Talk:Alison Hargreaves

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The inintial entry appears to be derived in large part from the Rose and Douglas book, or possibly reviews of the book. If the original author reads this please feel free to correct me. I have added additional sources, and made some adjustments to the text. The major issue for me is to add some 'context' to the final K2 climb, where 5 other experienced climbers made the same decision as Alison - to go for the summit despite some concerns about the weather (and significantly Peter Hillary turned back). The issue of Alison's gender, and consideration of her home life seems to me to be no more significant to her story as a 'climber' than they would be for any other - of either gender. It seems to me that her presence on the mountain (K2)that day was a natural consequence of her career as a talented climber. Her decision to continue to the summit was made by 5 other experienced climbers that day, all of whom died.

The question of what makes and drives climbers is the central issue in mountaineering. It is legitimate to consider where people 'come from' and 'what they leave behind at home', but it is fairly clear that the most powerful motivation is the mountain, the lure of the summits - because (to paraphrase Mallory) "they are there".Tban 16:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to verify that Alison did in fact climb Ama Dablam. The fact was 'put forward' early in the evolution of this article, at a time when there was some confusion as to whether Alison was a US climber, and several US peaks were attributed to her (and since removed). Ama Dablam is a 'difficult' climb and would probably have appealed to Alison if she was looking for some Himalaya experience prior to tackling the 'big three'.Tban 13:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Nationality

Although some of the newspaper reports at the time of her death describe her as Scottish, she was born raised and lived most of her adult life around Derbyshire. This is detailed in the Rose & Douglas book. She had been living near Fort William prior to her death which may be source of the confusion. I actually think that British is a better description - but other seem intend on emptying that category. --JBellis 17:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Not "second person to climb Everest w/out bottled oxygen"

Messner + Haebler = 2 people in 1978.

There were certainly others subsequently & before 1995, but don't have a list.

I removed error and skirted the question.

Perhaps originating editor meant she was second woman? I've no idea and whatever; is unsourced.

Calamitybrook (talk) 17:13, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

The original text stated "...being the second person to scale Mount Everest solo without supplementary oxygen...". A detailed list of ascents without supplementary oxygen can be found here. I'm not sure how many of these were absolute solo ascents [Eberhard doesn't seem to mention these separately in the PDF's] but Alison is listed as number 65. Qwrk (talk) 17:26, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

My mistake. That assertion sounds credible. Nice if there were a source.

I notice she was "unaided" but attached to a commercial expedition led by the unfortunate Russell Brice. Her record points to talents and drive far beyond the average recreationalist.... & I know really nothing about her Everest ascent, but I gotta believe that to equate it with Messner's is uninformative.

Now I've lost the source...........Here it is......[[1]]

Calamitybrook (talk) 19:55, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I hear you, but careful. Climbers often "attach" to a commercial expedition to take advantage of a permit; the level of participation by the permit "sponsor" is always unclear, and criticism of all such proud nails is rampant. By the measure of "unfortunate", association with Scott Fisher, Rob Hall, Abramov, "Jasmine Tours" and "Pakistan Adventure Tours" among others would disqualify any Himalayan climber (perhaps most) based on who hired the cook for that person's breakfasts...Steveozone (talk) 03:57, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes I do think that I fully understand. Nobody can question this person's accomplishments.

I don't know Brice's practices in 1995 but optimally, one gathers he makes sure there are extensive fixed ropes on the route for his clients. So conceivably this climber's "solo" climb of Everest was....well, am sure you understand.

These details are unclear in this article. My info comes mainly from this article.

Um... Didn't Messner use a ladder left by the Chinese? And wasn't old Nena waiting for him at the bottom?? Still......no comparison.

It's not, for example, equivalent to saying that X was the "second person" to break the four-minute mile....

Calamitybrook (talk) 04:33, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd argue that it is, (Roger Bannister didn't run uphill under 33% air pressure) but then again, that's not the point here. Is there some source that says if Russell Brice's sherpas cook your breakfast, you don't count? Is there a source that says if Brice is on the mountain, no climbs count? Steveozone (talk) 07:37, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, that having been said, I'll grant you that Messner's route was quiet and unpopulated at the time of the event. Used the ladder? Who'd know, and why would he need to? Steveozone (talk) 07:58, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the original editor had in mind when stating "...being the second person to scale Mount Everest solo without supplementary oxygen...", but I've had another look at Eberhard's PDF. The best suggestion I can come up with is s/he intended to state Alison was the second female climber who made it without supplementary oxygen, as Lydia Bradley [NZ] was the very first to do so on October 14, 1988 [listed as climber number 31 in the PDF]. I hope to be in touch with Eberhard later this week and I'll make sure to check it out. Qwrk (talk) 08:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Had a conversation with Eberhard over the phone this afternoon and I did ask him about the solo ascents and the female summiteers who went without supplementary oxygen. He does not list solo ascents as most of them fail to adhere to the rules set for absolute and undisputed solo ascents anyway. Imagine approaching Everest from the south; either way, soloists will make use of ladders en route across the Western Cwm, or they'll make use of fixed rope put up there by sherpas preparing the Yak Trail. It verges on the impossible to go figure out who's gone solo and who's not. I'm aware of the fact that Alison took the North Col / NE-Ridge route, but the same criteria apply; fixed ropes and such.

As for Alison being the second female climber who made it without supplementary oxygen is debatable as well. She might even have been the first to do so as the Lydia Bradley ascent has been, and still is, highly disputed.

I think the best option is to leave the text as it is right now, as IMHO it sufficiently describes all that is beyond dispute regarding her Everest ascent. Qwrk (talk) 13:57, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't really have a problem with current text, but to fully understand it, a reader would probably need to have further contextual knowledge that is probably beyond the proper scope of this article.

1+1=2 solo climbs, yes: but I don't think Messner's climb was comparable.

Off topic: The same chinese exped that left the tripod seen on summit in Messner's self-photo, I believe, left a ladder on his route somewhere. Why would Messner "need" to use this ladder? Dunno. I think he did. If he did, it's no secret....I just don't have info at fingertips...

Calamitybrook (talk) 17:01, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

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Solo

While Hargreaves may arguably be the best female alpinist ever, there needs to be clarification of solo, vs alone, vs unaided.

Solo - Hargreaves did not solo by most definitions, there are many definitions of Solo to chose from. https://explorersweb.com/what-does-solo-really-mean-in-high-altitude-climbing/

Alone - It is certainly true that she was not "alone". "Though Hargreaves was self-contained, there were 215 climbers on her route and the adjoining one during her weeks on the mountain." Additionally from the same source and page, she joined climbers Bianchi and Kuntner on the summit at 12:08pm. http://mountainsandminds.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Osius-Fast-Train-Hargreaves.pdf

The most harrowing part of a solo is the idea that you cannot tap out. You are alone physically and mentally. It's an all or nothing. 2600:1700:7B24:4D50:490B:DF42:BDCA:A7FD (talk) 13:30, 26 July 2022 (UTC)