 1906 to see the first mechanical navigation of the air from a standing start in a screw-propelled aeroplane. This was achieved by M. Santos-Dumont, at Paris, September 13. in his airship, the Bird of Prey.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn86053369/1907-01-04/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1770&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=aeroplane+Santos-Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=+aeroplanes+of+Santos+Dumont&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=7 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:27, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
The Morris Tribune. [volume], September 29, 1906, Image 7
KEEPING TAB ON THE WORLD
Concluded from page 2.
Santos Dumont's Mechanical Flight.
Although M. Santos-Dumont in his new aeroplane, the Bird of Prey, was able to traverse the air at Paris only a distance of thirty-seven feet before his ship came to the ground with a crash, nevertheless the test is regarded as one of great importance because it was the first time an airship had ever left the earth unaided.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn91059394/1906-09-29/ed-1/seq-7/#date1=1770&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=aeroplane+Dumont+Santos+Santos-Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=15&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=santos+dumont+aeroplane&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Flying Machines: practice and design – December, 1909, Page 54
Santos-Dumont, in November, 1906, with a petrol driven aeroplane machine, accomplished a short flight successfully, and so is probably the first man carried on a mechanically propelled flying machine. He accomplished a flight of 200 ft. at about 8 ft. from the ground, and secured the Archdeacon prize cup.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark%3A%2F13960%2Ft7sn02698&seq=70 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
The Democratic Advocate. [volume], January 11, 1907, Image 1
Address By President Armstrong.
William H. Armstrong, former president of the Maryland State Turnpike Association, delivered the following address at the meeting held in Hagerstown on December 29:
“In the near future, there may float in the ocean of air above us, simulachres of those winged monsters of the paleozoic age, that lived by the shores of nameless lakes and left their ‘footprints in the sands of time.' These griffins of the sky will be the aeroplanes of Santos Dumont, and may be the evolution ary successors of the horse, the automobile and the trolley. They will carry their freight, in cars less costly, against a material less resistant than earth or water and be operated at an expense less than the vehicles now used by man.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85038292/1907-01-11/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1770&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=aeroplanes+Dumont&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=14&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=Dumont+aeroplane&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=10 2001:1284:F514:3D8A:1A3:45B9:B136:8FBF (talk) 18:29, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
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