Talk:America's Next Top Model season 18

It's great a page has been started, but MAKE SURE you have sufficient references. Also, please don't go overboard with the tables everyone. I know it's exiting, but it will only get in the way. Also, the contestant tables will have to be merged at some point once eliminations take place. Trafalk09 (talk) 16:08, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

It needs third party sources to establish notability and so it meets verifiability at the moment we only have the word of the production teams blog. Mtking ^(edits) 05:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Delete This page fails to show any enduring notability WP:NOTABLE and as a result fails criteria for WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. This even also lacks proper validation of the contest, providing no reliable sources of information on said show WP:IRS as taking a scripted show's word that it's not scripted isn't reliable WP:RELIABLE. Most of it is speculation WP:CRYSTAL and since Wiki is not a fan site for America's Next Top Model fans WP:NOT this page should be deleted as there is already a America's Next Top Model page for information on the show. These individual pages serve as nothing more than promotion and that violates WP:SOAP — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mississippistfan (talk • contribs) 14:47, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

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Rank ?

This page needs to be deleted. There are no reliable sources WP:RELIABLE to verify any of the information. No enduring notability has been established WP:NOTABLE beyond promotional means and Wiki is not a fan site WP:NOT There is nothing beyond the production teams claims to validate any information here, violating WP:OR Please remove these pages or merge them together into the America's Next Top Model main page as these pages just serve as WP:LINKFARM and is against Wiki policy WP:NOTREPOSITORY Also, as other users state, this is a competition aka an event which doesn't meet WP:EVENT

A source needs to be provided for the rank, I have not d/l the first eps, was it clearly stated that Jasmia came 14th ? Unless it was this WP making assumptions and the claim should be removed as WP:OR. Mtking ^(edits) 05:31, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Jasmia was the first girl to be eliminated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snickerfritz (talk • contribs) 09:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

That was not the question, I understand she was the first to be eliminated, that is not the same as saying she was 14th. Mtking ^(edits) 10:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

WHAT?! :D 136.8.33.70 (talk) 12:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Very simple, did they say on the show she was 14th, has anyone other than WP published that she was 14th or is it just us assuming she was 14th. We have no idea, if, for example in say week 3, four new girls may enter the show? So unless we can source it, it will be removed. Mtking ^(edits) 22:33, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

She was fourteenth because she was the first model to be eliminated out of fourteen girls.. We've never had this issue before on Wikipedia regarding a model's rank on the show before... So, this is baffling, and honestly confusing and frankly, a waste of time... WereWolf (talk) 02:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is no reason to have inaccuracies on this article; WP:OR is the policy here, if the article is to retain the claim that "Jasmia was 14th" it needs a source. Mtking ^(edits) 02:36, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. What do you want? An email from Tyra for each eliminated contestant? Jasmina is in 14th place; there's no reason to have a source. The EPISODE IS THE SOURCE. WereWolf (talk) 02:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Who says she was 14th ? all that can be said is she was first to be eliminated anything else is interpretation so yes we need to show that others (and not just WP editors) consider her to be in 14th place, this, (as I have to keep reminding fans here) is an Encyclopaedia and not a fansite, if we say she is 14th it has to be because others accept that, so demonstrate it with a source. Mtking ^(edits) 02:55, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

There is no point in adding a source though! The episode is its own source! I don't know why that's so difficult to comprehend; not everything on this site needs a secondary source... WereWolf (talk) 03:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

The episode is a source to the fact she was first to be eliminated nothing more, so as this would appear to be WP editors making assumptions, yes we do need a source or change the table to say "Eliminated in Eps 1" Mtking ^(edits) 03:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, simply placing the names in the given order, and explaining the order with ( Names in order of elimination) or any equivalent of that, would drop the need to give the contestants a rank or finish, as was the issue for Angelea in cycle 17 or Amber back in cycle 13. As for double eliminations, the idea above this reply would work just fine ex - Eliminated week 1... etc. It was done here back in cycle 7, and there were no issues. We still need sources though. It's not about whether we believe it or not, but rather a requirement for edits such as the ones that are being made on the article. Trafalk09 (talk) 03:29, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't mind either as per cycle 7, or change the field "Rank" to "Eliminated in" and list the episode, as for a source, if it is as simple as just listing the eps a girl was eliminated in then the eps can act as a source (all be it a primary one). On balance would lean towards the table one.Mtking ^(edits) 04:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Wait just a second, let's back up here. Did I just read this correctly? Are you being 100% serious in how essential the use of the word 'rank' or 'outcome' is to the quality of this article's content, when there are many other areas of this article in need of attention?

First off, Mtking, I'd like to draw your attention to a few things.

*This show is a contest.

*Contests are competitions.

*In competitions, there are winners and there are losers.

*This show uses elimination to identify people who do not win.

*If you do not win, then you have lost.

*If you have lost before someone else has lost, this means they did better in the competition than you, but did not win.

*This means that in a measure of your success at the competitive nature of the contest, you performed lower on a quantitative measure of success

*This is known as, ranking, or and the measure of your success out of a group, is known as a rank.

*There is a reason the show is named "America's Next Top Model" and not "America's Next Woman Who is Equally as Attractive in her Own Special Ways Compared to the Other Contestants and Should Try Again Because She's Beautiful and Can Do Whatever she Puts her Mind to if She Wants To, Including Be A Model"

If at any point, the show refers to itself as a competition, then in accordance to the social accepted idea which is communicated by the use of the word 'competition' to identify the format of the show, there is an acceptance that the earlier you are eliminated, the worse you performed in the competition. This is known as a competitive contest.

When describing how well someone performed in a competitive contest, it is done so in the form of a 'rank' based upon their position in the given measure of success.

To even attempt to argue that instead, the term outcome, a purely neutral and non-competitive term is used is a blatant instance of Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing, which is anything but helpful to the formation of an encyclopedia.

Even further, when the point you raise has little or nothing to do with the actual content and information provided to the reader in this article, you are in turn causing disruption to the efforts made to improve this article through wasted time and effort, as the focus becomes the civility of a word used rather than the content of the article itself, thus being a blatant example of Wikipedia:SHED

In extension, rejecting the episode as a citation for the use of the word 'rank' to refer to an individuals elimination along a yet to develop sequence of eliminations culminating in the quantification of someone's success at the competition is to simply go to far. Here you are just demanding citation over the choice of word used in a dictonary to communicate an idea, when said word is commonly and widely accepted. If you demand citation fo this feel free to consult the following essay which serves as a supplement to the Wikipedia Policy on Verifibility Wikipedia:When to cite#When a source may not be needed

It is also possible that this may not be a pedantic argument from you and in fact be well-intentioned, where instead you have a misunderstanding on the definition of some common terms in the english language, as such I have provided below a list of links to articles on concepts described in this talk which help to explain what the word means and help your understanding of such words so we need not see this ocurr again :)

*Competition

*Contest

*Ranking

*Ranking#Examples of ranking

In conclusion, I'm going to be bold (Wikipedia:Be bold) and I shall make changes to the table that identify the position in the contest based on elimination as being rank, while also including in a bracket next to said rank the episode in which they were eliminated.

Now that a third party, uninvolved in the original debate and therefore with no conflict of interests, bias or interest in 'winning' has come in and made changes to shut down this example of Wikipedia:SHED, I do hope that this article will now be able to recieve the attention to content it needs to allow it to serve as an example of Wikipedia's encyclopedic value. Thank you for your time in reading this. Terkaal -- <Warning! Self-Confessed Newbie!> (talk) 07:51, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

But what about girls who enter as replacements, expanding the number of existing ranks? A 6th placer should not become a 7th placer and so on. The show does not provide a way around this problem. The new table format allows a way of solving this.98.206.38.163 (talk) 21:33, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

@Terkaal; that is all well and good, but you missed the fundamental problem, without a reliable source to attest to the rank the insertion of a rank becomes WP editors original research which we don't do, so if you can show that reliable sources are giving them a rank then so can we. Mtking ^(edits) 21:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Proposed new table layout

Contestant	Age	Home City	Outcome
Jasmia Robinson	24	London, England	Eliminated in Episode 1

Not sure about the heading for the last field, so comments please Mtking ^(edits) 02:09, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support I think the new table would be just fine, as it leaves less room for debate. Trafalk09 (talk) 16:54, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

 Done. Mtking ^(edits)

This new table sucks, its going to be big in the end anyways. ARGH!!!!!!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.93.78 (talk) 04:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

like really? Jasmia is 14th because she was eliminated FIRST out of FOURTEEN competitors. what part is hard to get on this one? I really cannot believe some users here are so eager to change a working system lately. Shameless (talk) 21:20, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

This table really does suck, its rubbish! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.93.78 (talk) 22:52, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Should there just be one table ?

Should there be just a single table such as :

(Still in the running unless stated & ages stated are at time of contest)

From	Contestant	Age	Home City	Outcome
	AzMarie Livingston	24	Milwaukee, Wisconsin
	Candace Smith	22	Brooklyn, New York
	Eboni Davis	18	Seattle, Washington
	Kyle Gober	20	Magnolia, Texas
	Laura LaFrate	20	Scotia, New York
	Mariah Watchman	20	Pendleton, Oregon
	Seymone Cohen-Fobish	19	Augusta, Georgia
	Jasmia Robinson	24	London, England	Eliminated in Episode 1
	Alisha White	20	South London, England
	Annaliese Dayes	24	London, England
	Ashley Brown	22	Armadale, Scotland
	Catherine Thomas	22	Folkestone, England
	Louise Watts	25	Essex, England
	Sophie Sumner	21	Oxford, England

It keeps all the information in one place. Mtking ^(edits) 05:46, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support I think the new format is much orderly, but i would suggest listing the contestants in order of elimination as opposed to listing them in alphabetical order when they have already been eliminated. Those that remain in the running, should be listed alphabetically. This is just an example:

(Still in the running unless stated & ages stated are at time of contest)

From	Contestant	Age	Home City	Outcome
	Jasmia Robinson	24	London, England	Eliminated in Episode 1
	AzMarie Livingston	24	Milwaukee, Wisconsin
	Candace Smith	22	Brooklyn, New York
	Eboni Davis	18	Seattle, Washington
	Kyle Gober	20	Magnolia, Texas
	Laura LaFrate	20	Scotia, New York
	Mariah Watchman	20	Pendleton, Oregon
	Seymone Cohen-Fobish	19	Augusta, Georgia
	Alisha White	20	South London, England
	Annaliese Dayes	24	London, England
	Ashley Brown	22	Armadale, Scotland
	Catherine Thomas	22	Folkestone, England
	Louise Watts	25	Essex, England
	Sophie Sumner	21	Oxford, England

Any comments? Trafalk09 (talk) 00:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It all seems silly, but if you did it, then should be done in all projects "Top Model series". KIRILL95 (talk) 18:06, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The call out tables have been redesigned in nearly all major versions of the show. I don't think it's silly, as it provides information as it is given to us. The show isn't a pageant or beauty contest where women are given a rank. I think this table format should be used as well.Trafalk09 (talk) 21:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

for the record, support Trafalk09's sorting rules. Mtking ^(edits) 20:12, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I meant the table, which is higher ("Contestants"). KIRILL95 (talk) 19:24, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

These changes don't bother me, and I think it successfully avoids issues like "is Angelea considered 3rd place?", though I do think it's rather silly to assert that Jasmia is not verifiably the 14th place finisher -- especially when the reason is "what if other girls get added?", which has never happened before in 18 cycles. The winner is, by definition, 1st place; the final person eliminated before them is the runner-up aka, also by definition, 2nd place; therefore, according to this principle, the person eliminated before the runner-up is 3rd place; and so on. Just my two cents. MarkMc1990 (talk) 06:52, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

The winner is not Eboni. Wrong information. The winner should read Sophie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.245.59.9 (talk) 14:55, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 March 2012

I watch Top Model weekly, so I'm sure I can give an accurate editing on the Cycle 18 page.

Snickerfritz (talk) 09:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

No request made. Mtking ^(edits) 10:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Call-out

Do not you think that the complete table to save time of filling? KIRILL95 (talk) 08:30, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

WP:NODEADLINE, a mainly black table just looks silly, further it speculates on future eps, it is very easy to add the new col's as each week is screened. Mtking ^(edits) 08:36, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit requeston 4 March 2012

Although a minor edit, please link bullet time to the bit where written 60 cameras capturing them, because when I watched that shoot, I was thinking The Matrix and who wouldn't. I am not bothered at all if this request is declined. Donnie Park (talk) 14:50, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 March 2012

Arvintaylor10 (talk) 23:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC) Episode 2: Kris Jenner. The remaining girls recieve makeovers and pose as toddlers with Kris Jenner and her two daughters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arvintaylor10 (talk • contribs)

Declined. Not a race, put together a full update after the show airs then come back. Mtking ^(edits) 23:51, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 March 2012

I think that the names on the elimination table should have a color background representing the Americans and the Britains. Like blue for the American models and red for the Britain models. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.116.240 (talk) 00:08, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't that violate Wikipedia's policy of No original research? Also, the flags for each respective girls are already on the contestant list. I find that to be rather unnecessary. What happens when the girl wins? Wouldn't there be an overlap of colors? Trafalk09 (talk) 23:04, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Makeovers Issue

I feel that the list of makeovers is somewhat incorrect and, in some cases, incomplete. For example, it says as Alisha's makeover, shaved on one side (I am not sure of the exact wording). It was not mentioned that she get a chest-length weave on the other side. Her hair was about 2 inches long before her makeover, so I feel that this is an important fact. Other makeovers have similar issues to this ("Super straight weave" [Candace] - her hair was dyed a lighter brown as well; "Shave design" [AzMarie] - "ANTM" was shaved into the back, not just a random design; "Extra long weave" [Eboni]- her hair was styled to make it wavier and her hair was dip-dyed copper on the ends {also put into "pig-tails"); etc.) Also, some have color issues ("Milk Chocolate Weave" [Kyle] - Her hair was dyed copper, which is MUCH lighter than a milk-chocolate color; "Magenta Pink" [Catherine] - Her hair was not dyed a magenta/pink color, it was dyed bright red; "Strawberry Blunt Cut" [Ashley] - This is plain wrong: Her hair was style was not changed {or if it was, it isn't noticeable}, so mentioning a cut at all is useless, and her hair is not "strawberry", it is brown with copper/blond highlights; etc.) I would list the makeovers like the following:

Model	Makeover
Alisha	Shaved on one side, chest-length, wavy, black weave on the other
Annaliese	Black, crazy, teased weave
Ashley	Shoulder length, brown (with copper/brown highlights) bob
AzMarie	"ANTM" shaved into the back of the head
Candace	Straight, long, brown weave
Catherine	Bright red, long, wavy weave
Eboni	Wavy, brown, dip-dyed copper "pig-tails"
Kyle	Long, straight, copper weave with blunt bangs
Laura	Chest-lenth, straight, platinum blond, red, and blue hair
Louise	Very short, light brown, layered hair
Mariah	Straight, black, dip-dyed copper weave with blunt bangs
Seymone	Chest-length, dark brown, wavy weave
Sophie	Light pink, straight, short bob-type style

--Antmelouairtvg (talk) 20:18, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I think this is the exact reason makeovers were deemed unnecessary for ANTM articles - they edge too close to being Original Research.84.13.38.32 (talk) 22:13, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean? --Antmelouairtvg (talk) 23:43, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

He means that we don't know exactly what the girls got, because Tyra (or the producers) didn't specifically give a list of all changes during makeovers, therefore - the list was probably made by a user here. The table cannot be verified, and should be removed. Trafalk09 (talk) 03:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I see what you mean now. I just feel that if there is a list at all, it should be a bit more accurate. --Antmelouairtvg (talk) 19:43, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Name Issue

Isn't AzMarie's real name Ashley? (Ashley "AzMarie" Livingston) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.97.59.91 (talk) 11:19, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes - http://www.jsonline.com/entertainment/tvradio/nicolet-grad-storms-top-model-runway-qj4agds-140654683.html136.8.33.71 (talk) 13:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

"Estelle" episode - are the names of the young girls really important?

There's a table showing the contestants and the name of the young girl who they participated with on the challenge - is this really important? I don't think the names of the young girls aren't important as every contestant had the same challenge - to make a short film with a young girl who'd had a troubled life. Surely a paragraph indicating the nature of the challenge is enough? The girls' names add nothing to the article.136.8.33.71 (talk) 13:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 May 2012

The international destinations for this cycle were Toronto, Canada (for one episode) and the Special Administrative Regions of Macau and Hong Kong in China. This is the second time the show has traveled to China; Shanghai and Beijing were visited in Cycle 9. This is the second time the show has traveled to more than one country during a season, the show has traveled to Montego Bay, Jamaica and Tokyo, Japan in Cycle 3. Walablack (talk) 05:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

 Not Done : No change proposed. Please propose what you want changed. Mtking ^(edits) 07:07, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

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