Talk:Alexandropol uezd

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Requested move 5 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Alexandropol Uezd ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

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Aleksandropol Uyezd → Alexandropol Uyezd – Trying to fix a spelling mistake in the name, but it's already a redirect Nunuxxx (talk) 13:08, 5 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 01:27, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

• the "քս" spelling given in the article corresponds to "ks" in the official transliteration, not to "x". Do you have reliable sources to support the use of the "x" in the transliteration of this particular name? Dr. Vogel (talk) 13:25, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

  The original name of the district is in Russian and uses a Cyrillic transliteration of a latin "x" (there is no phonetic x letter in Russian) which forms as "кс", which is a foreign sound in Russian (as a native-speaker), ergo the use of "ks" instead of the original "x" in the article is a redundant and clunky double transliteration, especially given the district was named for the wife of the Tsar, Alexandra Feodorovna (Charlotte of Prussia), also whose commonly-appearing English name uses an "x" rather than a "ks". If further proof is required, I can cite English sources which use Alexandropol instead of the redundant double-transliterated "Aleksandropol", though I believe the linguistic explanation should be sufficient. Thanks. Nunuxxx (talk) 13:41, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

  The sources cited in the article use the official transliteration "ks", not "x". I wouldn't feel comfortable making this move against what the sources cited say. Perhaps you could edit the article and cite reliable sources that support the spelling that you believe is correct. Dr. Vogel (talk) 13:51, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

  The sources which were cited in the article previously were mainly Russian, thus the confusion arose regarding the mistranslation of the name, however, I have since cited 6 various English sources, all of which explicitly use the correct translation "Alexandropol" in regards to the district/uyezd. The sources are from reputed and renown historians on the subject of modern Transcausian history, Richard G. Hovannisian and Firuz Kazemzadeh. Nunuxxx (talk) 14:49, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

  @DrVogel: Hello again, apologies for the ping, just noticed you hadn't replied since the discussion was moved here by Vaticidalprophet. To reiterate, I've cited 6 reputed and established sources which acknowledge the latin origin of name of the district, and thus accordingly and explicitly refer to it as "Alexandropol" with an "x" rather than with the redundant "ks", the latter only being supported in exact transliterations of the individual Cyrillic characters which does not correspond to the districts's commonly appearing English name as evidenced in the English sources I've cited. Thanks. Nunuxxx (talk) 13:36, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Vaticidalprophet 14:58, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

• Move to Aleksandropol uezd, per normal romanization of Russian, normal Russian and most common English capitalization with l.c. uezd, and conforming to the main article title’s spelling uezd. This supports WP:TITLECON. This name appears very rarely, and there is no clear single WP:COMMONNAME.
  • Google Advanced Book Search, per WP:SET (hide “Tools” to see totals):
    • "Aleksandropol uezd" -Wikipedia: 10 results
    • "Aleksandropol uyezd" -Wikipedia: 11 results
    • "Alexandropol uezd" -Wikipedia: 26 results
    • "Alexandropol uyezd" -Wikipedia: 6 results
  • Google Scholar Search
    • "Aleksandropol uezd" -Wikipedia: 3 results
    • "Aleksandropol uyezd" -Wikipedia: 0 results
    • "Alexandropol uezd" -Wikipedia: 2 results
    • "Alexandropol uyezd" -Wikipedia: 4 results

   —Michael Z. 20:58, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

  Mzajac What you're proposing would necessitate the updating of all the uyezd articles, hence would require a separate, more centralized move request or perhaps an RfC, this particular RM is about fixing spelling of "Alexandropol" with an "x" instead of a "ks" based on its common name from English language sources, which you've evidenced by the Google Advanced Book and Google Scholar searches you've linked. Nunuxxx (talk) 23:09, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

  Quite right. I just started talk:Uezd#Rename articles about uezds for consistency, and posted notes on all of the relevant country WikiProjects. I still think this move should follow the main article, but if it doesn’t in this RM then things will work out anyway. —Michael Z. 23:17, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

  (And one could argue the title should be romanized from Russian, Aleksandropolsky uezd or similar, since there isn’t a clear English COMMONNAME.) —Michael Z. 23:20, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

  Mzajac I believe it is clear that the English common name refers to the most commonly used name in English publications ranging from historical books to academic essays, the majority of Uyezd article editors have tacitly agreed with this approach as it makes more sense to the reader since they can attribute it to the name used in English publications without having to decipher Russian transliteration in article names, which has no place in English Wikipedia for the reasons stated above. Moreover, your proposed "-skiy" suffixes in article titles makes no sense as it is the Russian masculine adjective suffix, which is not required as there isn't such a mechanism in the English language, and transliterated Russian into Latin characters is clunky as it is and should be avoided unless referring to a unique term such as an "okrug".

  About your proposal of dropping the "y" in "uyezd", I can't see how that doesn't contradict your preference for exact transliteration, since the exact transliteration of the Russian term "уезд" is "uyezd": the Russian letter "е" is a phonetic "ye" sound, I think you may have mistaken it for the Russian letter "э" which is the phonetic "e" sound. Nunuxxx (talk) 23:52, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

  Foreign transliteration has a place in English, and you can find it in many reliable sources and in many Wikipedia article titles. I think the majority of article editors have simply gone with the flow by example, and a discussion might be a better gauge of what editors actually agree with. I believe you mean the most precise phonemic transcription (linguistics) might be uyezd (or ui͡ezd, uiezd, or ujezd, according to different systems). Maybe. But in academic and popular-academic English writing the modified LOC transliteration system is the most used, and as I’ve demonstrated in the other move request, uezd is the most common spelling of the subdivision type in English (e.g., clearly in publications since 1970, and by +77% in 2019, per Ngram). And though the sample is too small to be reliable, the results above attest that Ale*andropol uezd is probably the most common in this specific case, by 41 to 21. —Michael Z. 00:53, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

  Mzajac Thank you for the very articulate reply, I do agree many editors have "gone with the flow" of the status-quo regarding the spelling of uyezd. In-fact, I've consulted some academic sources including university published historical books, and there seems to be a preference towards "uezd", otherwise simply "district" or "county", therefore, whilst I may concur to a centralised adaptation of the uyezd articles to spell "uezd", (especially with a lower case "u" in the title of a specific uyezd), I am principally against the notion of using exact Cyrillic to Latin transliteration of the uyezd names in titles due to its unnecessary clunkiness and complete disuse in English-language academic and historical materials. In this Ngram search result for the uyezd of Alexandropol, you'll most academic and other publications are more partial to the English translation of the uyezd name as compared to their tacit rejection of otherwise. Nunuxxx (talk) 03:04, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

  Well your Ngram reminds me that this is named after a town, and the other spelling of the town is clearly more common. So I’m changing my vote to move to Alexandropol uezd. And I’m also okay if it’s moved to Alexandropol Uyezd for consistency with other articles pending the resolution of the other, broad proposal. —Michael Z. 04:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:COMMONNAME to support move

The common name for the Uyezd of Alexandropol is Alexandropol Uyezd as evidenced by the follow Search Engine Test:

Variants: Aleksandropol uezd (8), Aleksandropol uyezd (0), Alexandropol uezd (66), Alexandropol uyezd (71)

Searches:

Google Ngram Search

–All variants compared

Google Scholar Search

–"Aleksandropol Uezd": 3 results

–"Aleksandropol Uyezd": 0 results

–"Alexandropol Uezd": 2 results

–"Alexandropol Uyezd": 4 results

Google Advanced Book Search, per WP:SET (hide “Tools” to see totals):

–"Aleksandropol Uezd": 5 results

–"Aleksandropol Uyezd": 0 results

–"Alexandropol Uezd": 64 results

–"Alexandropol Uyezd": 67 results

Furthermore, per WP:RUS, uyezd is preferred over uezd, especially for consistency reasons across all the current WP uyezd articles. – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 05:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose  If you add -Wikipedia according to WP:SET you actually get 3, 0, 2, 3 results in Scholar, although the difference is immaterial. When I follow the Book Search links, add -Wikipedia and go to the last page of results according to WP:SET, I get about 5, about 30, about 78, and 6 results. Significantly different, but still a very small sample. As I said in the previous discussion above, I still think this is too small and unreliable a sample to base a clear finding of most commonly used name in reliable sources. I think Alexandropol with x is probably most common. I think Uezd is approximately as common in this specific name, it is WP:CONSISTENT with the main article Uezd, and see also talk:Uezd#Requested move 12 July 2021 where I demonstrated that uezd is the most common spelling in general. —Michael Z. 17:57, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

  By the way, English also uses Aleksandropolsky uyezd 3, and Alexandropol county 22, Aleksandropol county 5, Alexandropol province 92, and Aleksandropol province 245. —Michael Z. 19:08, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

  Also Leninakan uezd 3, Leninakan province 9. —Michael Z. 19:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

  Whilst I agree "Uezd" is generally more common than "Uyezd", as I mentioned above changing all such articles would require a more centralised RM due to the sheer volume of articles that all use "Uyezd" except this one. Furthermore, in the above discussion you also mentioned you would be okay with the article being moved to "Alexandropol Uyezd" pending the result of the inconclusive RM for all "Uyezd" articles to become "Uezd". As per consistency with WP:RUS, currently Uyezd is the correct transliteration for Wikipedia and is widely used as such – I'd recommend you take a look at the wikilinked uyezd articles in this list to demonstrate my point about uyezd's widespread usage in article titles.

  To clarify my position, until your RM on the Uezd talk page is successful, I support keeping all such articles consistent in using "Uyezd", not just for consistency, but especially to avoid confusion for the reader of these articles, lest they think that the Alexandropol Uezd somehow differs as an administrative unit to the adjacent Etchmiadzin Uyezd. Cheers – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 09:15, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

  WP:RUS is not a guideline, but an personal essay based on original research. It should be deprecated and an actual guideline developed.

  Your appear to be mistaken about your own search results over there, where Etchmiadzin uezd has the most results. —Michael Z. 12:58, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

  Not at all, the SET on Talk:Etchmiadzin Uyezd was simply determining which variant of Etchmiadzin was most commonly used, in which I combined the results of uezd and uyezd for the same variant as the question of uezd/uyezd is irrelevant and is a separate discussion. You haven't actually countered my other points except by solely deprecating WP:RUS – As I mentioned, I am not opposed to the article title Alexandropol Uezd in principle, my issue with it arises from that fact that it differs from the other articles which all use uyezd, therefore, its preferable to keep using uyezd for the sake of consistency with the other articles until a more centralised/systemic move prevails as I repeated above. – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 13:46, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

  I think it’s preferable to change them all to be WP:CONSISTENT with the main article and most common spelling uezd, except for individual cases where another clearly most common name is demonstrated. It does not require a centralized RM, but I started that one to gauge consensus.

  I misunderstood your summary over there, where you demonstrated that uezd is most common by 28 to 1 and should be changed in that article. —Michael Z. 14:06, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 4 July 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Procedural close. Page moved by nom with es of "Nunuxxx moved page Alexandropol Uezd to Alexandropol uezd: per consensus". P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 02:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

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Alexandropol Uezd → Alexandropol uezd – per WP:RUS and WP:COMMONNAME as detailed in the article's talk page consensus 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 05:38, 3 July 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. Judekkan (talk) 16:00, 10 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 10:31, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Note: as of 09:57, 15 July 2022, this request's target title was changed from Alexandropol Uyezd to the new target title shown above. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 10:23, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Polyamorph (talk) 20:11, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Content immediately below copied from WP:RM/TR:

• • This has previously been discussed at RM, so it is potentially controversial. See WP:PCM. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose  That is not the most WP:COMMONNAME used in reliable sources. It is not consistent with the main article Uezd. —Michael Z. 22:18, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
• Comment as requester – the WP:COMMONNAME between the current and proposed article titles is unequivocally the proposed title, "Alexandropol Uyezd", as proven by the extensive WP:SET results provided here. The proposed title is also compliant with WP:RUS unlike the current title, and would be consistent with all other uyezd articles of the Russian South Caucasus, see the articles of the uyezds of the Erivan Governorate which all use uyezd except for Alexandropol which uses uezd and serves only to confuse the reader. Furthermore, the opposing user stated they would be "okay" with the article being moved to the proposed "Alexandropol Uyezd" pending the result of their unsuccessful RM for all Uyezd articles to be moved to Uezd. – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 09:33, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

  Misleading. The “extensive set” does not demonstrates this is the clear most common name. The “unsuccessful RM” has not been closed. —Michael Z. 13:23, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

  If counting by search engine hits using Google Scholar and Advanced Book Search, the SET does indeed demonstrate that the proposal is the WP:COMMONNAME—exceptions can't arbitrarily be made to the SET standards, they should be applied consistently across Wikipedia to ensure the most objectivity and impartiality dictate the norms. In regards to the RM, ignoring the fact that it has been open for more than 6 months, the fact that it is not successful means that it is as of yet not successful. In any case of the semantics, wouldn't it be a better use of time to action that RM succeed instead of debating on an individual article-by-article basis about the use of uezd vs uyezd in the article title? – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 13:44, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

  You appear to be attempting precisely “debating on an individual article-by-article basis” with this RM and Talk:Etchmiadzin Uyezd#Article name, Talk:Nakhichevan Uyezd#Article Name, Talk:Nor Bayazet Uyezd#Article name, and Talk:Sharur-Daralayaz Uyezd#Article Name. Are there more?

  There is a consensus based on the evidence to use the spelling uezd in the main article, and there is a consensus to use WP:CONSISTENT article titles in Wikipedia. You seem to be re-litigating the results at several levels without much concern for previous decisions or the evidence. —Michael Z. 15:27, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

  Misleading–in those articles I argue about the correct variant of the name (e.g. Echmiadzin vs Etchmiadzin; Novobayazet vs Nor Bayazet, etc) which affects those individual articles only and has nothing to do with the uezd or uyezd in the name which affects all those articles equally which is why it should be done in a more centralised and systemic manner, hence your RM. I don't think you're acknowledging WP:CONSISTENT considering that +99% of articles with uyezd/uezd in the name in-fact use uyezd, therefore, "Alexandropol Uezd" is the sole exception which again is completely inconsistent with the others and only confuses readers. Just because the main article uses uezd, does not imply there is a concensus to use it broadly across the rest of uyezd articles, that is why an RM was necessary, and since it has not passed, I don't see a basis to change these the individual uyezd articles as well. – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 00:11, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

  Well, i think it it kind of does imply that, since the majority of those articles’ titles have never been discussed. The open discussion does not indicate a lack of consensus or disagreement either (there was only one dissenting comment).

  What if we surveyed the evidence (already partly done) and had a formal RFC to check for consensus to rename all of the uezd articles in Erivan governorate? —Michael Z. 03:19, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

  I'm open to a formal RFC about changing uyezd articles to uezd so long as it applies to all such articles, not just in the Erivan Governorate, for the sake of consistency. – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 04:21, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

  Well we don’t have consistency, but we do have recent consensus for the main article and for this article. I thought taking steps to broaden the consensus would be a positive move. Since you’re against that, I have posted a request to close the other discussion at Wikipedia:Closure requests. —Michael Z. 20:02, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks for doing that—hopefully the discussion is closed favourably to uezd to officialise the consensus. I believe another matter that should be discussed is how the specific uezds should the addressed. For example, whether "uezd" in the county name be in lower case as in the case of this quote:

  But in 1919 the Zangezur uezd was more than a region of exquisite natural beauty, [...]

  or should they be addressed without a "the" preceding them like so:

  The following territories had to be surrendered to the Ottoman Empire: a great part of Akhaltsikh uezd, [...]

  In determining this, it may be useful to compare similar examples to determine the correct structure. In example, Orange County, California doesn't use a preceding "the" and in-fact capitalises the "county":

  Other ranchos in Orange County were granted by the Mexican government [...]

  – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 00:16, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

  I think following reliable sources for these names is better looking at other names, but I suspect you may not find consistency. —Michael Z. 02:55, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

  In my experience, especially as "uezd" is not an English word like "County" is, most RS prefer to keep "uezd" in lowercase, for example, "Alexandropol uezd". However, the preceding "the" is less clear in its preferred usage, therefore, I think it's fine to leave the latter as is. In summary, should the uezd article's discussion pass, I am happy with changing article titles from XYZ Uyezd or Uezd to XYZ uezd, including this one. – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 03:51, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

  @Mzajac Hello! Now that the discussion on the main article has officialised, would you object to moving this page to "Alexandropol uezd" with a lowercase "u" per RS? I've moved all the Caucasus Viceroyalty articles from "Uyezd" to "uezd" in accordance with the consensus and don't see why Alexandropol should be an exception – Nakhichevan uezd, Nor Bayazet uezd, Surmalu uezd, Sharur-Daralayaz uezd, Erivan uezd, and Etchmiadzin uezd. Cheers – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 10:02, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

  @Nunuxxx, go ahead, thanks. —Michael Z. 13:54, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.