Talk:Alcatraz (disambiguation)

Requested move 12 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Alcatraz (disambiguation) → Alcatraz – I believe in reading recent discussions (see RM 3 Jan 2022, RfD 20/27 Dec 2021), that there is no primary for the term "Alcatraz", mostly because it is alternately used to mean either the famous prison, the fort that predates it, the island they were built upon, or other topics. Editors should be avoiding use of this unclear shortcut, as evidenced by quite a few incoming links to the primary term which do not agree with the destination of the current redirect now pointing to the island article. Putting the disambiguation at primary will require some long overdue cleanup, but will prevent (via bot notifications) future use of this link as a lazy shortcut - ensuring readers get to the proper destination immediately. -- Netoholic @ 04:15, 12 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 05:55, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Showiecz (talk) 06:02, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nomination and Showiecz. There are 25 entries listed upon the Alcatraz (disambiguation) page with no indication that the island's renown exceeds the combined notability of the other 24 entries, especially including that of the prison. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:52, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
• The fort is likely a PTM and the prison is on the island so DABCONCEPT probably applies per the RFD. Links that are clearly intended for something else can be fixed by BPAT rather than having every link flagged of which some may be unclear which they refer to. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:35, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
• Meh. Despite the recent RFD, the prison is the primary topic for the term "Alcatraz" by any reasonable definition, so the base name should redirect to the prison's page, not the island. Hopefully this will get us closer to recognizing that. Calidum 15:12, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose This feels a bit like a solution in search of a problem that ultimately hurts, rather than aids, reader navigation. Alcatraz island, where Alcatraz currenlty directs, seems to get around 2,000 or so page views a day. The DAB page gets less than 10. Clearly the overwhelming majority of readers are ending up where they intend to, or are searching for the prison and clicking direct to that, and we should not be adding hurdles that make this more difficult.--Yaksar (let's chat) 15:14, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• We also might want to ping the participants of those recent redirect discussions to make sure they have an opportunity to weigh in -- I'll try to get to that if I have time unless someone does before me (and others may know how to do so more efficiently).--Yaksar (let's chat) 15:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per Yaksar, and agree with Calidum that the prison should be primary. Ten views a day for the DAB page seem almost accidental, no need to increase those on purpose. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:20, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  @Randy Kryn and Calidum: - If you believe that the prison should be primary, there is no better way to take steps toward that than by supporting this move, disambiguating all, cleaning up the bad incoming links, and waiting some time to get a clearer picture of the accurate page views for each topic, which could support your preference. Opposing this RM only on the grounds that it doesn't go the full way you want is counterproductive because the two recent discussions mean your preferred change is just not going to happen right now. The slim 10 views of the DAB page currently is probably a result of a lot of people being sent wrongly to the Alcatraz Island article due to this redirect. -- Netoholic @ 03:35, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose The RfD was closed less than 2 weeks ago, too soon to be discussing this again. 162 etc. (talk) 16:18, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  Opposing only on timing grounds is ridiculous. -- Netoholic @ 03:33, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Opening a new discussion when a consensus was already reached 9 days prior is ridiculous. 162 etc. (talk) 03:53, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

• @162 etc.: While related, this RM is not a repeat of the last discussion - it suggests a different handling than has been proposed before. -- Netoholic @ 05:33, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per comments at the RFD. There's no need to use the disambiguation page as a landing spot - the prison is very prominently linked in the Alcatraz Island article, so just use the overview article as the main article. See Ireland for example which does not drop to a disambiguation page immediately, but just discusses the island as a whole, with a prominent link to the state. SnowFire (talk) 21:46, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  The example of Ireland doesn't match. For one, that is an article at primary (Alcatraz is a redirect), and second, "Ireland" is the full and complete name for the geographical island, which is not the case for Alcatraz Island. -- Netoholic @ 03:33, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

  I don't see that as a substantive difference. My argument is more a preference to use a general wide topic overview article as the "base" article (regardless of whether it gets there from a redirect or not) - most of the entries on Alcatraz (disambiguation) are directly related to Alacatraz-the-island, including the prison. I think there'd be a better argument for a disambiguation page at the base name if the main uses had nothing to do with each other, which isn't the case here. SnowFire (talk) 14:22, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support, as per nom.Mozzie (talk) 11:04, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'm not usually a big fan of WP:DABCONCEPT like Football, because most of the time in those cases people are looking for a specific thing and the very broad article actually listed there is not helpful for them. In this case though, with interest in the island and the prison perhaps roughly equal (page views actually show an almost 2:1 lead for the island, although some of these will be people who simply typed "Alcatraz" and that's where they ended up) the Alcatraz Island article, which covers the whole history, is probably most useful to a casual newcomer who isn't sure what they want. And for those seeking the prison specifically, they're still just one hatnote click away. 10:49, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support. The prison is the primary topic, but this move is a reasonable stopgap. —  AjaxSmack  09:05, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. After thinking about this some more, I have changed my mind on this and agree that the island article, since it also includes the prison that is on the island, is a primary broad concept article. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:02, 29 January 2022 (UTC) Support. No clear primary topic here, but the island and the prison articles listed at the top of the DAB page as we do when there are two main topics in the form "Alcatraz usually refers to/Alcatraz may also refer to". Rreagan007 (talk) 06:18, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. The island is the broader topic which covers the prison in proper Wikipedia:Summary style and helps readers more than the disambiguation page. It has a majority of the page views. Adumbrativus (talk) 08:19, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.