Talk:Alice chess

Castling

Is castling allowed in Alice Chess? and if so, for it to be allowed in a particular instance, would the square that the king moves over need to not be under attack on either of the boards?

It's allowed. It just has to be legal on the first board. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:25, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Old talk

In the sample game, after 1.e4 d5 can't White just mate immediately with 2.Bb5 instead of 2.Bc4? Krakatoa 01:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

No, because the bishop would move onto the second board, and thus not attack the king. As the article says, "captures [and by extension checks] are made on the board the piece begins on"; probably the article could be a bit clearer on this. I'm too tired to look at it just now, however. --Camembert 01:58, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

(Incidentally, it doesn't affect this comment, but I just changed the 2.Bc4 to 2.Be2, since otherwise Black can just play 2...dxc4 --Camembert 12:33, 26 August 2005 (UTC))

Maybe I'm dense, but if checks are made on the board on which the piece begins on, then on 2.Bb5 check (and mate?), the bishop would stay on the first board, right? Krakatoa 16:11, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

No. Every time a piece is moved, whether it captures or not, it goes onto the other board. So before 2.Bb5 the bishop is on board A (the one on the left in the diagrams) and after 2.Bb5 it is on board B; the fact that it would be giving check had it stayed on board A is completely irrelevant. Captures are made on the board the capturing piece begins on, so with the bishop on board B and the king on board A, there is no check.

The meaning of "captures are made on the board the piece begins on" is not meant to be "if you capture a piece, you do not transfer the piece which has captured to the other board" but rather "if a piece starts on board A, it captures other pieces on board A, not pieces on board B". Probably this could be clarified in the article.

You're not dense, by the way--Alice chess is one of the more, erm, esoteric variants. Took me about six months to get my head round it :) --Camembert 18:29, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I think Ralph Betza commented once that he found Alice chess intruiging because he could never figure out how to play it well. I have the same problem with it. I guess it's a common issue?! Double sharp (talk) 13:44, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I've added some more verbiage to the article; I hope it clarifies more than it confuses. Better? --Camembert 19:13, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I dunno. Your discussion of the game ending in 3.Bb5 mate is definitely clearer. This language at the beginning of the article is what confused me:

At the start of the game, the pieces are set up in their normal position on one board ("board A"), with the second board ("board B") empty. When a move is played, the piece moved passes "through the looking glass" onto the other board.

I didn't realize, until you enlightened me above, that the pieces continued switching back and forth between the two boards. I thought as the game went on, you just ended up with more and more pieces on board B. I have a suggested edit that I think would make this clear. (I would make it myself, but I don't know how to do diagrams like those you used.) I would give the sample game 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5, and show how after the first pair of moves two of the pieces are on the board B, but after the second pair of moves all the pieces are back on board A.

On further reflection, I think substituting "Every time" for "When" in the second sentence of the text italicized above would help. I will make that change and see how that looks. But you might consider the further edit I suggested. As you say, this is a pretty bizarre/hard to comprehend variant, so one ought to be crystal-clear so the reader will "get" it faster. Krakatoa 20:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't realise the problem was not realising pieces could move back from board B to board A. Now I look at it, I see the article wasn't clear about this. I'll try to edit it further so there can be no mistake. As for the rest: I think there's a general need for more diagrams; the game is, indeed, quite tricky, so it's hardly possible to provide too many for the newcomer. I've added some more now; I hope it's not overkill. See what you think. --Camembert 22:25, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Great job! Thanks for all your work on the article. I think it is very clear now. Adding all the diagrams really helps; I don't think it's overkill. Krakatoa 14:58, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

template:alice chess diagram

I have created a diagram for alice chess ( with a double board ) . I did not know how to add the coordinates so I simply left the board the way it is. If any one can do this please don't hesitate. --Sibahi_talk 10:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

A B

{{alice chess diagram
|tright
|
|rd|nd|bd|qd|kd|bd|nd|rd
|pd|pd|pd|pd|  |pd|pd|pd
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
|pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|pl
|rl|nl|bl|ql|kl|bl|  |rl
<!--     Board A     -->
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
|  |  |  |  |pd|  |  |  
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
|  |  |  |  |  |nl|  |  
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
<!--     Board B     -->
|
|}}

About the rules and possible mistakes

I'm having some trouble trying to wrap my mind around the concept of this game... I think that, for example, the following sentence needs clarification: "pieces may only capture pieces that are on the same board they are on; so pieces on board A capture other pieces on board A, and pieces on board B capture other pieces on board B. " How's that possible, since the pieces move from one board to another — is a capture an exception to the rule?

Also, in the sample game (1.Nf3 e6 2.Ne5 Bc5 3.Nxf7 Bg1) if White played something like 4.a3, would 4...Qh4 be a mate, because the queen would apparently threaten the king in the way the bishop moved to g1 over the f2-pawn? --ZeroOne (talk | @) 23:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, just saw your comment. Em .. put it this way, a piece on board A moves so that it captures another piece on board A, THEN it transfers to board B. This is the legal scenario. The answer to your question is no .. because the Queen and King are on different boards. (A piece on board A can't move to a square empty on board A but occupied on board B, regardless if it's occupied by a friendly or an enemy piece. --Sibahi 22:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that wording is clear and straight forward if you realize the transfer is the last thing that happens. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 03:09, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

What's wrong with Sample games ?

Yes, what's wrong with sample games ? And don't tell me because Wikipedia is not a manual. I don't see how, in anyway, providing a sample game, which illustrates how playing this game differs from normal chess, makes Wikipedia a How-To guide. Strategy tips, if they existed, ARE How-to guide.

Also, even if the sample game Yearout-Jelliss counts as annotated text, (which I don't think it does,) the Fool's mate and the Scholar's mate are essential information about the game, rather than random sample games. You might as well delete the scholar's mate article.

Incidentally, you also removed a diagram from the next section, that shows a variation of Alice Chess. Information, not a how-to guide.

--Sibahi 22:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Castling and first pawn move

As some people count castling and the first pawn move as two moves (or 3 for castling) executed in one move, do the peices that move the two moves stay on the same board. ie. a pawn moving two squares is counted by some people as two seperate moves executed in one move (and one of the reasons for the introduction of the en passant rule) and when a king moves during castling the official rules say that the king cant be placed in check during any phase of the move including the square the rook ends up in, so its as if the king just moves twice, for this does it stay on the starting board? —Preceding unsigned comment added by J4ck 7he Ripp3r (talk • contribs) 07:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

No, if two moves are excuted in ONE, I think that it only counts as one move. So if a pawn moves two squares in its first move, it will go to the other board after reaching its destination. I also don't think that one can castle in Alice Chess, but I'll have to find out. Since there are two pieces moving at the same time, I don't know if the king to transfer to the other board or whatever combination possible.

O—— The Unknown Hitchhiker 15:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Castling occurs, and both pieces are transported, in games Yearout vs. Viveiros, Yearout vs. Jelliss, and Veronesi vs. Jelliss. (That's good enough for me!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:13, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Again I think this is pretty obvious, It's not like in a normal game of chess castling is counted as two turns of play. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 00:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Udo Marks, Mate in 7

Um ... does anyone know where to find the solution to this problem at the top of the article? I've searched several websites looking for this problem and its solution, or any of Udo Marks variants problems, and haven't been able to find. (It seems a little un-useful, to have a problem here, but no way to confirm or verify what the solution is!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 15:27, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I sent Email in mid February in attempt to get answer about solution to the chess problem. No reply so far. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:08, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Finally heard from Udo Marks! Stay tuned ... Ihardlythinkso (talk) 17:41, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Marks sent me the mate in 7 solution, and an additional problem (mate in 2) too. I replaced the mate in 7 in the article with the mate in 2; I think less people will be intimidated to try and solve a mate in 2, than a mate in 7!

I hesitate to put the mate in 2 solution in the article directly (that would be "too easy"), and think a link to a site where the solution can be found would be better. Stay tuned ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 10:17, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

"Show/hide" was the best solution for this. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:44, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for doing that, I never would have tried to do a 7 move puzzle with normal chess, let alone Alice chess. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 03:42, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Thx for your comment! Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:21, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Three-Man Chess which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:33, 28 October 2019 (UTC)