Talk:All In with Chris Hayes

Title change?

Since the website and URL show the title as "All In", I'm considering moving it to All In (with Chris Hayes) (to avoid disambiguation problems at All In). How can we ensure that the visible title automatically provided is in italics?

Here is documentation:

• "All In" takes a hard look at...
• Tonight on All In, February 13, 2015. Chris Hayes has all the day’s news. This is “All In” for February 13, 2015.

The image in the article shows it with a colon, but I don't find that in the text of the website. The lead would look like this: All In with Chris Hayes. Any comments? -- Brangifer (talk) 01:29, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The reliable sources all refer to the show by its full title. In brief, they may use just "All In", as we would also do. The article is best left as is, with its official title. czar ⨹ 01:36, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Its "official title"? The primary source's self-identification is the "official title". What do you say about the evidence above? -- Brangifer (talk) 05:14, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

user:czar, the program even opens with these words: "All In starts right now." There are many places which use only those two words. HuffPost did make an announcement about the long title we now use, which was a repetition of the first announcement from NBC. That proposal was ridiculed, and maybe that's why they settled on the current title. Whatever the case, it's speculation, so we have to stick with what MSNBC calls its program now, on its website. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:19, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

({{Ping}} only works when a signed signature appears in the same edit.) Look at how the show is mentioned in the sources currently used in the article—it's the full name. "All In" is only used in short, such as in the headlines of your links. Clicking through to the actual pages of those links, both use the full title, its official name. I need links to the HuffPo stuff if you want me to see it. And perhaps most of all, no reliable source uses "All In (with Chris Hayes)" in the parenthetical. I don't see how the change makes sense at this time. czar ⨹ 15:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

user:czar, the HuffPost article is used as a source, and it mentions the long name, as did NBC's announcement, which is another source used in the article. As I mentioned, the parenthetical part of the title is because of disambiguation reasons here. No amount of external RS has any influence on that. It's an internal wiki matter. Per standard convention here, when a title (or other wikilink) would be identical to other such titles, we add something in parentheses to make it a unique wikilink. There are lots of uses of All In, so my suggestion is standard practice here. It could be something else, but All In (TV series) is already taken. All In (MSNBC series) would be a good option. With the current version (and parenthetical version I propose), when Hayes stops and gets replaced, we'd probably start a new article using the new host's name, and they would become part of a series of articles showing the history of MSNBC's All In program. If we use All In (MSNBC series), we wouldn't have that problem. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:18, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

What? I'm very familiar with WP's title conventions. As of right now, all of the sources are using the full title when addressing the show: "All In with Chris Hayes". After that initial mention, they may refer to the show as just "All In". Our standard practice is to use what the reliable sources use. If the show's title changes down the line, we deal with it at that time. We don't go based off of how the host introduces the show at the top of the hour. I have nothing left to add to this discussion. czar ⨹ 16:22, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

There was an edit conflict, so read my revised comment above.

So you're suggesting that "All In" is a nickname for the show? I'm seeing the "with Chris Hayes" as a by line. When spoken one cannot tell whether it's actually part of the title, or just the by line, and even when written that's not always clear, but it's written as "All In" enough of the time that it seems to be the official title to me, but I'm still listening. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:28, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Not so much a nickname as a short name. Like calling a person by their last name in a biography after establishing their full name in its first usage. But if someone were to refer to this show in a publication or otherwise, they would not call it "All In" but "All In with Chris Hayes" (as evidenced by how the publications we've cited already use it). If this "with" phrasing seems awkward, remember that this is how many MSNBC shows title themselves. czar ⨹ 16:44, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I get a better glimpse using this link: Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:MSNBC programming. Here are a few examples showing our titles:

• Countdown with Keith Olbermann
• Hardball with Chris Matthews
• The Most with Alison Stewart (this one illustrates my position)
• Weekends with Maury and Connie

They do use a pattern, so I do see what you mean. The short title is pretty obvious, and we have then included the "with...." byline in our titles, but I guess that doesn't really create any "problems", as such. The inclusion of the byline does serve a disambiguation purpose for them and for us, so I'll drop this for now. I know I'm being a bit of a purist here, and if anyone else supports cleaning up all these messes, I'll likely back any logical attempts. It just needs to be done in a manner which the community will support. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:36, 15 February 2015 (UTC)