Talk:Amalgamated hromada

Raions and Communities

With the law creating the new raions of Ukraine which essentially consolidated many raions and councils into new larger raions, does this change the plan for the creation of United territorial communities? Does this make them already obsolete so soon after they were created? --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:13, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

It is suppose to be the other way around.... According to the draft constitutional changes submitted to parliament by President Volodymyr Zelensky United territorial communities are planned to replace raions. But because not all United territorial communities have been formed yet the raions are not yet obsolete. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:39, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

The new raions - given that they amalgamate many previous raions and local councils - appear that they are being created for most of the same reasons as the united territorial communities were created. The only difference - and I guess it would be a pretty significant one - is that the local councils (district cities, settlement councils, and rural councils) in the new raions would keep their adminisrative independence. It just seems to me that that creating larger raions kind of defeats the purposes of the united territorial communities, which was essentially to create a consolidated local council with the same boundaries as the raion (or very close to it) they existed in to cut down on the duplication of governments.

So now that the raions have gotten larger, the united territorial communities will have to try and increase their size to cover more (or all) of the raions, I'd think. Seems counter-productive is all. Why not just speed up the creation of the united territorial communities to replace the raion councils? --Criticalthinker (talk) 07:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Merger reverted

I came across this merger following a discussion at WP:P-NUK. I've reverted it, and restored this article. The reason is simple. The merger conflated the 'hromada', which is a longstanding administrative unit in Ukraine consisting of the like of cities and rural councils, with the new united territorial communities, or 'amalgamated hromadas'. These two things are not the same, and the distinction should be maintained. At present, I think the best title for this article is "United territorial communities", given that Google searches return many more results for this name (50,000 hits) than the other potential names. RGloucester — ☎ 21:24, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

@RGloucester do we really need a separate article for auxiliary units which only existed from 2015 to 2020 during the reform? Before the amendments to the constitution are adopted, new administrative units cannot be created, so in 2020 all amalgamated hromadas were technically abolished and hromadas were just united. When the constitutional amendments will be adopted we do not know, as we do not know what will be the final name of the basic unit of administrative division in Ukraine. Thus I propose to move this article to "Administrative-territorial reform in Ukraine" or even better to "communal reorganisation in Ukraine", which itself is one of the main part of general Decentralisation in Ukraine - a series of reforms to give additional power and resources to local authorities. Delasse (talk) 11:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't necessarily oppose your proposal, but I honestly feel like we should wait until it is clear what is going to happen before merging all of these articles together. RGloucester — ☎ 14:08, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

2 lists in 2 different Wikipedia articles listing the same thing?

Currently in this Wikipedia article there is a list of communities while there is a main article List of united territorial communities of Ukraine.... Are they not both listing the same thing? Or is the list in this Wikipedia article only for the territorial communities that have (or are likely to get soon) a English Wikipedia article? Surly such list should be avoided.... Per Wikipedia:Content forking it is probably better to make the Wikipedia article List of united territorial communities of Ukraine a Wikipedia:Redirect-page to the list on this Wikipedia page. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:03, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with a merger. RGloucester — ☎ 17:25, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Move

Per the discussion at WP:P-NUK, I've moved this article to amalgamated hromada. RGloucester — ☎ 17:38, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 6 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved  — Amakuru (talk) 11:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

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• Amalgamated hromada → Municipalities of Ukraine
• List of amalgamated hromadas of Ukraine → List of municipalities of Ukraine
• Hromada → Hromada (historical)

– Common name. In similar case of Poland (and the Ukrainian reform mirrors polish one, that is claimed even by its authors) the similar names are used: Municipalities of Poland and List of municipalities of Poland. Also Hromada should refirect to Municipalities of Ukraine, because it is the main meaning. @RGloucester and Ymblanter: Ookrainer (talk) 16:47, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I do not have a strong opinion on this (would be fine with me either way), but currently we are using municipalities for what former was the miskradas. I believe all of them are redirects (such as Zolotonosha Municipality), but we should be careful so that it does not make a confusion.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:54, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Also pinging @Yulia Romero:--Ymblanter (talk) 17:00, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

the main meaning of the term municipality is an administrative division, but the term municipality may also mean the governing or ruling body of a given municipality. --Ookrainer (talk) 17:03, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose – We just had a substantial discussion about this at WP:P-NUK. There is a difference between the amalgamated hromadas, which are a new administrative entity, and old hromadas, which are basically 'municipalities'. Both are forms of administrative units. The new amalgamated hromadas are comprised of an 'amalgamation' of various municipalities into a larger entity. 'Municipalities of Ukraine' is thus too vague to be the title of this article, which is not about the old-style municipalities (which still exist in some vestigial form), but about the new amalgamated units. Furthermore, reliable sources simply do not refer to these as 'municipalities'. The accepted English term for these is 'amalgamated territorial communities' or 'united territorial communities', but use of 'amalgamated hromada' is actually more common based on the research done at WP:P-NUK. Therefore, I oppose this move as completely misguided, and based on incomprehensible application of the Polish model to Ukraine. RGloucester — ☎ 18:00, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
  • User:RGloucester, but hromada is also not about the old-style municipalities. Thus at least hromada should be renamed to Hromada (historical). --Ookrainer (talk) 18:18, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
    • Hromada does include some information about the old-style municipalities. It is a general 'concept' article. There is nothing 'historical' about it. RGloucester — ☎ 00:05, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
  • User:RGloucester, there is also diffrence in law. All hromadas which were created before 2020, i. e. in 2015-2020 where created by the law "On voluntary association of territorial communities". And they were called "amalgamated". But all current hromadas are created by diffrent law by government, and not voluntary: see for instance [1], so technically speaking they are the same hromadas as before, without the name "amalgamated", see for example [2]. --Ookrainer (talk) 10:30, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
  • User:RGloucester, [3]: "Закон України «Про добровільне об’єднання територіальних громад» на відповідні правовідносини не поширюється. Тому в назві територіальної громади, територія якої затверджена Кабінетом Міністрів України, слово «об’єднана» у всіх відмінках не застосовується." --Ookrainer (talk) 13:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
  • User:RGloucester, there is even English version: It should be mentioned that the Law of Ukraine On Voluntary Amalgamation of Territorial Hromadas, particularly, in terms of naming an amalgamated territorial hromada and its local self-government representative body as a legal entity, does not cover the legal relations. Thus, the word “amalgamated” is not used in the name of a territorial hromada, the territory of which has been approved of by the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine. --Ookrainer (talk) 15:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure, but a distinction still exists between those formed by either new process and the original hromadas pre-reform, regardless of what they are officially called. Again, we follow reliable secondary sources, and reliable sources make this distinction clear. Certainly, no reliable sources support calling these 'municipalities'. RGloucester — ☎ 15:44, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

• • • User:RGloucester yes, the distinction still exists. But do we need to have two separate articles for this? Can we describe this (quite tiny) distinction between the new hromadas post-reform and the original hromadas pre-reform in one article? Then there is no problem with the name, we can simple use the name 'hromada'. And there are plenty of reliable sources calling them 'hromada's. --Ookrainer (talk) 15:57, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

No, because if we name the article 'hromadas', it must also include urban-type settlements, towns, villages, etc., and these are fundamentally different from what the new amalgamated hromadas, which also have greater powers (and are intended to replace the raions). RGloucester — ☎ 02:23, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

User:RGloucester, you are not fully right. Cities, urban-type settlements, villages are types of settlements in Ukraine. Hromadas are municipalities. Before the reform also some 'hromadas' (i. e. municipalities) included several settlements. Now after the reform (which was actually just a communal municipal reorganisation) most of the hromadas include several settlements (but for example Uzhhorod city hromada includes only city Uzhhorod) Ookrainer (talk) 17:00, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

This is not correct. The constitution of Ukraine specifies that broad term 'hromadas' included all forms of settlement administrations. RGloucester — ☎ 19:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Also pinging @DDima:, since he is "the main Ukraine-related geographical editors from way back in the days" — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:43, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose – Hmm.... This was a though one .... Looking at Wikipedia:Article titles#Deciding on an article title "Municipalities of Ukraine" is clearly a Recognisable and Natural name (for these new administrative units) for English speakers. But (as pointed out above here) Precision and Conciseness seem to be speak out against the proposed renaming since other subjects also seem to have a claim to be called "Municipalities of Ukraine" (miskradas and old-style municipalities (which still exist in some vestigial form)). And these new administrative units do not seem to have an name that has established usage in English-language sources.... but what I read in English language websites about them is that they were never named as "Municipalities" (which makes the naming of these new administrative units as "Municipalities of Ukraine" less Recognisable). Hence I oppose the renaming of the article for now. Although in the future if these new administrative units get to be called "Municipalities" in reliable sources a lot and thus their established name in English-language sources we can rename this article then (remember that in September 2020 English Wikipedia switched from using Kiev to Kyiv). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:43, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
• Support. There is no way that the current title is the WP:COMMONNAME in English. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:37, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Hromada → Hromada (historical) - that article is about the term. TerraCyprus (talk) 21:45, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.