Talk:Aldaman Gheza

Historicity

Assalamu alaykum wa rahmattulahi wa barakatuh @Goddard2000. I was wondering if this figure is really historical? Could you prove it please? Also, it seems that in Ingush folklore he's actually mentioned, although as an ethnic Ingush, therefore I think we could add this information in the article.

References

WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 14:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Waaleykum Salam @WikiEditor1234567123, i remember fact checking this article a while ago and i believe it was the Aitberov source that mentioned a document from 1651 that shows an alliance between Aldamov (Aldam Gazi) and the Turlovs which had the seal of the Aldam family (image of their castle and Kezenoy-am). He also talks about a Russian document that mentioned the Aldamov family and Gazi himself as "Kaziy" in 1649 and their territory Cheburdy (Cheberloy), i don't remember the exact page right now but you can find it if you google "Аваро-чеченские правители из династии Турловых и их правовые памятники pdf". Aldam Gazi is mentioned in Ingush folklore but the article already mentions specifically that he is a figure in "Chechen-Ingush" folklore. He was obviously an ethnic Chechen from the Makazhoy teip, a few Ingush folktale books calling him ethnic Ingush shouldn't be included. We know for a fact that he lived in east Chechnya and his castle "замок алдам гези" is still there, his ethnicity shouldn't be questioned here. The Yakovlev source only shows that Chechens and Ingush shared each other's folk tales in the older days, i believe Adin Surkho is also named Ingush in some Ingush folktales despite him being an ethnic Chechen from the Achaloy teip. Referring to them as Ingush on Wikipedia will only create confusion. Goddard2000 (talk) 16:24, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Let's not jump to the "obviously he was Chechen" as this is Wikipedia and notable point of views should be included in the article. Those 2 reliable sources I really found randomly, but I assure you there's probally more talking about him having Ingush ethnicity, if I have time, I will add even more if you want. Yakovlev mentions a folktale where Gazi, the son of Aldaman is Ingush. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 16:54, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Also, let's sort out the historical info and folklore info into two different sections named "Historicity" and "In Folklore". For example, this text in the "Political career" section looks nothing more than based on folklore and seriously needs reliable sources:

"After the expulsion of Kalmyks, Gheza started to fortify and strengthen strategic defenses of Chechnya and Ingushetia. He managed to oust the Kabardin princes from Ingushetia and set up fortifications all across the northern border such as in Ghezi-Kov (Gazi-yurt, Ingushetia), Ghezi-Yurt (Chernokozovo), Ghapke fortress (Mekenskaya). He also reinforced Dolakov (Psedakh) with warriors from East Chechnya. After the Chechens ousted the Kabardin princes, Gheza and the Karachay-Balkar became allies and as a sign of it sent several warriors to their lands. These warriors came to be the "Bilitli" (from clan Biltoy) and they became powerful lords and sometimes acted as co-rulers of Karachay."

I will try to improve this article and later will want to look into the Battle of Khachara (1667). WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 17:28, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

@WikiEditor1234567123 I suggest you read through the already posted sources in here before claiming this historical Chechen person is Ingush based on an Ingush folktale. He is mentioned in primary sources from 1649 as belonging to the "Cheburdy" (Cheberloy) which is an east Chechen society, another document from 1651 also located him there. You and I have already been through this path before when it came to outdated Ingush folktales, remember the Ingush list of battle articles and battle of Assa article? If we are to use folktale sources and consider them so notable then we can mention that the Ingush hero Egi is of Armenian descent which is mentioned in Ingush folktales but we both know that this doesn't correspond with modern historiography. For example even in your Yakovlev source a story is mentioned of how the founder of the Ingush and Chechen nation was an Arab from the Qurayshi tribe. I would like to see unbiased sources that claim Aldaman Gazi is ethnic Ingush, so far you have provided Yakovlev that reports dubious folktales and Zyazikov the former president of Ingushetia.

The historical and folklore info does not need to be separated as the part which is folklore is already mentioned as folklore, we could however mention the author who used this folklore and shorten the text a little while emphasizing why and how the author made these claims such as "According to Amin Tesaev several folktales speak of Aldaman Gheza fortifying borders of Chechnya and Ingushetia, he also compares toponyms such as Gazi-kov in Ingushetia and the former Ghezi-yurt (Chernokozovo) to the name of Aldaman Gheza". Besides this there are primary sources that mentioned Gazi as i mentioned before that speak of his political career. Amin Tesaev compares the folk tales to primary sources from 17th century/19th century and modern/historical toponyms. We could rewrite this article so it looks less like a fluid story. Goddard2000 (talk) 17:44, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Your criticism of Nikolai Yakovlev and Murat Zyazikov was really not needed, because even according to your logic (that is because the folklore are Ingush, then my sources are suddenly "biased") then Tesayev shouldn't be mentioned here as he doesn't even pass the neutrality test and not even that reliable. There's no point of having text about "battles with Kabardian princes over Psedakh" and others in political career as it paints an image of it being historical, how about we have everything folklore related in it's respective section as per my suggestion? Regarding origins of Gheza, I suggest making text such as:

"Some authors mention him as Chechen based on the folklore recorded in Chechnya (here you add your sources), others mention him as Ingush based on the folklore recorded in Ingushetia respectively (I add my sources). In historical documents he's mentioned as an feudal lord living in Cheberloy, of Aldamovich lineage (Aitberov as the source here)".

WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 18:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

@WikiEditor1234567123 I didn't criticize Yakovlev or Zyazikov, you misunderstood my point. I criticized using a folktale that merely says "Aldam is Ingush" and then use it to claim a historical person similarly to how one can use the story about Egi being an Armenian and include it in an article about Egi. The difference between Tesaev is that he uses primary and secondary sources to make his conclusions instead of relying on 1 dubious folktale. I understand though why you want to include Gazi as Ingush because this article includes toponyms of Ingushetia. So for the sake of not debating on an article that hardly gets 20 views per month i can agree to keeping the folktales to a minimum like i said before and removing texts such as "battles with Kabardian princes over Psedakh". There is no doubt of Gazi's ethnicity in my opinion and i can argue my point on this but i can agree to remove Ingushetia related stuff from this article to keep it more neutral. Should we settle on this? Goddard2000 (talk) 18:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The Ingush ethnicity should be mentioned because this figure is also prominent in Ingush folklore, Georgi Anchabadze mentions him as Ingush as well. What do you not agree with my wording:

"Some authors mention him as Chechen based on the folklore recorded in Chechnya (here you add your sources), others mention him as Ingush based on the folklore recorded in Ingushetia respectively (I add my sources). In historical documents he's mentioned as an feudal lord living in Cheberloy, of Aldamovich lineage (Aitberov as the source here)"

? In this wording it's mentioned that in Ingush folklore he's Ingush. What do you say? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 19:05, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Him being prominent in Ingush folklore does not mean he was an ethnic Ingush despite some of them claiming he was, like i said before using cherrypicked sources while ignoring important context is counter-productive and only creates confusion. Aldam Gazi has been located as living in Cheberloy in 2 primary sources from the 17th century which the Dagestani historian Aitberov studied and presented, one of them (1649) mentions him by name as Kazi. His clan and castle is still there to this day and Aitberov doesn't say he's not Chechen. In fact he says the Cheberloy are Vainakh and we both know that the Cheberloy are one of the 9 Chechen tukkhums (tribes) while they having nothing in common with Ingush.

Aitberov page 56: Соглашением чеберлоевских аристократов Алдамовичей

Aitberov page 36: вейнахское племя чеберлоевцев

Note that Aitberov does not refer to Aldam-Gazi or his family as any other ethnicity here.

Other researchers like Markovin who visited his castle and tower in 1950-60's wrote down the legends of his clan who said that Aldam came from "Nashkha" which is a Chechen clan and was the birth place of many Chechens. They didn't mention him being Ingush either.

Markovin page 254: Алдам считается выходцем из Нашаха

Source: https://dzurdzuki.com/download/severnyj-kavkaz-v-drevnosti-i-v-srednie-veka-red-markovin-v-i-1980/

Other Ingush ethnographers like Malsagov who recorded this folktale from both Ingush and Chechens noted that Chechens referred to him as "Nokhchi Kant" (Chechen boy) while the Ingush he interviewed mentioned no ethnicity. Also Malsagov clearly states that his settlement is in the Aldam-Gezi castle (Chechnya) on page 361-362 source: https://www.calameo.com/read/006483851768cebe29060.

Context and historical research is important, he was already mentioned in the article as a figure in Ingush folktale which are biased and untrustworthy all on their own because otherwise we would have to claim the Ingush are descended from Arabs. I see that you changed big parts of the article without coming to a consensus again. Goddard2000 (talk) 20:39, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

You went ahead and involved admin, I thought we could have continued our conversation without needing to do that. I will drop the whole ethnicity thing at this point, but I changed "big parts" according to the historicity of the figure. He wasn't a military figure, this is only mentioned in the folklore, so I instead changed the infobox to royalty, because he's a prince according to the 2 documents we know of. If you look into my edits, I didn't add Ingush ethnicity text that I suggested here in the talk page and thought that you wouldn't mind me improving the lead-section including the Ingush translation. How about we continue without involving the admin? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 08:20, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to discuss again and again with you over trivial matters such as the ethnicity of known historical Chechens just because of some outdated Ingush folktale that you found. Just like the other times when we for weeks debated over random Ingush folktales that you gave undue weight like the ones you used here. You write now that you only made small changes yet you ignore the fact that you added the "Ingush people" category to this article. It seems admins have to be involved because if they aren't we are always going in circles debating over what some Ingush man said 100 years ago while ignoring important context. Goddard2000 (talk) 15:05, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Folkloric battles

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmattulahi wa barakatuh @Goddard2000. The article contains folkloric battles, like Chechens defeating Kabardians in Ingushetia as well as claims that villages like Gazi-Yurt were build by Oaldama Ghäza. I suggest removing these serious claims because they're not supported by reliable and neutral sources. Incase you don't know what paragraph I'm talking about, it's this:

After the expulsion of the Kalmyks, Gheza started to fortify and strengthen strategic defenses of Chechnya and Ingushetia. He managed to oust the Kabardian princes from Ingushetia and set up fortifications all across the northern border such as in Ghezi-Kov (Gazi-yurt, Ingushetia), Ghezi-Yurt (Chernokozovo), Ghapke fortress (Mekenskaya). He also reinforced Dolakov (Psedakh) with warriors from East Chechnya. After the Chechens ousted the Kabardian princes, Gheza and the Karachay-Balkar became allies and as a sign of it sent several warriors to their lands. These warriors came to be the "Bilitli" (from clan Biltoy) and they became powerful lords and sometimes acted as co-rulers of Karachay.[3]

The campaign to the west was successful [...]

Seriously, Biltoy co-rulers of Karachay?? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 10:21, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Waaleykum Salam, yeah sure we can delete this part like i said before. The Biltoy part i looked up a while ago, there seems to be hints of this being true since there are even Karachay sources that talk about "Bilitili" being co-rulers and high nobility in Karachay (although they don't mention that they are related to Biltoy). The term Bilitili is only noted in two places, Karachay and Chechnya (biltoy), even Reineggs in 1780 placed their settlement near Kumbeley river near Nazran where they settled and said their language is Chechen. So the theory that they also reached Karachay lands is not crazy in my opinion, either way there is no solid evidence at the moment so yeah we can delete it. Goddard2000 (talk) 11:10, 26 August 2023 (UTC)