Talk:Aleksandar Đurić/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Cloudz679 (talk · contribs) 15:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I will review this article. Comments to follow. C679 15:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Lead

• What is "a Bosnia-born Singaporean professional footballer of Serbian descent."? Ref doesn't say anything of the sort, according to the infobox he was born in SFR Yugoslavia. The first sentence of any article holds a lot of weight so it is important that it is accurate. A mish-mash of "nationality" claims is not an ideal way to start off.
• Per WP:LEAD, this should be a "summary of [the article's] most important aspects". The current lead is not concise enough.
• link "coach"
• "At international level, he debuted for Singapore at the age of 37 years and 89 days in 2007 and won the 2012 ASEAN Football Championship before his retirement the same year." ambiguous. One sentence in the lead for a player with a 54-game international career is insufficient.

 Done Rephrased the sentence on nationality to eliminate potential confusion. Further details of his heritage can be found under "Early life" section. Shortened the lead. Let me know if it is concise enough. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Early life

• "Đurić was born in Lipac in the outskirts of Doboj." where is that?
• "Đurić excelled in football and kayaking among other sports at a young age. He picked up football playing on the streets with an old, stitched, Adidas ball. The childhood supporter of Red Star Belgrade spent his formative years in the youth teams of his hometown club FK Sloga Doboj as a goalkeeper and later, as a midfielder." is it important that it was Adidas? Seems like advertising to me. Also very difficult to verify. Wording in the Bosnian source suggested he played other sports but not that he excelled, which seems to be POV.
• "He also took up kayaking at the age of 12 at the advice of the doctor treating his growth disorder of the chest." doesn't make sense, kayaking is already mentioned in the previous sentences.
• "He became junior kayaking champion of Yugoslavia when he was 15 and by age 17, he was ranked 8th in the world.[18]" is there a better reference for these achievements, e.g. independent of the subject?
• "Đurić was drafted into the military at the age of 17 where he became an officer during his service. With impending civil war, his father wanted either him or his brother to leave the country in order to preserve the family line.[18]" ref doesn't seem to support any of this
• "He was instructed to leave his hometown at the age of 20 as he was younger and a sportsman; his brother Milan stayed behind, fighting in the war for 5 years.[19]" can't see anything at the reference about his age when he left his hometown or how long his brother fought.
• "With just 300 Deutsche Marks on him, he left for Serbia where he played in the second division for one season and then Sweden, where he trained with AIK Solna and was offered refugee status which he rejected. The breakup of Yugoslavia left him stranded in Hungary without a recognised passport. He wandered through the cafes and restaurants of Szeged before a family offered him accommodation and a trial at local club Szeged LC in the second tier of the Hungarian football league." WP:OR?

 Done Removed reference to Adidas and added/replaced references. There are no official sources for his kayaking achievements beyond a couple of references. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

1992 Summer Olympics

• "A few months later" is not a good way to begin a new section. When?
• "After convincing them of his credentials with a phone call to the Olympic Committee, the border guards helped him persuade someone to take him half-way to Slovenia, where he managed to get another ride to the Ljubljana airport and flew to Barcelona." +ref
• "one of Bosnia's 10 Olympic pioneers" exactly the same wording as the source
• link "repechages"

 Done Rephrased, +ref. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Australia

• Strange title for this section, which starts "Đurić signed for Szeged LC after the Olympics, spending three seasons in Hungary"
  • +ref
  • Seems to have played for Szeged for two seasons
  • His first club according to the infobox, Sloga Požega, is not mentioned at all in the prose
• "An associate who knew Frank Arok, a retired Serbian footballer of Hungarian descent and former Australia coach, arranged for a trial in Australia and in 1994, he moved to South Melbourne Hellas where he played as a defender." a friend of a friend? sentence is ambiguous and its meaning should be clarified
• "He had short spells with other National Soccer League clubs such as Port Melbourne Sharks, Gippsland Falcons, Heidelberg United, West Adelaide and well as a brief stint with Chinese side Locomotive Shanshan." So that's a full summary of five years in Australia? "short spells" should be reworded as spell has a meaning in Australian English of "a period of rest from work"

 Done Moved sentence on Szeged to previous section. Rephrased ambiguous wording. His career in Australia is rather unremarkable and there are no significant links to his ~5 years found. Note that he did not speak much about his time in Australia in his various interviews. It was only after moving to Singapore and his conversion to a striker that his prominence rose. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Tanjong Pagar United and the S.League

• First sentence belongs in the previous paragraph, needs a ref.
• "He received offers from Hong Kong and Singapore but chose to move to the latter where he began his S.League career with Tanjong Pagar United." +ref
• Ref about playing as a striker should be linked to part 4 (http://www.redsports.sg/2008/10/02/aleksandar-duric-football-part-4/) and not the current part 1.

 Done Added refs. Expanded RedSports interview into their respective parts for easy access to refs. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Home United

• The first two sentences are not about Home United. It looks like these three (this and the previous two) paragraphs could be made into one, generally themed on his career in Australia, with of course short periods in China and Singapore. The final two sentences could be moved to the next section.
• "he won the 2010 Singapore Cup in front of a 45,000 crowd" according to Wikipedia his club lost in the round of 16 of that competition. Did you mean 2000? +ref

 Done Merged Tanjong Pagar United and Home United sections under Australia section so that part flows better. Fixed error to wrong year of Cup. Added ref. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Geylang United

• "He fired them" prose
• "to plunder 98 goals" prose
• "He joined an exclusive club of S.League players who have scored 100 domestic goals in the 2003 season." ambiguous, reword
• "powerhouse" seems to be POV
• "Đurić left his mark in the competition" prose
• what is "an upset win"?
• "a strong showing" POV
• "a narrow 1-0 defeat" prose

 Done Rephrased points above. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Singapore Armed Forces

• "which was convinced to sign him" which signed him
• "achieving the Double" which is…?
• "Đurić's prolific form was recognised with the S.League Player of the Year award in 2007 and 2008." +ref
• "broke former Warriors striker Mirko Grabovac's record" is that a club record or league record? Are the Warriors the same club, or another one?
• "with a brace" prose
• "In September 2009, Đuric initially agreed" agreed
• "Had he signed for Sriwijaya, he would have joined fellow national team players Precious Emuejeraye, Baihakki Khaizan, Mustafić Fahrudin, Noh Alam Shah and Muhammad Ridhuan in an exodus from the S.League to the Indonesian leagues." so what, he didn't

 Done Rephrased, refs added. Removed sentence on player exodus. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Tampines Rovers

• "evergreen striker" prose
• "He returned to winning ways after the first season" prose
• "three consecutive S.League titles with Tampines Rovers from 2011 to 2013." +ref
• brace, again
• "the first player to reach a milestone 300th goal" +ref
• "He collected his third Player of the Year award in 2012 and finished joint league top-scorer with Moon Soon-Ho in 2013." +ref. all these achievements need to be properly referenced
• "The veteran player relinquished his captaincy to teammate Mustafić Fahrudin, coincidentally another naturalised Singaporean footballer of Serbian descent, in 2013." +ref, but is it relevant?

 Done Rephrased, refs added. Removed sentence on his captaincy succession. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

International career

• "to start Đurić on the bench" prose
• "he was pushed into the starting eleven" prose
• "Singapore progressed to the third round of the Asian Qualifying Tournament for the first time" +ref
• "bagging goals against Lebanon" prose
• "Đurić made his first ASEAN Football Championship in 2008" made?
• "the team suffered an early exit" prose
• "Đurić began the 2012 tournament as second-choice forward but following an injury to midfielder Hariss Harun, he was recalled into the first eleven at left midfield." +ref
• Fn23 is used for him being the oldest scorer in the ASEAN tournament but the linked pdf on p18 seems to discuss Japan's World Cup
• "He retired from international football with a record of 27 goals in 54 international appearances in five years as Singapore won their fourth ASEAN title and Đurić his first international honours.[49]" ref doesn't seem to support the sentence

 Done Rephrased, refs added. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Personal life

• fn24 mentions his father spent time in prison but this is not reflected in the Wikipedia article
• Exact date of his father's death isn't necessary
• "Đurić only managed to see his father in almost 10 years, days before his death. He has an older brother, Milan." prose
• "keeps up with his grueling fitness regime even in the off-season." prose
• The section mentions two sons but later mentions one was adopted
• link "S$"

 Done Rephrased, link added. See no relevance to add his father's time in jail. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Career statistics

• Statistics for Hungary, Australia and China are missing
• Club statistics are only referenced for league games at national-football-teams. The other reference for stats does not give a breakdown like we have on the Wikipedia article and does not appear to be a reliable source either.
• It is stated the inaugural league cup was held in 2007 but the stats table indicates there was no competition that year
• International goals should not be automatically hidden
• Why are "score" and "result" given for international goals?
• Why are national football teams overlinked in this section?

 Done Added statistics for his non-Singaporean clubs. Footnotes at end of table clearly states that SAFFC withdrew from the 2007 Singapore Cup due to pre-season commitments. Removed wikitable collapsibility. "Score" indicates the stage in the tie when the goal is score; "result" being the final score Example. Reduced linkage to national teams.

Honours

• Lacks referencing

 Done Added refs. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Notes

• The referencing in the notes does not follow the standards used elsewhere

Please elaborate. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

"Prior to the 2011 season, milestone goals include both S.League and Singapore Cup goals. The FAS amended it to include only league goals in 2011. [1]" – this should be referenced consistently with the rest of the article. C679 20:31, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I did make an attempt before this review to add in the ref tags as per referencing guide used on the other refs but it would come off right. If you could show me an example in another article or the relevant referencing guide on wikipedia, do let me know so I can fix it. LRD NO (talk) 00:23, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

 Done Amended the referencing style to that of note 57 on this version of this article, as quoted as an example under referencing for beginners. LRD NO (talk) 01:17, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

External links

• What is a youtube video doing in the external links?

 Done Removed said link. LRD NO (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

That's all for now. Article now on hold to allow time for improvements.C679 07:41, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• The lead must meet WP:LEAD. There are three points to address, one, there is a maximum of four paragraphs; two, "He is the most successful player in S.League history" does not reflect anything in the main body of the text; three, his international career is still glossed over

  Done Summarised it into four paragraphs - introduction, Olympics + club career, international career (expanded) and coaching career (with future expansion in mind). LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• He was born in SFR Yugoslavia

  Done LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• He played for one season in the Serbian second division, but this doesn't appear to be in the infobox.

  Identity of this club prior to Szeged is ambiguous at best. Data at National Football Team lists a Macedonian club. Other sources list Sloga Pozega, a Serbian club. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• What leagues did he play in in Australia?

  National Soccer League, Victorian Premier League and Victoria state league with different clubs. Unless your intention is to leave the league entries blank. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• "They met DPMM in the second round of the Eastern qualifying zone where Đurić scored once in the home leg and twice in the away leg as Geylang progressed 7–0 on aggregate. They met Chinese Jia-A League club Shanghai Shenhua in the final qualifying stage, exiting 5–1 on aggregate with Đurić scoring a consolation goal in the second leg." +ref, using "they met" twice in succession should be avoided

  Done Rephrased, added refs. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• "Đurić's goal-scoring exploits did not escape the league's most successful side, Singapore Armed Forces, which signed him in November 2004." prose

  Done Rephrased. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• "scoring 129 goals in just 148 league appearances" this is in the stats table but the referenced national-football-teams page lists 32 games in 2009, which would make a total of 150 league appearances. The total of 148 is supported by the other ref, but what makes blogspot a reliable source?

  Same thing about reliable sources could be argued with almost all databases and websites. The infamous Transfermarkt aside, National Football Team missed out on his Chinese club Locomotive Shanshan and has incomplete data on his international goals/appearances. The issue with incomplete data is similarly seen in player profiles under Soccerway and Soccerbase. The comprehensive database at RSSSF, which world body FIFA bases its Century Club on, has its own errors as evidenced by the missing international goals for Indra Sahdan (tagged with refs) and this. I doubt there will ever be a case of "absolute" reliability. In this case, there is the fortune of having two sources to work with, offering a high degree of similarity and a person who has been following the S.League and compiling data faithfully. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

  Removed the word "just" in case I get called on for prose. Again. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

  Further expansion on reliable sources and NFT. NFT encourages its readers to report mistakes, of which there must be a lot. Most details are posted without references and the data was added by the admin, no questions asked. Yet a FA like Thierry Henry and GAs like Dennis Bergkamp and Milan Baroš have no issues with NFT as a reliable source despite the published data being user-generated. What makes NFT more acceptable than that S.League blogspot beyond their website layout and url then? LRD NO (talk) 01:11, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

  Done Career stats amended to reflect that of more established NFT source; ref to blogspot removed and numbers in article updated. I do not wish for this point of contention to potentially ruin the effort that has gone into this article. LRD NO (talk) 04:45, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Fn40 has the name Today which is insufficient to allow readers to verify the information. You could add the city of publication.

  Done Added link. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• "He scored his first goal in the AFC Champions League group stage against Suwon Bluewings on 19 May 2009." +ref

  Done Rephrased, added ref. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• "joint league top-scorer" prose

  He is the joint top scorer with another player. Listing him as solely "top scorer" would be inaccurate and non-representative of the actual situation. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Many football GA biographies have an international statistics section, e.g. Dennis Bergkamp#International.œ

  Many, but not all, isn't it? Anyway, a contrast with Bergkamp's international statistics section shows the Duric article only lacks a table listing number of appearances by year; Duric article has the same list of international goals, with verifiable links to each goal. The list at National Football Teams is incomplete to be used as a reference. I will add the table if I find a good source. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• International section lacks detail about the tournaments he played in. It also jumps around with information about 2010 being given before 2008.

  Everything is in chronological order as far as I can see. Assuming you are talking about the 2010 World Cup qualifiers, the matches took place in 2007. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

  Done Expanded on his international tournaments. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• NFT lists his first club as Sloga Skopje for 92/93, Wikipedia article currently shows the Hungarian club at this time.

  As mentioned under point 3, there is ambiguity on his clubs before Szeged. Will add club(s) +refs if there is future data rather than commit to an erroneous entry at present. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Ref needed for Chinese side Locomotive Shanshan in 1997

  Done Added ref. LRD NO (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

C679 06:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Most of the criteria are now met. Regarding the statistics, firstly there is a discrepancy between the infobox and the statistics section, easily fixed. I think this is due to one being updated without the other. Secondly, the stats not relating to the league do not appear to be easily verifiable. If we take the league cup reference and check 2009 (when he was at Armed Forces), his club seems to have played only four matches in the competition but he is credited with five appearances. 2012 seems to show 2 matches for Tampines and no goals for the player, but he is credited with 4 appearances and 2 goals. For 2013 there is only one match of the club detailed, however he is credited with 3 appearances and 3 goals. I haven't yet checked the other competitions from that source, but of course it is necessary that the Wikipedia article reflects reliable sources. C679 08:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Fixed the infobox data. Oversight on my part.
• 2009 Singapore League Cup - Armed Forces (aka SAFFC, Warriors FC) played a total of five matches, two in the group stage and three in the knockout stage. According to the League Cup ref, Duric scored 2 goals in 5 matches.[1][2][3][4][5]
• 2012 Singapore League Cup - Tampines played a total of four matches, two in the group stage and two in the knockout stage. Duric scored 2 goals in 4 matches.[6][7][8][9]
• 2013 Singapore League Cup - Tampines played a total of three matches, two in the group stage and one in the knockout stage. Duric scored 3 goals in 3 matches.[10][11][12]

Hope that clears up any doubts. LRD NO (talk) 09:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry but there are outstanding concerns. The links at the article do not link to the extra matches you posted in this review. Also with the "normal" cup, the reference used only goes back to 2007 but the stats table dates back to 2000. I'm not doubting the accuracy of the stats but I must be able to verify them, or the review cannot proceed. C679 10:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Career stats status Added soccerway links for AFC Champions League (2009, 2014) and AFC Cup (2011–2014). Other seasons of AFC competitions (in blue) were unavailable and obtained through previous newspaper archives. Official data for AFC competitions prior to 2013 were taken offline and inaccessible.

Compilation of Singapore Cup stats prior to 2009 are only available through the blogspot. Please refer to points under "scoring 129 goals in just 148 league appearances" section of this review; it's the last option I took. Kindly advise me if you have better ideas short of me going back to the newspaper archives and spending a small fortune and significant time compiling and referencing individual matches then setting up a NFT-esque website as the oft-cited reliable source. LRD NO (talk) 13:51, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Removed 2002 ACL, 2007 and 2008 AFC Cup stats pending citation/ reliable source(s). A trip down to the archives revealed no compilation of any sorts. There's probably nothing else I could do and I'm not holding my breath as to any probable outcomes. LRD NO (talk) 06:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Removed all unreferenced stats. Hope you're happy now. LRD NO (talk) 08:42, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• Still unable to verify stats. Soccerway links used to support stats link to pages on the competition's results and do not appear to contain player data. You can click on results and see goalscorers in any particular game, but a user cannot possibly know which games the player took part in. As mentioned before, there is a discrepancy between the sleague.com league cup data available at the linked pages and the data presented in the article here. This is still evident. It's clear here that different sites propose different statistics, if this is really the case it wouldn't hurt to add a note to reflect that in an appropriate place. Also in the case where the totals are zeroes it would probably be better to note that information is not available rather than stating he didn't play, which may not be accurate. One more thing, "Charity Shield" is mentioned in the honours, but not at all in the prose and lacks any references. C679 10:02, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• For Soccerway, select year of competition (top right), then select the results for the relevant club/season. Click on the score and it shows starting line-ups and scorers.

• This is insufficient. However if you click on the "domestic cups" link at http://sg.soccerway.com/players/aleksandar--duric/24343/ you can see his league cup and national cup stats since 2010, so that is good enough. C679 11:46, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Soccerway link is used for his AFC Champs League and AFC Cup stats. Take his 2013 AFC Cup stats for example. Selecting year 2013 and group stage shows the results. Clicking on say, the Tampines 2-3 Selangor result brings up the line-up and scorers.

Amended the referencing to reflect competition refs. LRD NO (talk) 12:04, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• Sleague.com League Cup data is accurately presented in the table. I have personally verified all entries pertaining to League Cup results. The exact links were provided for your ease of use in the previous posts.

• Regarding the league cup, which was already discussed, I can now see the "extra matches". For some reason the team name is not matched with the search function on the webpage, but I was able to use the Wikipedia season article to cross-reference the dates and it is ok. C679 11:46, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• It would help if you give an example of "different sites propose different statistics".

We covered this above re 148 or 150. C679 11:46, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I had removed the blogspot link a few days ago so there should be no issues with this. LRD NO (talk) 12:04, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• Added footnote on unavailable data (-) as per reliable sources guidelines.
• Added charity shield refs.

LRD NO (talk) 11:18, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• Well, getting over the line was a little more complicated but I feel this article now meets the criteria. LRD NO, thank you for your unrelenting hard work in making this possible. C679 12:43, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your time and dedication to this review. I've learned much from my first GA nomination considering I'm relatively new to Wikipedia. LRD NO (talk) 12:46, 17 April 2014 (UTC)