Talk:Alireza Firouzja

Do Not Delete Online Information

@Exxcalibur808: Online chess tournaments are becoming a huge part of the overall chess environment. FIDE is even sponsoring the Fischer Random World Championship match with online play as a qualifying component. Alireza is a fixture online and has a huge Chess.com following. His results in the Junior Speed Chess Tournament are very important and he is one of the few candidates who has a real chance at winning.

Digitalgravity (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I have kept the information but condensed it. An explanation of the exact format is not needed and this is only round one so the amount of detail should be limited. Hrodvarsson (talk) 02:03, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

That's fine and I think the edits are constructive.Digitalgravity (talk) 03:22, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Chess Kid Tournament

Why is listing the Chess Kid online tournament considered Advertising?? The event is already popular in the Online Chess community and features the best young players in the world — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mainavid (talk • contribs) 14:23, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

No third-party sources. Other than the hosting site, an online tournament isn't mentioned everywhere else and shouldn't be mentioned on an encyclopedia. Sophia91 (talk) 22:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Article Tense

Hi, whoever is updating this page can you stop writing it in the present tense please. Updating the Tata Steel Chess section as if the present tense means that it needs updating afterwards to put it into standard wikipedia formatting.

Could you please write it so instead of 'currently taking part in Tata Steel', to 'participated in Tata Steel from [insert dates]'. Beast01998 (talk) 18:41, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

For lay readers

I believe this has been brought up elsewhere, but I will say it (again?). Many people who read these chess articles don't know what something like "8/11 points (+5−0=6)" means. It would be nice if at the first use of such arcane content, a link to an explanation were included. Kdammers (talk) 16:17, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect Age

Something is wrong with the age template being used. It lists Alireza's birthday as "18 June 2003", but his age still as "17." He turned 18 two days ago.

Kevin ^{Hallward's Ghost (Let's talk)} 06:42, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Future world champion prediction?

This got removed: "in the same month (July 2021) Leonard Barden wrote that he is 'widely tipped as a future world champion'.[1]" with the comment "(Its a nice reference but this sort of thing just puts too much pressure on a young player. Let him be. There is a big difference between 2750 and world champion)". [2] While I understand the sentiment, our job is just to report what the WP:Reliable Sources say, and chess journalism sources don't get much more reliable than Leonard Barden. Also, I remember similar things being said about Garry Kasparov (e.g. in the 1982 edition of Batsford Chess Openings when he was 19, though by that time he had already won the 1982 Interzonal and qualified for the Candidates; and also in a newspaper after he won the World Junior Chess Championship in 1980), and Magnus Carlsen. On the other hand, have there been similar predictions about others who have not quite made the very top, e.g. I wonder what has been said about Wei Yi? And I think Nigel Short said Sergei Karjakin could be a WC (though Short is prone to saying silly things). So in conclusion, I'm leaning to putting it or something similar back in, but I'm in no rush. Adpete (talk) 03:32, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

There are ten "future world champions" for every world champion, if not more. It's technically accurate, but I think there's a better way to express that in the article. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 03:47, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Are we going to mention Mohammadreza?

See the subject

https://ratings.fide.com/profile/12573990 https://twitter.com/mrfchess https://www.instagram.com/mr.firouzja/

Thewriter006 (talk) 12:53, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Edit wars

Please stop edit warring over nationality and how it should be described. Use the talk page to agree on a formulation acceptable to all and move on.

(The other ongoing issue is the constant adding of live ratings, even in the middle of a tournament that hasn't even been completed yet. To reiterate, live ratings as published by 2700chess.com have no standing. 2700chess.com is a self-published source by some random internet guy; FIDE is chess's international governing body.) MaxBrowne2 (talk) 22:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I thought my edit "is an Iranian-born chess player who has been a French citizen since 2021" was a reasonable compromise. But per MOS:FIRSTBIO, I believe his current nationality must be in the lead sentence, in some form. Adpete (talk) 00:35, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

As for live ratings, the problem is that numerous reliable sources cite them. I would not object to it being in the body of the article (e.g. "In November 2021, Firouzja played in European Teams Championship, scored 5.5/6 and reached #3 in the unofficial live ratings" with a cite to a WP:RS), but I agree it has no place in the lead or infobox. Adpete (talk) 00:35, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

MOS:ETHNICITY is more relevant. I would argue that being the first Iranian to be a serious contender for the World Championship, his ethnicity is relevant to his notability. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 01:06, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Isn't that contained in "Iranian-born"? Adpete (talk) 02:15, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I prefer just "Iranian" rather than "Iranian born". If I moved to Japan, I wouldn't become "Japanese" just because I lived there a few years. So "Iranian, French citizen" would be my preferred formulation. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 11:18, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Personal preference shouldn't matter much for an encyclopedia, additionally several chess players who were born in one country and later switched countries are listed as x-born y player, with x being original nationality and y being the new federation, such as Kaidanov, Kamsky (who also moved countries at 16 and represented the other), and So. He's also not just living in France, he's representing the national team and he's a French citizen. Would perhaps something like Irani-French or French-Iranian player be a reasonable compromise? CeviLevita (talk) 18:20, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Personal preference is part of the consensus building process. POV obviously but I think of him as an Iranian who took French citizenship to advance in his profession, rather than "French". MaxBrowne2 (talk) 00:22, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I also think personal preference should not be relevant to details like this. I agree personal preference can affect the style of an article, but not factual details like his nationality. We should be guided by the WP:MOS and how the WP:RS describe him. Adpete (talk) 01:36, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

This talk is really not logical at all. Firstly, a personal preference is absolutely unavoidable. Everything you write is based on your personal preference even if you deny it. The question is which proposition is most reasonable. Secondly, the "x-born y player" formulation is faulty in two ways. 1. It implies that the individual is not a national of x anymore. For Mr. Firouzja, this is strictly false as he still holds Iranian/Persian nationality. 2. x and y are meant to be identifiers. A person's identity isn't limited to their citizenship status or even their nationality. Identity has elements of language, ethnicity, birthplace and historical background as well. For example, Şivan Perwer is referred to as a "Kurdish Poet" even though Kurds aren't a nation. Therefore, because "Iranian-born French" puts emphasis on "French", it is a faulty identifier. In conclusion, the best way to identify Mr. Firouzja is either 'Iranian/French chess player' or, better, 'Iranian chess player who currently plays for France'. Sqanei (talk) 07:44, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree with your points 1 and 2, and I think they are part of what makes finding good language to use a difficult problem. "X-born Y" is often used to describe someone who is ethnically and culturally Y but was born in country X. That clearly does not apply here. Quale (talk) 22:55, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your input.Sqanei (talk) 01:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

So x-born y is incorrect (though I do think the other users formulation is incorrect given that it's used for GMs who emigrated post childhood such as So, Kamsky, and Kaidanov), that still doesn't address the issue with Irani-French or French-Iranian, though of the votes you listed I do think Iranian/French most accurately represents Firouzja's status given he represents France and unless he later changes Federations will be for the rest of his career. CeviLevita (talk) 02:23, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I disagree that anything about ethnic or cultural affiliation is implied by "x-born y". It is used for Lenier Dominguez, though he had been the leading Cuban player for 18 years before changing federations. Moreover, as Wiki gnomes, we are hardly in a position to pass judgment on people's ethnic/cultural affinity.

We should not be going into this detail in the lead section: "In December 2019, he announced that he would no longer play under the Iranian flag after Iran withdrew its players from the 2019 World Rapid and Blitz Championship to uphold their ban against Iranians playing against Israelis. Since 2019, he has been based in France, and he became a French citizen in July 2021." The lead section is for describing what makes him notable. For other players who changed federations, such as Dominguez, the lead section doesn't even say why they changed. Since Firouzja's change, in contrast to Dominguez's, was part of an international political flap, it's notable enough in itself to mention in the lead, but the full description should come later in the article. Bruce leverett (talk) 01:59, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I believe at this point, more editors have found "x-born y" incorrect. I, therefore, humbly ask for a vote. I will just list all the mentioned choices for a final decision: 1. Iranian/French Chess Player. 2. 'Iranian-born chess player who has been a French citizen since 2021' 3. Iranian-born chess player who has been a French citizen since 2021' 4. 'Iranian chess player who currently plays for France'. 5. 'Iranian-born French chess player. Sqanei (talk) 01:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

This would be a good candidate for a WP:RFC. A simple neutral phrased question such as "How should Alireza Firouzja's nationality be described in the lead sentence?" is the way to do it. Unfortunately this page is attracting both French and Iranian nationalists. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 02:45, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

One reliable source (Leonard Barden) is now calling him a "former Iranian": "The former Iranian, who officially became a French citizen on Tuesday, ..." (which I assume means Tuesday Nov 23, since the column is dated Nov 26).[3] I am not saying we should say that, but it is a reference worth keeping in mind. Adpete (talk) 01:05, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Not a very diplomatic description by Barden. You don't stop being Iranian just because you live somewhere else. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 02:40, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

You do if you renounce or lose Iranian citizenship. That said, I'm not sure if he has. One editor above claims Firouzja is a still also an Iranian citizen, but I have not found a definitive source either way. Adpete (talk) 03:48, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

You really don't. Identity comes with birthplace, culture, mother tongue, and historical background. Citizenship and nationality don't change your identity. By this definition I am not sure even mentioning France as an identifier is necessary at all; especially knowing that he hasn't withdrawn from Iranian nationality. His French citizenship and the fact that he currently plays for France can be mentioned later and not as an identifier. Yet, I respect other editors' opinion if they insist on mentioning France.Sqanei (talk) 02:31, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Page has been edited again to say Iranian chess player based in France. Unless we've reached a consensus on this I don't think it should have been edited. Firouzja is Iranian but he also lives and represents France and his switching to France is also notable to due Iranian politics. I think at the very least the page should say Iranian-French or French-Iranian player like we do with most players who switch Federations. CeviLevita (talk) 18:35, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

My edit was done in the spirit of WP:BRD. I am open to alternative formulations and won't edit war. I took into account the information presented below by User:FermatLastTheorem that one can't renounce Iranian citizenship before the age of 25, and that his French residency and citizenship is stated in the very next sentence. "Iranian-born" is ok. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 22:12, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the current edition. As I explained before in this section, Iranian-born French is faulty because he hasn't renounced Iranian nationality yet. Moreover, identity should capture birthplace, language, culture, and historical background as well. The current edition says he's Iranian and also mentions that he has French citizenship. Both true. Yet, if the voter's final choice changes, I am open to it. 108.63.173.239 (talk) 02:53, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

In Wiki biographies of active chess players, in the leading paragraphs and especially in the first paragraph, the most important nationality is not that of the player's citizenship, nor of his birthplace, culture, etc., nor of his residence, but of the country under whose flag he plays. That would currently be France. It is important to capture the other nationalities, but the text that describes them, and that gives the narrative of Firouzja's moves from country to country, should be kept out of the first paragraph, and to some degree out of the other lead paragraphs. This place in the article is meant for a quick summary of what makes the person notable.

Having said that, I am willing to leave this text alone for a while. I am not in a special hurry to modify it; it is factually correct, and I am only complaining about the emphasis. Also, chess players sometimes change their nationalities more than once. We will see what happens with Firouzja. Bruce leverett (talk) 03:20, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Firstly, your reply implies that you are badly confusing nationality with identity. These are two different concepts. Nationality forms only a part of one's identity. Secondly, as I mentioned before, identity comes with birthplace, mother tongue and culture as well. Şivan Perwer is referred to as a "Kurdish Poet" even though Kurdish is neither a nationality nor a citizenship. Also, if he started singing for France, that would never make him "French". It's because he is from a group of people sharing the same language, culture and historical background named Kurds, and it makes sense. Therefore, Mr. Firouzja's identity is strictly Iranian/Persian. French should be mentioned as his 2nd citizenship status and not an identifier. That said, I will roll with the mention of France as an identifier if most editors here insist on it. 108.63.173.239 (talk) 15:05, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

My remarks did not apply to poets; I specificied "active chess players", though I suppose this would also apply to other sports people. I appreciate that a poet's cultural identity is a major part of his notability; but not so for sports people.

The most recent changes, by User:Sportsfan77777, have made the lead paragraphs look more like lead paragraphs, which I like. Separately, he has also weighed in on the question of nationality. Bruce leverett (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Would you please specify what in heavens you are talking about? Are you really suggesting that a poets identity is completely different from a chess player?! A human is a human. It doesn't matter what they do for a living. Mr. Firouzja's career is already introduced by the term "chess player" and there's no dispute on that. The dispute is on the identifier. There is no need to involve his chess career into the identifier again. 108.63.173.239 (talk) 17:18, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Besides, there is no general agreement on whether chess is a sport at all. 108.63.173.239 (talk) 17:18, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Firouzja has already played in a team tournament, the European team championship, representing France. By his spectacular success, he enabled the French team to finish in a tie for first place, a result that they could hardly have achieved otherwise. Perhaps to his family and friends, he is Iranian; but to his opponents and his team-mates, he was French. If a person reads the results of that tournament, and sees Firouzja's name, and looks him up in Wikipedia, that person had better see "French" or "France" immediately. I'm sorry if that upsets you. It is always this way with international chess players. Karjakin and Lagno have played for Russian teams and must now be treated as Russian. Wesley So and Leinier Dominguez have played for United States teams and in that country's championship, and must now be treated as American. The Wikipedia biography for an active chess player must start by stating the country that the player plays for. Failure to do so can only cause confusion.

I see that I am not the first participant in this conversation to make that point; I am repeating an observation already made by User:CeviLevita. I have to apologize for that. I will try to avoid further repetition by refraining from making any more contributions to this conversation. Bruce leverett (talk) 03:12, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Your reply is faulty for the following reasons. 1. You did not address your confusion between nationality and identity. 2. You did not reply about how identity comprises of cultural, linguistic and historical elements. 3. Mr. Firouzja's success is irrelevant to his identity. 4. You're referring to a logical fallacy by appealing to emotions while this talk, at least from my side, is not affected by emotions. 5. The team one plays for does not change their identity. Lebron James played for Heat for 4 years but no one called him "Miamian". He's been always from Ohio. 6. You have now limited your statement on identity from "All Sportsmen" to only "International Chess Players". 7. No confusion will be caused. Mr. Firouzja is Iranian/Persian and the world should know him as such. This is only honest and factual 9. Overall, I sense either strong, unreasonable nationalism or bias towards Iranians/Persians in your replies. 108.63.173.239 (talk) 14:56, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

4th Youngest candidate? What do we say?

Another edit war is developing over whether to say Firouzja is the 4th youngest candidate behind Carlsen, Fischer and Kramnik, with one editor objecting because the world title was split when Vladimir Kramnik qualified for a Candidates at age 18 years 1 month in 1993 in FIDE World Chess Championship 1996. There are two responses to this.

1. Even though the title was split, it can be argued that what Kramnik did was at least as impressive as what Carlsen and Firouzja did, because nearly every leading player played in that FIDE interzonal in 1993. (Or to put it another way: in 1993 the FIDE championship was devalued, but the FIDE Candidates was comparable to any other candidates). In contrast Firouzja played in a Grand Swiss with many players withdrawing due to COVID; and Carlsen qualified in a strange situation in which 4 players were seeded into the world championship and there were 16 candidates (World Chess Championship 2007).
2. More importantly, it is supported by a reliable source. We (the WP editors) can argue all day over which Candidates was "legitimate", but in the end there is a Reliable Source and we should follow that.

But I think it is important to show just how impressive Firouzja's achievement is, and merely saying "one of the youngest" does not give the reader an idea of whether he is one of the 50 youngest or one of the 5 youngest; so I think we should be specific. If another reliable source says he is 3rd youngest (or 5th youngest, if someone wants to count Ruslan Ponomariov at FIDE World Chess Championship 2002), then we can make some comment that it depends on which tournaments are counted. But "one of the youngest" is too vague. Adpete (talk) 07:56, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Right now, our source is Barden, who says Firouzja is 3rd, but our text says 4th. Bruce leverett (talk) 00:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Barden says 4th in history after Kramnik CeviLevita (talk) 17:39, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I see what I missed. In the first paragraph of the article, Barden says "third youngest Candidate", but then in the last paragraph, he writes "Guardian reader Peter Ballard points out that Firouzja is the fourth, not third, youngest Candidate". Bruce leverett (talk) 02:26, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Live ratings (2800)

IMPORTANT :

Firouzja has currently reached 2800 in live ratings (on 2700chess.com). He has not yet reached 2800 in official FIDE ratings. Please do not say that he is the youngest play to reach 2800 until FIDE releases the official rating list on 30th November 2021 or 1st December 2021.

Live rating's are not official FIDE ratings. Update the rating to 2800 only after FIDE releases it's rating list.

A chessbase article reporting this says "Firouzja will do it at 18 years, 5 months and 13 days"

Which means that Firouzja will become the youngest to cross 2800 on December 1st. This is what I have added in the description.

Tweet by 2700 chess "Firouzja (2803.8, World #2) beats Mamedyarov and will officially reach 2800+ on 1st Dec aged 18y 5m 13d. He'll be the YOUNGEST EVER to do so. Carlsen did it when aged 18y 11m 2d. Kasparov was 26. Firouzja's TPR in his last 20 games is 2913 "

APGP360 (talk) 02:19, 22 November 2021 (UTC)APGP360

I have reverted your text mentioning December rankings, as that is not mentioned in the source cited. The source at [4] clearly says that he has broken 2800 in the live ratings, it does not say that he will be 2800 in December's FIDE list. That may be the case, but it can't be used unless it's sourced. Furthermore, most sources I've seen are focusing on the live rating aspect for the time being although no doubt they may amend that once the official list comes out in December.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:27, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree that we should not be citing live ratings, but rather than try to fix that now, I would be willing to wait a week and a half and fix it then. Bruce leverett (talk) 00:58, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, for the infobox and other tables where these figures are used we would stick with the last figures from November. The fact of him hitting 2800 in live ratings is a piece of prose which is sourced to a Chess.com article saying the same thing, so that's fine. We can obviously replace that prose with the December figures when they come out, assuming that's the more notable milestone than the live ratings. (I guess there's a very small chance that Alireza might lose some games between now and the end of the month and never actually achieve the month-end 2800 rating but presumably he's not scheduled to play any games soon anyway).  — Amakuru (talk) 15:15, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Amakuru is right the distinction between live ratings Elo calculated by 2700chess.com is that it takes the changes in FIDE Elo from the published official ratings and calculates the new live rating as new from the FIDE baseline. That means live ratings will always be aligned to FIDE ratings at the end of each month after all games have been submitted to FIDE. I’ve spoken to 2700chess.com and they confirmed they are not and will never calculate real time ratings which would in that case be based on the last live rating and not the last fide rating. This means they will never diverge at the month end published FIDE ratings list. Michuk (talk) 21:45, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Constant repetition of "Elo"

Having introduced readers who are unfamiliar with the concept to Elo ratings early in the article, it is inelegant and unnecessary to add the name "Elo" every time a rating figure is mentioned. When discussing chess ratings the Elo system is implied and assumed unless another rating system such as BCF is specified. It's like specifying "hyper text transfer protocol" every time an internet address is mentioned; yes there are other protocols but http is implied/assumed unless specified otherwise. I explained this to User:Michuk on their talk page, yet they persist with these edits, on this and other chess biography pages. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 00:17, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Adpete (talk) 08:02, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

No I don’t persist with edits on Elo, only when a record is attained. It is sloppy and ambiguous not mention the rating achieved is in Elo and in standard format. Alireza has a rating of over 2800 in blitz. Caruana achieved over 2800 uscf at a younger age than Alireza. So to remove ambiguity it is important to reference Elo and standard. You said it doesn’t matter but it does. Michuk (talk) 20:34, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

It is not sloppy, it is not ambiguous, it is how ratings are normally stated. "Radjabov has a rating of 2753" is universally understood as referring to FIDE standard ratings. If you mean some other time control or some other organization then specify it. It is even less necessary to specify "Elo", and is actually rather useless since just about every national organization as well as many internet servers use some implementation of the Elo system. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 20:46, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

"Radjabov has a rating of 2753" is NOT universally understood because there are rapid and blitz ratings.  Michuk (talk) 10:04, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

You're wrong. Find another reliable source that refers to chess ratings in the way that you insist is necessary and present it before coming back here with this. Or just let it go. Quale (talk) 07:27, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Nationality

The article presents Firouzja as an "Iranian-born French chess player". The reality is that he is an Iranian-French dual citizen as of now. The article must be amended to reflect that he is in fact an "Iranian-French chess player". According to the laws of Iran, renouncing Iranian citizenship is only possible for someone who is 25 or older. Firouzja is 18, and by law, he cannot lose his Iranian citizenship. He is a dual citizen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FermatLastTheorem (talk • contribs) 02:02, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

That is possibly true, but can you provide a reliable citation? I have gone looking before and have been unable to find reliable evidence for or against him being an Iranian citizen. Adpete (talk) 08:05, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

It is mentioned at Iranian citizenship, but the reference is a dead link, and I can't find it on the Internet Archive. Double sharp (talk) 11:48, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Response: Article 988 of the Civil Code of the Islamic Republic of Iran: Iranian nationals cannot abandon their nationality except on the following conditions: 1 - That they have reached the full age of 25.

Therefore, by the laws of Iran, he cannot lose his Iranian citizenship before reaching the age of 25. He is an Iranian citizen by law. The article says he is an "Iranian-born French" chess player. This is simply false. He is a French and also an Iranian citizen and Wikipedia must talk about truths, not what some people prefer to hear. The article must be corrected and remain corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FermatLastTheorem (talk • contribs) 01:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Question: What does "Country" mean in the Infobox? Following up on the above discussion, if it refers to Country of Nationality, it must be amended. Currently, the Infobox says Iran (until November 2019), but he is still an Iranian citizen. If, rather, it is the Country of Representation, this must be clarified too to avoid confusion (maybe replace "Country" with "Representation"). In this case, the period from 2019 to 2021 must be added to the list as well, when he played under the FIDE flag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FermatLastTheorem (talk • contribs) 02:16, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

According to WP:CONTEXTBIO, the use of "Iranian-French" goes against the guidelines for describing ethnicity. Due to the previous comment stating that Firouzja is still an Iranian citizen, the "Iranian and French" stipulation should be used as Firouzja's chess activities, including his nationality changes, as an Iranian citizen are well known, and that he is also French by nationality, and will continue to play under the French flag for the forseeable future. SpyroeBM (talk) 11:54, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

That is not how I interpret WP:CONTEXTBIO. Firouzja's career was well under way (he was one of the strongest GM's) before he changed from Iranian to French nationality. So it would be appropriate to use "Iranian-French". However, I do not know about the claim that he is still an Iranian citizen; if it is correct, then your choice of "Iranian and French" is also correct. Bruce leverett (talk) 19:52, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

No. 2 ranked player

"Firouzja is currently the world's number two ranked player" - why is this in the lead? The Infobox includes his ranking.

As I've already explained, are you going to list No. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 in the leads for the remaining top 10 players? Why aren't they included there now? And which rank is no longer notable? Ranks change monthly and putting them in the lead unless No. 1 isn't necessary.

Divergence5 (talk) 06:18, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Being the No. 2 player on the planet is a fundamentally different and special status from other rankings and is deserving of separate mention in the lead. It's a stylistic choice which seems appropriate to me. Le Marteau (talk) 08:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

He's very young and has plenty ahead of him, his future achievements will likely eclipse this at which point this could be removed from the lead. But for now, being the #2 player in the world at age 18 is a remarkable achievement and certainly worthy of mention in the lead. I don't buy into the "slippery slope" stuff. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 09:50, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

"Being the No. 2 player on the planet is a fundamentally different and special status from other rankings" - is this a joke or are you actually being serious? Most of these top-10 players - Ding Liren, Fabiano Caruana, Ian Nepomniachtchi, Levon Aronian, Anish Giri, Wesley So, Shakhriyar Mamedyarov, Alexander Grischuk - do not have their current ranking listed in the lead. Are you aware that the Infobox lists Alireza's current ranking? Divergence5 (talk) 10:06, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Using bold text in a discussion is almost as bad as using caps, it comes across as very aggressive and shouty. Please tone it down. (Using italics for emphasis is ok.) The other players you mention all have several other achievements that are mentioned in their repsective leads. Firouzja hasn't really had enough time to rack up such achievements yet. His 3 main achievements are qualifying for the candidates tournament, passing 2800, and being world #2, all at age 18. Sounds impressive enough to me. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 10:37, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

If you're adamant that No. 2 should stay in the lead (even though his ranking is listed in the Infobox and similar information is omitted from the leads of other top-ranked players), so be it. Divergence5 (talk) 10:59, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

You're starting to get the hang of it, but italics is used to emphasize individual words, not to shoutify whole phrases. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 12:53, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

We are dependent on sources. A few weeks ago, the whole chess world, including our usual sources, went crazy over the fact that Firouzja was about to become (or had become) No. 2 rated. So this distinction was mentioned in his article, and even in the lead. Other players have slipped in and out of the No. 2 spot without eyebrows being raised, but not this time. We had little choice but to follow our sources.

In the long run, this distinction and, for that matter, all distinctions based on rating, including being No. 1, ought to become unimportant. At least that's how I see it; when I started out in chess, FIDE didn't even have ratings. All that mattered was who had beaten whom, and who had finished ahead of whom. Ah, the good old days.

But enough reminiscing. I expect that in the long run, Firouzja's achievement of "youngest player to reach No. 2" and "youngest player to reach 2800" will be eclipsed by his other achievements, and will end up in the footnotes or perhaps in List of world records in chess. But I can only predict that, I can't say that it has happened. Bruce leverett (talk) 16:45, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Another Picture?

The article uses the same picture for Firouzja's profile and further down. I think another picture should be used at the top of the page, as otherwise it's repeating an image redundantly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ButterCashier (talk • contribs) 17:57, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Edit Wars

I believe that the nationality should not consist Iranian in the introduction and would like to change it , hence I rebrought the old "Edit war" page back so the discussion can be done again. SHU KURENAI 23 (talk) 15:19, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Unusual initial sentence

This first sentence of this biographical article is "Vendeur de maron à chatelet (Persian: علیرضا فیروزجا, pronounced [æliːɾeˈzɒː fiːɾuːzˈdʒɒː]; born 18 June 2003) is an Iranian-French chess grandmaster."

I'd have expected it to begin with "Alireza Firouzja (Persian: علیرضا فیروزجا, pronounced..." instead; I'm not seeing a reason for the article to open the way it does. 64.66.193.189 (talk) 22:47, 4 April 2024 (UTC)