Talk:Allan Hall (musician)

Allan Hall (musician)

(copied from User talk:Boguslavmandzyuk by Drmies) Mr. Hall does not meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSICBIO outside the band. A release of one album, that went nowhere, does not meet the requirements. Looking at your other contributions, Todd Smith does not meet it either. Please review the requirements... no mention of either singer before the band. didn't chart, didn't make a gold record, didn't release two or more albums on a major label, etc, etc.

Never use an Amazon link. Amazon is unreliable and is considered self-promotion.

NEVER revert before doing a discussion or any discussion at all. Always use an edit summary.

Your choice, do you want the articles deleted or redirected? Bgwhite (talk) 05:17, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I don't who are, but judging from your user page you're not an administrator. And even among my interactions with admins, none was close to being as arrogant as you. As a matter of fact, they were all very civil. So I don't know where you think you get the authority to tell me what and what not to ever do. Also, thanks for reviewing my edits. As a newcomer here who's been on Wikipedia as long as you have, I think I AM in need your tutoring and double-checking all of my edits until I'm familiar with wikipedia's policies.

As for the article, I find all of your objections to be quite irrelevent.

1. Please show me the wikipedia policy that says that Amazon is considered self-promotion. If you took a look, you'd see the album is being sold by Curb Records, a pretty big record company. You don't really think that Allan Hall, a singer signed by Curb Records, produced that record in his garage and put it for sale on Amazon? Also, if Amazon is commonly not accepted by the wikipedia community, why is it cited in some of these featured articles: Love. Angel. Music. Baby., Barton Fink, Branded to Kill, Fantasy Black Channel, Faryl, Ghosts I–IV, Illinois (album), In Rainbows, etc, etc. They cleary had no problems citing amazon as a reliable source, and even promoted them to featured on numerous occasions. Where were you for those FA reviews?
2. I'm pretty sure, you reverted me first (may I remind, without a discussion)

Now back to WP:MUSICBIO

1. Allan Hall fits requirement #1: "the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works" from reliable indepedent sources. [1] radio station, [2] on CCM Magazine
2. Allan Hall is a songwriter, and therefore, co-author, of albums that won Dove Awards. (WP:COMPOSER. Criteria #1)
3. Allan Hall has also produced numerous records with Curb Records.

Now I hope I don't need to remind you that he only needs to fullfil ONE of those requirements to be considered notable according to wikipedia policies. If you weren't so quick to edit articles that you know nothing about (or pretend not to. I don't know which), then you would see me adding a lot more information about him onto his article over the next few days or weeks. However, apparently I can't start a stub here, without you putting in your five cents about its notability. Until you can prove him to be not notable based on the above, NEVER revert my edits on that article.--BoguSlav 07:50, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for calling me arrogant and uncivil. I wasn't, but you are acting that way. Gee wiz, last time I checked you are supposed to add an edit comment and add a reason why you revert. Sorry for "telling you what to do" even if it is Wikipedia policy.

I never reverted without discussion. I added a redirect with a long comment. You reverted without comment... i.e. you are the one who did "undo".

Hall is a composer and did numerous records, but WITH THE BAND. Read all of WP:MUSICBIO, especially at the end where it says, "Note that members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability for activity independent of the band" You have shown NOTHING that says he was important outside of the band. Where is the proof?

Type "Amazon reliable source" in the search box. You will get a tonne of articles where people say it is unreliable. Amazon gets their information form other parties, including the people doing the selling, and does no fact checking. Adding a Amazon link is promotional because you are adding where to buy the album. Wikipedia is not about where to buy things.

Now, where is the proof he is notable outside the band? Bgwhite (talk) 08:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Hahahaha. Ok. I see where your confusion is coming from. That note at the bottom says that people are "not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability...", meaning that a band member does not get an article an unless he has shown that he's notable. Now, the first sentence states that "musician or ensemble... may be notable if it meets at least one of the following criteria". This means that if the person meets at least one of the 12 listed criteria, then that person is considered notable, and therefore, the Note at the end, wouldn't apply.

My claim is that Allan Hall meets criterion number 1 on the list, and is therefore notable. In order for you to assert that I have shown you NOTHING, you must first disprove MY arguments given above. You still have not shown me why Amazon is not a reliable source. I did the search you recommended, and got this: [3]. That shows me absolutely nothing as to why amazon is not notable as a source, and specifically the link that I posted for his album. Also, you have nothing to say about the fact that many featured articles use Amazon as reliable sources.

Now, he fits criterion number 1 as to the links I gave above, and many more I could still find.

Allan Hall is a songwriter, and therefore, co-author, of albums that won Dove Awards. (WP:COMPOSER. Criteria #1). Allan Hall has also produced numerous records with Curb Records. (Note: these two reason are separate from the requirement for musicians.

This is plenty of reasons to say that he's notable.

As to being civil, there is a fine line between suggesting something and discussing it, and showing up with a list of demands that I must follow.--BoguSlav 18:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Now you are calling me a vandal in edit summaries. Nice, yet another bout of name calling. Arrogant, vandal, uncivil, snarky comment about me tutoring you. Um, you have yet to provide proof he is notable OUTSIDE THE BAND.... again OUTSIDE THE BAND. Interesting. Looks like you don't want to discuss because everything I've said is "irrelevant", calling names and don't want to provide proof. Bgwhite (talk) 00:35, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I HAVE provided proof, and I AM discussing this. OUTSIDE THE BAND is not a wikipedia policy, as I have demonstrated above, and you can't simply wish it into existence. Everything I considered to be "irrelevent", I explained why it is so, and provided plenty of proof. Notice, that I am not simply asserting my position as you are, with no responses to what I said.--BoguSlav 03:56, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

• Amazon is not a reliable source unless what needs to be sourced is a tracklist or a release date. The Dove awards are pretty much meaningless. That something shows up in Allmusic doesn't establish notability. I have restored the redirect. If you revert, the next step is probably a deletion discussion. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 03:04, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I think that saying that Dove Awards are "meaningless" completely disregards a whole community, and an award with more than 40 years of trajectory. Plus it is very much a subjective comment. As for Alan Hall, I'm not that knowledgeable about his career to contribute a lot, but on the surface, I do see a certain individual notability in some of the sources provided. But like I said, I'm no expert on him or the band. I might contribute later, after I read more. Thief12 (talk) 15:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Since CCM out-sells Classical and Jazz combined in the US we might as well discount genre-specific awards for them. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Amazon isn't a RS, but todayschristianmusic.com is and the other is somewhat trivial. However, he is a producer as well. This discussion should be taking place on the subject's talk page. The article as it stood before the redirect was added did not meet WP:BAND, but if it were improved with the references given would certainly meet guidelines. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Sure, but that depends greatly on what reliable sources have to say. Drmies (talk) 04:38, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to read them. They're linked above. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

There are two reliable sources given above... the other link is to a wikipage about a magazine. First source is a local news story. It is mostly an interview and talks mostly about the album. Typically, this wouldn't count towards GNG. The second does add information as it would help out filling bio details. However, it mostly talks about his "new" album that was released in 2004, in which the album went nowhere. So, there are two sources that are mostly about a no nothing album and nothing else. Almost any musician that had one album released would have the same refs and wouldn't get an article. There needs to be more independent, reliable sources about his work outside the band. Everything I've found deals with the band, but I'm not an expert in music, especially Christian music.

I wouldn't consider Dove Awards completely meaningless as stated above. However, I'm only aware of Dove Awards given to Hall as a member of the Band.

There are two other band members with articles. Melodie Crittenden left the group and has done quite a bit outside the band. The other is Todd Smith (singer). Smith appears to be in the same boat as Hall and looks very iffy. However, I haven't looked at him more closely... I deal with all new biography articles coming in every day, his isn't new and I wanted to deal with Hall first. So, again, please provide references. Bgwhite (talk) 06:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Civility I was asked to comment by Boguslav. The tone of this discussion is unacceptable. Bgwhite, you've made claims which are demonstrably untrue (leaving edit summaries is not a policy) and rude (making ultimatums about deletion or redirecting.) The claim that Dove Awards are "meaningless" ignores the fact that they are important within the world of Contemporary Christian Music. Publications like Down Beat have much smaller circulations than Rolling Stone, but the audience for jazz is more narrow than rock and pop: the merits of a particular source are weighed in terms of their importance to that topic. Amazon is a completely legitimate source for information concerning Amazon's own ratings, but it is not appropriate for (e.g.) reproducing content from Allmusic--in those cases, refer to the original sources. It's clear that at the very least, this should be a redirect, but it is more important that editors act in a civil and respectful way. As best as I can tell, Boguslav's work on this article is intended to enhance the encyclopedia, even if it somehow deficient or inappropriate (and I have not seen sufficient evidence that it is.) —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion I recommend userfying the potential content in a sandbox and then import it to the main article namespace when you can establish notability with four or more sources, including his production and songwriting credits. If you can generate content that is independent of the article on the band, then this is clearly a justifiable topic. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:51, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that moving the content to a user page to improve is a good option. However, so would leaving the page in-place with a stub cat and refimprove tag. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

While I don't think in its current state this page would stay up long (even though it does meet the criteria), if it were improved even slightly it would be able to stand. This figure is undoubtedly minor even in the Christian scene, but has a number of Dove Awards and the like. Userfying so that it can be improved isn't a bad idea, needless to say. Toa Nidhiki05 17:22, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I am well aware that Allan Hall is not nearly as big as, say Michael W. Smith or Amy Grant, but if wikipedia were reserved for only articles about the Michael Jackson's and Elvis Presley's, we'd never adequately cover any topic. I think editors are also downplaying the Christian music industry because they do not realize how churches work. For example, 3,000 people is considered a very good turn out for a political rally, but hundreds, if not thousands, of large churches across the country gather more than that every Sunday morning. Besides being a member of Selah, Allan Hall is also a producer, songwriter, arranger, engineer, and instrumentalist [4] for projects that have nothing to do with Selah. --BoguSlav 18:00, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not downplaying anything (besides the Dove awards, which seem to be much more credible since the last time I looked at them, a few years ago--but he didn't get that as an individual, did he?). And Bogu, there's a big gap filled with lots of notable artists between Allan Hall and Michael Jackson. But without secondary sources (and this does not bode well) all you can produce in an article is a list of credits, and that strikes me as unencyclopedic in many ways. Drmies (talk) 18:37, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Clearly, this list of credits is not all that I have come up with (refer to other links given above). But I don't see why a list of credits is not a valid source of information. Unless you are suggesting that Allmusic.com is not a reliable source, I think that my link is perfectly valid. It demonstrates him as not only a singer and a musician in albums that have won the Dove Awards, but also as one of the main producers of those albums, which establishes his notablity completely separate of WP:BAND. The link also shows him to be an executive producer of another album in which he did not sing: the album by Monika Herzig, a notable artist in her own right.

I'm not surprised that you can't find much information about him online, as mainstream media does not typically cover Christian music, leaving it up to a few magazines (such as CCM Magazine and christianmusicmonthly), Christian radio stations, and church's websites. As for the link you just provided showing archived news articles about him, wikipedia policy typically considers media coverage to "bode well" as a reliable source, so I think if relevant material is found the link you provided, there would be nothing wrong in using it either.--BoguSlav 19:09, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

• That Google News link, there's nothing there, that's the problem. I don't have much of an issue with citing Allmusic; I have an issue with there being nothing else to cite. You referred to WP:COMPOSER earlier, and your guy might fit one or two of the criteria, but note what it says at the bottom: "Where possible, composers or lyricists with insufficient verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article should be merged into the article about their work. When a composer or lyricist is known for multiple works, such a merger may not be possible." (not my italics--my bold). Since detail suggests text, not a list, that is the situation that applies here, in my opinion: merger. Drmies (talk) 22:17, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

• I've been very busy this past month, so I haven't had time for wikipedia. I try to assume good faith, but in this case, your best reason for removing this article is, frankly, "I Just Don't Like It". Telling me you have a problem "with there being nothing else to cite"? Really?? That's all you got? Why don't you let ME worry about that since I'm the one who is going to write the article, not you. (read WP:AMBW) How are you going to criticize an article that hasn't even been written yet? If you have nothing to add to an article, the general wikipedia concensus is move on to something that you CAN improve. Besides, the link you gave me from google archives has 44 google hits: [5]. The search actually got me a useful link from the Sun Herald. (I have access to the SH, and I could email the article to you if that is allowed) There may be even more articles in that archive search that I haven't looked through yet.

I see this as a strong case of WP:POINT. You've made it clear from the very beginning that you don't consider Christian musicians to be notable. You have a pretty clear bias against Christian music.

Allan Hall IS NOTABLE: "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject." (see WP:BIO). It's not up to you to decide what "multiple" means, and I have provided you with more than 4 sources (I don't feel like counting at the moment). I have also shown above that he fits the criteria for WP:MUSICBIO, WP:COMPOSER, and as a producer.

I've been trying to explain the christian music industry to you or specifically Allan Hall while assuming good faith, but it seems you will not even entertain the idea that your initial action was too hasty. I, for example, have realized that Amazon is probably is not the best source to use, so I've provided alternatives sources to replace it. Instead, you keep denying anything I, or anyone else provides.

It is pretty clear that this article fits the criteria, and within the next few days I plan on recreating it, and working on it some. I will request arbitration if I continue to get Wikipedia:Disruptive editing.

(P.S. I find it curious that you moved this this conversation from my talk page to here, without providing a link on my talk page to here for anyone to be able to continue the discussion besides you. Normally, you should have put a link from there to here so people could see where the conservation is going on now...?--BoguSlav 01:48, 21 May 2012 (UTC)