Talk:Alf Ramsey/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 20:55, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

As promised, I will review. I'm going to read through the whole article again from top to bottom, then make comments tomorrow, as it's nearly 60K in size.

https://news.yahoo.com/poland-comes-third-1974-beating-brazil-232710757.html is coming back as a dead link (404) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:55, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Early life

• This source confirms Parrish Cottages has been demolished. I wonder, though, if there is a Geograph image of those houses, and if so, that would be a more appropriate picture than Dagenham village church? (You'd have thought Dagenham LBC would have put a plaque or something up somewhere to promote themselves a bit?) Indeed, looking at the caption, one may think "Ramsey's birthplace and childhood home" was the church, or next door, but looking on a map it suggests it was some distance from the village centre.

  Couldn't find anything. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:32, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

  I couldn't either. The house is here, but Geograph has no images. I'm not particularly enthusiastic about going on a "sightseeing" tour of Becontree to get a photo - maybe that can be a job for someone else. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Becontree Heath School" could do with a link, even if it's been completely obliterated since the 1920s it might be a suitable redlink for somebody to create an article at a later date. Just a thought.

  Well neither Becontree nor Becontree Heath link to a school, so I imagine this article would be odd to do so. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:32, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

  I found a blog that said the school was demolished in 1966, but as you might expect a search for "becontree school 1966" comes back with hits about Alf Ramsey. If I can't find anything concrete, I'll leave this for now, I'm just concerned somebody might pull it up in FAC, perhaps. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:28, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Alf's selection for the school occasioned the purchase of his first pair of football boots." - this sounds a bit too whimsical, why not just "Alf's selection for the team allowed him to buy his first football boots"?

  Cliftonian, Dweller, not in reach of the paper copy right now, can we rephrase this a touch? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:42, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

  I'm a bit in and out at the moment, (you might have noticed) but I should be able to handle this before my next absence without leave. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:18, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

   Done. Chose a slightly different route, to reflect what I saw as the nuance in the text. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:20, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Second World War

• Was it a conscious decision not to link "Second World War" in the opening sentence?

  Well it's not linked in the lead, and it's one of those things which you have to think, would someone really interested in Alf Ramsey really click on? I doubt it. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:55, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "That notwithstanding, the training was physically demanding" - can you think of something better than "That notwithstanding"? The only thing that comes to mind is "however", but that's used far too much in articles, in my view

  Reworded. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:56, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "The match at Luton's Kenilworth Road ground was in the Football League South, an irregular wartime division of the Football League" - this information doesn't seem to be in the source given : http://www.rsssf.com/tablese/engall.html

  Yes, that's odd, and I'm not sure if it's even that useful, so I've rephrased. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:45, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Playing career

• "Their reactions to moves were so speedy they had completed a pass, for instance, when I was still thinking things over" - is this missing a comma?

  I don't think so. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Southampton beat Corinthians" - I don't know much about Brazilian football, but is this the correct form of link to use here?

  Yes, if it's good enough for The Daily Telegraph and The BBC and even The New York Times, it's good enough for Wikipedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:00, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "in an away match against Grimsby Town, he scored what is generally considered the best goal of his career" - more a nitpick than anything else, I assume McKinstry's book is well-regarded enough to be reliable enough for saying this is a general opinion of most people?

  If it's not RS for this, then it's not RS period. I think it's good enough. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:00, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

My bad, I only checked Google Books, which has one review and a news search for the book was a little scant, but Amazon has lots of very positive reviews, and I found a footnote in The Guardian that praised it being an excellent biography, so I'm happy that it is the conneries du chien as far as Alf Ramsey sources go. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:44, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Managerial career

• What is Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation's reputation as a reliable source like? I do remember the days of Usenet, when anybody would write anything, and while a lot of the FAQs were pretty good for their day, they can't compete with professionally written biographies and almanacs.

  Generally accepted as reliable, although I would struggle to find that written down. I suppose we could find it being used in FAs however. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• What makes soccerbase.com a reliable source? (Not a rhetorical question, I have seen it before in articles, I just can't remember the specifics)

  Generally accepted as reliable, although I would struggle to find that written down. I suppose we could find it being used in FAs however. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• The "1966 World Cup" sub-section has quite a few unsourced ends of paragraphs. I've tagged these for attention. I will say that anyone who challenges the claim that Ramsey is "the only England manager ever to have won the World Cup" is either trolling or in deep denial.

  Addressed I think. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

  Yup, job's a good'un. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:11, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• Is the ""we will win the World Cup" necessary? It doesn't give us anything else on what the previous sentence just said.

  Rephrased. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:03, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Ramsey's statement made three years earlier was looking in doubt now" - I think it would be better to be more concrete and say something like "Ramsey's earlier statement that England would win was looking in doubt"

  Rephrased. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "I'm glad somebody retaliated against those bastards" - minor nitpick, the source bowdlerises this with asterisks

  Difficulty is that the phrase isn't found elsewhere. Thoughts? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

  I found this source with it uncensored. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:12, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

  Would you consider that RS? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

  Well not really, but it's the only other place I can see it mentioned, and it's the only way I can easily see what the censored word was (although it's kind of obvious). As I said it was a "minor nitpick", I wouldn't worry about it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:10, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "This remains England's best ever position in a major international tournament apart from the 1966 World Cup." - this could do with a source, I'm reluctant to tag as it ought to be easily verifiable, but just for completeness.

  I wonder if you can find a single source for this? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:30, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "The football played by England against West Germany was described by journalist Hugh McIlvanney as "cautious, joyless football"" - nitpicking again, but the source doesn't have the comma in the quotation

  Tweaked, false title adjusted too. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Although his time with Birmingham was short, he did mastermind a notable victory" - can we pick a different word to notable here?

  Reworded to drop "notable". The Rambling Man (talk) 13:11, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Personal life

• "going so far as to adopt a speaking accent" - do we need to qualify this with "speaking" or will "an accent" do?

  I agree. Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "It was rumoured that Ramsey had Romany (or "gypsy") ancestors" - rumoured by whom exactly? This seems a little vague, particularly when it's making a supposedly racial slur against a well-respected person

  Well, plenty of sources talk about it in such terms, such as The Daily Telegraph and McKinley. There are other refs out there too, e.g. this one, this one, etc. I don't think the article is saying anything that plenty of RS isn't saying. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I think, drop another source in such as one of the biographies so we have two very good references to this, and I think that should do. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

• "He propagated this false age for over two decades, in press articles, his autobiography and Who's Who" - the source here is a shortened footnote that goes to a full reference that doesn't exist - I fixed this
• "deciding that he could not lie to Debrett's" - a brief description on who Debrett's are would be useful

  Added. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Retirement and death

• It seems a bit odd that this section starts off with a bunch of quotations. Can't we just rewrite it as prose?

  Re-written a bit. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:51, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

• Do we know if Lady Victoria is still alive - she must be approaching 100 if she is

  Per The Daily Mail (RS!), she was still kicking in July 2016, aged 95, per this story. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:03, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Okay, my point was just to check the article was up to date. I wouldn't ask for anything more than an additional "until her death in [year]" to be added with a source at whenever the appropriate point is. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:31, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Legacy

• This section seems a little short, and could benefit from a few other quotations. Reading through the article I get the impression that Ramsey was fondly remembered by players, but snubbed and looked down on by senior management and officials, and the contrast between winning the World cup in 1966 and failing to qualify for 1974 means views on him do seem to be mixed.

  I think the detail stands up quite well in comparison to other articles, e.g. Alex Ferguson, Bobby Robson, etc. The main point here is really that he was pretty much ignored post-retirement. Sadly. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

• I think to make the claim "He remains widely regarded as one of British football's all-time great managers" in the lead stick, we need to spell that out in detail in this section, so nobody goes away with any POV worries.

  "Ramsey was listed in the top ten best British managers ever in The Independent.[166] He is widely regarded as one of British football's all-time great managers.[160][167][168] " is here in this section, how do you want that expanded? Some journalists and players/managers thought he was one of the all-time greats... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Summary

The prose is great, a truly enjoyable read and I felt I learned something about Alf Ramsey that I didn't know before, which is good. There are a couple of places where the sourcing falls down a bit, but given the team we have behind this, I don't see that as a major problem, and should be easy to resolve. I'll put the review on hold now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:50, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Responder comment

Thanks! I've done a few of these, but I'm off to California now, so hopefully Dweller or Cliftonian can deal with the remaining minor items. If not, I'll be back in a week or so. Apparently they do have the internet over there, so all may not be lost at this time. Wish me luck! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Okay, well I might see what I can do as well, though obviously I don't have any of the paper sources. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:42, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Ritchie333 my co-contributors are otherwise engaged, I've made some attempts to cover your concerns with the exception of the "wistful" prose, which I personally don't object to, but also don't have the original source handy to see what it really said. How are we looking? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:58, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

I think we're looking good. I think the "whimsical" prose is not a problem for GA, though it will be for FA. So, I think it's all over .... it is now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:26, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Fair use image abuse klaxon....!!!!!!!!! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Damn, thought all 1960s B&W photos were "printed without a copyright notice" jobs Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:29, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

No worries. Although I will add it to your desysop Arbcom evidence pack.............. (p.s. unless The Boat Races 2017 piques your fancy for a review?) The Rambling Man (talk) 22:31, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

I would, but I've had a long day and I'm off to bed, so the pile of errors on ERRORS will have to wait for another admin I'm afraid :-/ Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:35, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, there are no other admins. Sleep well. I'm off for a Bud. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:37, 9 April 2017 (UTC)