Talk:All-Polish Youth

Untitled

"and declares itself opposed to "doctrines promoting liberalism, tolerance, and relativism." "tolerance"-"tolerancja". There is no word about "tolerancja" in All-polish Youth rulez. There is word about "tolerancjonism". Difference is not coincidence Zofey 05:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

"Tolerancjonism"? What's that supposed to be?

"Tolerancionism" is a part of nationalist newspeak. Tolerance for them is "We are tolerant to every ethnic, religious or otherwise minority, we just believe that homosexualism (liberalism, globalism etc) is a sin and thus should be destroyed by any means necessary." In this new lingo the meaning of "tolerancionism" is what the meaning of "tolerance" is for the rest of us: "tolerate everyone and his behaviour as long as he doesn't hurt anyone and doesn't break any laws." rrw

The name "All-Polish Youth" is wrong. The term "wszechpolski" as understood in the twenties, when the movement was formed meant all the former lands of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. As such, the proper English name should rather be "Greater Poland Youth" or "Greater-Polish Youth". rrw.

I thing "All-Polish Youth" is horrible translation. Most of young Polish are normal people - now it seems the all polish youth is nacionalistic, homophobic etc. - it's like lie. (sorry for my English)

I am Polish and I htink is not (officially) nationalistic officially is "patriotic" thought only officially...........

POV

Please explain what are the POV problems of this article. --Lysy^talk 17:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Removal of sources

It would be very good for the community if, ehmm, user "Crusader", will not remove valid academic sources from this article. Article should be better referenced but it would never become so, if sources will be removed. Users are welcomed to improve the article by adding more sources, even when they are not in line with their point of view. - Darwinek (talk) 21:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

It would be very good for the community if, ehmm, user "Darwinek", will not make his communistic propaganda around Polish patriotic organizations articles on Wikipedia. Darwinek is a Socialist who want to show Polish patriotic organizations as a nazi garbage. Don't make anymore your left-wing propaganda and everything will be ok, go pray to che fujara.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 01:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the last reminder to you. Please refrain from personal attacks and shocking incivility and calm down, please. I am not socialist or whatever, this have nothing to do with the article. Also, don't remove valid references which are provided. If you don't believe me, I can insert full citations from that book in Polish. Also, please read WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:IDONTLIKEIT, WP:CITE and other. Thank you. - Darwinek (talk) 14:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Categories

I've added some categories for the article, but I have noticed there has been an edit war going on regarding the inclusion of the homophobia category. According to their official website, there are various articles including one that is headlined "All-Polish Youth march against homosexuals". The website itself makes it quite clear that the organization is intolerant of homosexuality and gay people, as much as it is pro-Christian beliefs. According to Wikipedia guidelines, this meets the threshold for inclusion in this category. Please do not delete any of these categories without first discussing the matter on this page and gaining consensus. MassassiUK 16:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

On polish Wikipedia this category was removed after discussion. It's true that All-Polish Youth took part in contr-manifestation against "pl:Parada Równości", but as organisation they have stricte conservative programme and their main goal is not to protest anti gay. They declares following things as their goals (short):

1. School Camp (which include historical lectures and social-political panels)
2. Historical competitions for youth. etc.

They also are against gay marriage, children adoption by homosexuals couple etc. but it should be connected with conservative line not strictle with homofobia. Andrew₁₈ ^@ 17:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi Andrew. The All-Polish Youth website itself describes its activities and attitude towards homosexuality quite clearly, which makes it a valid source. I do accept that APY aren't just an anti-gay organisation and that they do other things as well, but they are certainly notable for their anti-gay stance. Their website includes articles about how they have gone on public demonstrations against homosexuality. In the UK, the British National Front went on marches against non-whites, and even though they have a right to their own beliefs, it is still classed as "racism" (the BNF are listed in Category:Racism on Wikipedia). It's the same as with APY. Even though they have a right to oppose homosexuality, be it part of their political or religious beliefs, it is still classed as "homophobia". When I added the categories to the article earlier, I made sure that the article was added to various "Christian" categories as well, which helps to inform people about APY and lets them know that they aren't just an anti-gay organization. Unfortunately, their anti-gay activities and beliefs are highly public and it is something they are particularly noted for. As for the discussion on the Polish Wikipedia, it wouldn't count because this is the English Wiki and has different editors who may not share the same view as the people on the Polish version. MassassiUK 18:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the the consensus on polish Wiki does not count here. But as a Pole I have another view on this organisation than british people. In my country they are not wide know as "homofobic organisation". Previous leaders of this organization have made career in politics (Roman Giertych was a vice prime minister, Farfal is currently a chairman of national TV). Gay organisation are called they "homofobic", but in press and mass-media there is no many apperances of gay-organisation people so this "war" gay-organisation vs All-Polish Youth is going backdoor. The criticism of All-Polish Youth is focused on nazi gestures (media published photos with some All-Polish Youth in nazi poses), not on anti-gay manifestation. In Poland it's stayed as the part of landscape: each gay-manifestation faces anti-gay manifestation and here media does not describe the second as homofobic. We have different circumstances in our country than in west Europe. Andrew₁₈ ^@ 22:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Andrew but this is all just your opinion. You personally may have a different view about All-Polish Youth, but you cannot speak for your entire country. The consensus you claim is on the Polish Wikipedia does not count here because in order to gain consensus, you have to have a debate. Considering that only polish-speaking people would be able to debate on the Polish Wiki, you are trying to force editors on the English Wiki to blindly accept their opinion. There is already an accepted definition of what homophobia is on the English Wiki, and the category is used for articles that notably fit that definition. Based on the beliefs and public activities of APY (which they themselves admit to), they clearly fall into the category. They also fit into the categories "Christian Youth Groups" and "Nationalist Organizations", amongst others, and this helps to provide a balanced view of the APY. Unfortunately, we cannot delete details just because you don't find them flattering, and Wikipedia has to include all the relevant details about a subject. Perhaps it is the definition of the word itself that you are having a problem with? If so, you should read the article on Homophobia as well as Category talk:Homophobia, both of which might help. MassassiUK 23:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I know the definition of word "homofobia" and also I agree with you that the consensus on polish Wikipedia DOES NOT count here, co this part of discussion is clear for you and me I guess. The second, whole organisation which does not have in his bylaw homofobic goals should not be defined as strictle homofobic. I think that we should stay only on section in which we write about All-Polish Youth contr-manifestation against gay parades. Category in this case seems to be a one step too far. We cannot add to this article category Category:Nazism due to nazis gestures of their members - but we can write about it in section "controversy". I am not trying to whitewash article, I think that current version of article has too less about controversy, but I'm only against using category in not clear situations. Andrew₁₈ ^@ 17:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Umm, this whole debate is a bit of too much expression of opinion - how about finding some reliable (third party) sources which describe them as such and then the category can be put in. They are actually homophobic, you know, so it shouldn't be that hard to find the sources. The problem you're going to run into, and which Andrew actually sort of alludes to, is that there is plenty other things wrong with them so their homophobia might be low on the list and hence not readily available in online sources. But let's get a cite or two and then the cat can go in.radek (talk) 00:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Well you wanted sources so I've found some. I think when even the United Nations calls them homophobic, then the category is no longer in doubt. There are literally hundreds of other sources online as well, but I just found a couple. Considering some of the information that I uncovered (and not just about APY making Nazi salutes), I'm beginning to think the APY should be placed in the "Neo-Nazism" and "Hate groups" categories as well. MassassiUK 01:16, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The category should be fine now - since sources were added. I have no problem with it in fact, just wanted it sourced. As for the other cats - it's a little too much. From what I understand SOME people from this group have also been shown to have connections to Neo nazi hate groups but I don't think the organization as whole has been shown to have such connections. As a whole, they're pretty sketchy though.radek (talk) 01:21, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

League of Polish Families

So, the lead says it has been affiliated with the League of Polish Families since 2001, but the article then states that the League of Polish Families broke ties with the group in 2006. Which is it? Also, why does the lead twice state the group's apparently former affiliation with LPR? Ostap 20:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

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Citation Needed

Hello, In the sidebar anti-capitalism is listed an an ideology of the organisation. This seems incorrect, can someone with permissions find & cite a source or remove?37.248.154.138 (talk) 15:52, 5 May 2020 (UTC)SirFranx

@37.248.154.138 removed Abcmaxx (talk) 11:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

"based on fascist doctrines"

Every so often, someone tries to remove the academic reliable source stating that the organisation is based on fascist doctrines. The exact quotes is: "this movement, modelled after the inter-war fascist movement Falanga". To me that is quite clear and non-controversial, especially there are no reliable sources to state that this is not true. Abcmaxx (talk) 14:31, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

This source is stating that All Polish Youth is considered far-right, but no fascist. Vide table on the page 74. Therefore regardles how reliable it is, user Abcmaxx is using it to force own POV based on the false information. This is not allowed on Wikipedia.

"This group, modeled after the interwar fascist movement Falanga (...)" - Falanga is all right considered as somehow fascist like movement (although not to confuse with Italian fascism). However "This group" is related to the RN, which includes more ideologically radical organizations, like ONR. So it does not even refer to the All Polish Youth directly, and user Abcmaxx, either intentionally (or unintentionally - if didn't even checked the source), is incorrectly using the source. More than that, source (in the table on the same page!) is counting All Polish Youth as: "religious fundamentalists". BTW how this source is reliable may be seen in that: Kukiz15 as the "Party", while it never was political party. Further, Radio Maryja is called "Movement", while it is radio broadcaster... and so on... so author apparently have limited knowledge and is using too many shortcuts. However main problem here is that some users are forcing false, not even supported by source. Best Regards. Kojoto Kojoto (talk) 20 June 2020 (UTC)

No it clearly states it is based on fascist doctrines. It does not call it fascist directly, which is what I think you are referring to. That is exactly what the article states. Furthermore if you read the rest of the article there's clearly more academic sources liking the organisation to pro-fascist views. They are labelled as "religious fundamentalists" because that is exactly what they are; their doctrines incorporate extreme religious positions. And Radio Maryja is liked to a movement of the same name that is intrinsically linked to the radio station. Abcmaxx (talk) 16:41, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

• 1- Paragraph about fascist doctrines in the firs source is related to RN (Ruch Narodowy, or National Movement) - so I am afraid other sources placed by Abcmaxx are misinterpreted, the same way. This statement is clearly not about All Polish Youth directly.
• 2- There is no such a movement called "Radio Maryja" (so Abcmaxx proves own ignorance).
• 3- fascist doctrines are going not along any religion fundamentalism.

I am removing this nonsense again, sources provided by user are stating something completly different!!! Sosnowska, N., 2014. "Funkcje słowa faszyści oraz jego synonimów we współczesnym dyskursie polityczno-medialnym i poza nim." "Istotne jest to, że wyżej wymienione leksemy odnoszą się w większości wy-padków do ugrupowań z prawej strony sceny politycznej (biorąc rzecz umow-nie), a więc nie tylko do ruchów z założenia neofaszystowskich, niekryjących swoich powiązań z faszyzmem (nota bene: są one zakazane na mocy Konstytucji z 02.04.1997 r.1), ale również do prawicowych partii i stowarzyszeń pozaparla-mentarnych, jak np. ONR (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny), Młodzież Wszechpolska czy powstały niedawno (po Marszu Niepodległości 11.11.2012 r.) Ruch Narodo-wy, a także parlamentarnych, jak np. PiS." So this source is actually stating that term fascist is inappropriately used for a lot of right wing parties, including: ONR (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny), Młodzież Wszechpolska, Ruch Narodo-wy, or PiS (current government). User Abcmaxx should be immediately blocked, and his editor rights removed, as false editions make significant damage to the Wikipedia project. Best Regards. Kojoto Kojoto (talk) 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Please be WP:CIVIL and stop WP:EDITWARRING. I think you are only reading what you want to read. It says it is being used to describe organisation that refuse this label themselves but on page 365 it clearly states that the organisation is indeed based on fascist doctrines. At no point does it say is used erroneously nor does it use the word "inappropriately used" either. I think accusing me of making a false edits when registering a single-use account for the purpose of circumventing a vandalism protection to suit own ideological preferences (inferred from your other edits) is laughable. Fyi I did not wrote any of this article furthermore from the lede of Radio Maryja; The "Radio Maryja Family" is a Roman Catholic movement led by Rydzyk. Abcmaxx (talk) 18:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

• ("Radio Maryja" i s not "Radio Maryja Family", and this is the fact.) Being precise is key value for every editor. Therefore First source "Minkenberg2017" (correctly or not) is acusing Ruch Narodowy "National Movement" of being based on fascist doctrines. Not "All Polish Youth". As RN is amalgamate of few organizations, it doesn't implement the rule that "All Polish Youth" is based on those. Actually funny, but source placed by Abcmaxx "Sosnowska, N., 2014" is analyzing language forms used in abusive way against political opponents. And fascism is explained as one of those forms, for instance:

Page 365 "Inwektywa faszyści jest stosowana wobec tych ugrupowań z tego względu, że naród stawiają na pierwszym miejscu, co zwolennikom lewicy i liberałów, którzy takie etykietki stosują, wydaje się podejrzane". (My translation: "Invective fascists is applied to these groups, because they consider nation most valuable, for supporters of the left and liberals, who use such labels, this seem suspicious"). Well "Invective", "labels"... Author on all page 365 and other pages is explaining in different ways that "fascism" become form of lexeme, used by some people in the way which doesn't correspond to the original meaning. I honestly can't be sure if user Abcmaxx has misinterpreted the source intentionally or not, but it is still very bad practice, and harming Wikipedia awfully. Kojoto Kojoto (talk) 21 June 2020 (UTC)

First of all, gentlemen @Abcmaxx: and @Kojoto:, please stop edit warring in the article. I should've probably already blocked you both for WP:3RR violation. As for your dispute, "ultranationalist" and "based on fascist doctrines" are strong labels that need better sourcing. Everyone nowadays likes to throw the "fascist" epithet around. In words of fascism scholar Robert O. Paxton - "Everyone is someone's fascist." We need more and better, non-partisan sources. Also, the lede should be neutral as much as possible. The two All-Polish Youths (interwar and contemporary) are not identical twins, and the article should make a clear distinction between them, not to confuse the reader.--Darwinek (talk) 00:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I do 100% agree with Darwinek voice. To be honest article reminds some comment about All Polish Youth, not the neutral information. In example information about TV accusing "members" of the organisation for taking part in neo-nazi event, followed by the note that it was whole fake news and linked to the actual dementi by same TV. This and some other parts needs fixes. BTW avoiding strong terms (particularly not supported by source) comes along with the output of the source (Sosnowska 2014) provided by Abcmaxx. Best regards. Kojoto Kojoto (talk) 02:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

@Darwinek point taken. However the lede as it stands is not neutral in the slightest; it is a lot more than just a nationalist religious movement; they're virulently far-right and homophobic, even on their official page there are slogans and banners like "white power" etc. and even if they are not outright fascist, the overlap is significant, especially as to its roots, which are inspired on the falangist movement. It wields significant political power and as such would never accept the term fascist, many organisations trying to break into mainstream do this. I agree that the article should make a distinction between the two, like it does for ONR. Abcmaxx (talk) 11:51, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Voice above is the proof that people with so strong ideological motivation should be not able to edit Wikipedia. As no matter what true is, they will see "fascist" whenever they want. And user Abcmaxx for instance, is not even hiding his motivation. Too bad... Kojoto (talk) 12:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

says the man who registered an account purely to defend a far-right organisation to bypass a protection on an article. I have done a lot for Wikipedia on various topics, as for my personal beliefs who have no idea what they are so I have no idea what you are inferring here and I suggest you stop. Abcmaxx (talk) 14:09, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:NPA: Stop it right now. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Instead of wrangling over the stickers and labels, you better get the facts in the article straight, especially the unreferenced ones. I fixed one of them now, but the rest is all yours. I have no particular interest, nor expertise in the subject. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Staszek Lem - Please note that I didn't attack that user personally. All I did is: I pointed on misinterpretation of sources user has done. I do not mind if this user has sport, fascist, communist, or any other views, and why is that. It doesn't matter for the Wiki project what are our views as long as we all use sources honestly. It is alerting that I am accused of being the "man who registered an account purely to defend a far-right organization to bypass a protection on an article". This is entirely wrong, while I catched him or her on writing false information to the articles. Isin't there any rule to stop users devastating project that way? Best Regards Kojoto (talk) 23 June 2020 (UTC)

It seems you didn't read or policy carefully, since you continue discussing the editor rather than content. Answering your (insulting) question, see WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE. However if you start framing the complaint the way you are doing here, prepare for WP:BOOMERANG. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Fair point. Altough I always thought that strict following the sources is not in question. And using source not supporting the facts in the article is considered as violation of the rules. You entirely right it should be done with a good manner. Best regards. Kojoto (talk) 14:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Abcmaxx, perhaps saying "modeled after the fascist Falanga" is closer to Minkenberg's book than fascist? User talk:Nyx86 (talk) 14:46, 25 June 2020 (UTC) strike sock

@User talk:Nyx86 I agree, but I am unsure if others will judging from the jeremiad tirade above. Abcmaxx (talk) 23:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Which Falanga do you have in mind? English wikipedia does a very sloppy job py putting all eggs in one basket. In Polish wikipedia we have 4 articles:

• pl:Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny – nacjonalistyczne ugrupowanie polityczne (1934)
• Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny „Falanga” – nielegalne nacjonalistyczne ugrupowanie polityczne (1935–1939)
• Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny „ABC” – nielegalne nacjonalistyczne ugrupowanie polityczne (1935–1939)
• Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny – nacjonalistyczne stowarzyszenie społeczno-polityczne (od 1993)

(Same problem is right here, All-Polish Youth)

Interwar falangas are usually described as "fascist", because fascism was fashionable all over the Europe at these times, and these organizations had no trouble with being called so. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:31, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@User talk:Nyx86: Since this is a sensitive topic, we have to be careful with sources. What did Minkenberg say exactly? (an ext link or quote, please) Staszek Lem (talk) 23:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Staszek Lem:, @Abcmaxx: this is the link, page 74. One page 32, Minkenberg has them pegged as "Religious-fundamentalist".Nyx86 (talk) 14:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC) strike sock

As per my very 1st comment, the exact quote is: "this group, modelled after the inter-war fascist movement Falanga".Abcmaxx (talk) 01:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)