Talk:Aliyah Bet

Aliyah Bet is the widest known term

Who has ever heard of "Ha'apalah" in the English-speaking world or even in Israel? I have nothing against Hebrew words, but only if it can be shown that they have widespread usage (hopefully by Jews, and it helps if non-Jews have accepted Hebrew words as well. But we cannot foist words on the world, with the excuse that some Israelis use it nowadays.) We must stick with the best-known terms, and not give in to revisionistic tendencies as this amounts to a violation of Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms. Just Google Aliyah Bet and compare it to Ha'apalah on Google to see which has the most usage, it's not even a contest! So let's not get carried away here. IZAK 07:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Edits Jan 08

I’ve split the article into sections, to make it a bit tidier; and I’ve re-arranged the ships that were lost into date order. I hope that’s OK with everyone. Xyl 54 (talk) 17:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

• This article: "On August 3, 1944 the Mafkura (or Mefkure) sailed from Constanta with 350 persons on board. The boat travelled with the Morino and Bulbul. The convoy encountered a storm, and the Mefkure was sunk by gunfire or torpedo from a German submarine. "
• Article Mefkure

On August 5, 1944, while crossing the Black Sea, it was torpedoed by the Soviet submarine SC 215 and sunk, killing 345 people. Siałababamak (talk) 13:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Dodgy wording

In the lead: "in violation of British White Paper of 1939 restrictions, in the years 1934-1948". Umm, 1934 action in violation of a 1939 restriction? 00:18, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Merge

Propose merger of One Million Plan -> Aliya Bet
The article on One Million Plan was created in 2014 and has attempted to describe the 1944 Zionist plan to repatriate one million Jews to Mandatory Palestine from 1944 to 1945. The plan was approved by some Zionist organs, but in reality never took place, being in fact shelved. The current article on One Million Plan has only a few sentences on the plan itself, with the rest being various background and aftermath issues which should belong in Aliyah Bet article (such as later policies on immigration). The size of Aliyah Bet article is 30kb, while the size of One Million Plan article is 30kb as well, even though the notability of the never-executed plan is practically meaningless outside the scope of the Aliyah Bet itself.GreyShark (dibra) 19:03, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I just now noticed that Oncenawhile also put this article in the Aliya sidebar template as well. Talk about a POV push.

I see your point about the merge. I think the Aliya article is really underdeveloped, and can benefit from parts of the history section of the OMP article if nothing else. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:06, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

They are different subjects. One Million Plan is a detailed and well sourced article. The bibliography is clear evidence of its notability.

Why don't you like the One Million Plan article? You appear to be on a campaign to hide it. It seems to be a very emotional and possibly personal subject for you.

Oncenawhile (talk) 23:09, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

You're confusing your wish to splash this historical anecdote all over the encyclopedia with other people's wish to give it DUE weight. That's ignoring your complete misunderstanding of the subject matter when you originally wrote the article. Talk about emotional and possibly personal. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:00, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

My wish is that is has due weight. So we are aligned.

Greyshark would apparently like to expunge it completely. This, together with his previous edits, suggest he is determined to paint the Arab world as being full of hateful anti-semites who are to blame for everything. It is a real shame - it is exactly that dangerous attitude that puts our society at risk. If you choose to consider the wider context, there will be less hate and more understanding.

Oncenawhile (talk) 22:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

The more I think about this suggestion, the more absurd it is. Where in the One Million Plan was illegal immigration a primary factor? Combining it with this article would be pure SYNTH.

Oncenawhile (talk) 22:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Where did it say it was talking about legal immigration? It's not like the people planning it had the ability to make immigration legal at the time. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:21, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Wrong question. For this merge proposal to have any merit you need to establish that the One Million Plan explicitly referred to illegal immigration. Your second sentence above (starting "it's not like...") is a classic case of synth. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:13, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's correct, although this is fuzzy territory. Any immigration into Palestine not sanctioned by the British is by definition Aliya Bet. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:29, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

The One Million Plan was presented to the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry (page 264). It was not intended to be a secret and unsanctioned plan. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:02, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't see where that says they were presenting this specific plan, but that doesn't matter since secrecy isn't the issue. The issue is legality. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:29, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Correct, on which topic you have shown nothing but SYNTH to support the above proposal. Since this discussion is clearly ridiculous, I will let others comment. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:16, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - reinstalling the proposal. Actually it has already had majority in favor of the merge, but perhaps more opinions are benefitial.GreyShark (dibra) 19:55, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

You've had 3.5 years to come up with answers to the challenges above - i.e. that there is no evidence that One Million Plan was intended to be "Aliyah Bet" (i.e. illegal immigration). Unless you can bring a source, this proposal is OR/SYNTH.

Onceinawhile (talk) 20:27, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

These do not appear to be the same thing. Zaki Naggar (talk) 04:44, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

• Don't merge - I'm not convinced that this plan comes under the rubric of illegal immigration. Did the Zionist leaders seriously think they could increase the number of immigrants by more than a factor of 10 without official sanction? At a time when most immigrant ships were being intercepted? It is an extraordinary claim that needs explicit sourcing. Zero^talk 03:44, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

The discussion is long overdue. See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/One_Million_Plan.GreyShark (dibra) 06:10, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

• Don't merge. These are separate subjects, a plan that was never implemented versus mostly haphazard illegal immigration which did. Zerach (talk) 06:13, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Re: Timeline; the Patria sunk twice in October, 1940?

We have two separate October, 1940 entries in the timeline section and both focus primarily on the sinking of the Patria. This is inconsistent. Warmest Regards, :)—_thecurran Speak your mind ^{my past} 17:50, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Distinction between Aliyah Bet and Fifth Aliyah

What are their precise definitions? Is Fifth Aliyah the first, pre-WWII part of Aliyah Bet, with a second part after 1939, maybe also with a distinction between wartime (1939-45) and post-WWII (1945-48) periods? Or is this just a false impression arising from reading the enWiki articles' intros/leads? Without clear definitions and classifications, everything becomes useless and confusing. Once this is clarified, we will need better cross-referencing between the two articles. Arminden (talk) 13:48, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Illegal Immigrant or Asylum seeker?

I feel that the wording "illegal immigrant" is not accurate. They were refugees fleeing persecution - which is an asylum seeker under the UN definition. Using the term "illegal immigrant" is not correct in this instance.

The illegality (according to the law established by the Mandate administration) is the thing that distinguishes this from the regular Jewish immigration which had greater numbers. That's the justification for having this article at all. Zero^talk 09:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)