Talk:America: Imagine the World Without Her/Archive 5

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Reviews - starting from scratch

Per WP:RTMC: "The "Top Critics" at Rotten Tomatoes and the critics at Metacritic are generally considered reliable and authoritative sources and are ideal for sampling." I took the lists of the RT "Top Critics" and the Metacritic critics for this film and found six critics who were cited in both places. I selected four of the six and used only the pull quotes that were used by RT and Metacritic (in some cases, by both) and excerpted no other material from their reviews. I thought six was too many, and all six were unfavorable reviews anyway. I can't think of a way to make the selection process any more objective than this. It leaves out Christian Toto, but it also leaves out that evil liberal plotter Peter Sobczynski that Victor has such a seething hatred for, so it's a wash. Gamaliel (talk) 06:10, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Quotemining makes terrible articles. POV quotemining makes bad articles worse. Section was cut down to simple facts without quotes or ideological POVs. Every quote you chose seemed to be based on the critics ideological review rather than a critical assessment of the film itself. Are critics "fact-checkers" such that they can make sweeping statements about truthiness and be considered a reliable source? --DHeyward (talk) 07:36, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

It would be better if you can summarize critical assessment of the film itself. "Reliance on dramatizations over interviews" was a criticism of the style and is valid film critic area of expertise. It's harder to make them into content experts, though, so facile and strawman are harder to stick. As an example, whether a film critic believed "Life of Pi" was true or not based on his personal experience with tigers might be in his review but it's not ripe for the WP article on the film. --DHeyward (talk) 07:59, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

"Cherry picked"? "POV quotemining"? These accusations make no sense given the methodology I used to include the quotes, which removed almost all human intervention and made the most representative selection possible of the "critical assessment". Your objections lie with the selections and decisions made by RT and Metacritic. When we had eight quotes, I can understand the objection of "quotesoup", but half that number is reasonable to include, which is why I only used four instead the six I could have. None is unreasonable. Including review excerpts is standard in film articles, and of all the editors who have discussed the matter here, so far you are the only editor to favor the opposite approach. Gamaliel (talk) 15:08, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Overkill in quotes to show just how horrid the fake-umentary is is not really needed, and when people engage in making absolutely sure every reader knows how evil the film is simply negates the primary rules of Wikipedia - including the non-negotiable principle of "neutral point of view." At this point, we have the neat position where the only remotely positive review suggested for inclusion, which was specifically found to be reliably sourced in the RfC above, is not mentioned at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:23, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

NPOV requires fair and proportional representation. The overall critical assessment is poor, and the article should reflect that. Claiming that quotes which reflect the critical assessment violate NPOV turns NPOV on its head. Gamaliel (talk) 15:57, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Um -- since I edited without a single favourable review in the edit, that would seem a reasonable percentage. Might you tell me how I could get to over 100% negative with a straight face? I would rather think 100% is an upper bound mathematically - can you get higher? Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. I could just as easily say you violated NPOV by reducing the negative representation by 50%. Gamaliel (talk) 16:07, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I trust you will read the Joseph Widney article which I reduced in size by 160,000 bytes, or about 80%, thus making it a "Good Article". Having a hundred negative reviews against zero positive reviews is not "more neutral" than having two negative major reviews and zero positive reviews. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:16, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

In hopes of finding common ground regarding your concerns while keeping this article in line with other film articles, I'm going to try to reduce the length of the quotes instead of their number. Gamaliel (talk) 04:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Given the unusual circumstances surrounding this film and the politicized reception, it's clear that linking directly to any review will be a poison pill inviting further expansion. If you add negative quotes I will restore a positive one, probably the Breitbart review, since among all reviews it has by far the most endorsement on this page. There is no policy mandating a certain ratio of positive to negative quotes. That most pro critics panned the film (not to be confused with the total reception, which was more positive than negative) is made clear by the section leading off with the aggregation scores, avoiding any danger of a false equivalence. The purpose of the quotes would not be to precisely represent weight in character space, but provide coverage of the salient, differing points of view. We don't need several quotes essentially repeating themselves.

Your op here links to a non binding essay someone wrote, and even it says "Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic, are considered reliable sources, but information from them should be used in proper context and have some limitations"....and "critical reception should also benefit from other reliable sources". The actual film guidelines only really mention Top Critics to say "There is a consensus against using the "Top Critics" scores at Rotten Tomatoes based on several concerns:". By contrast, total RT and MC aggregations are listed as "citable", but there's nothing mandating we use them, much less restrict ourselves to the sample of critics they happen to choose for a particular movie. Guidelines do say that "Sources that are regarded as reliable are professional film critics, though notable persons or experts connected to the topics covered by the film may also be cited." Nothing about them having to come from RT, much less RT's "Top Critics". We're also instructed to provide a "reasonable balance" of quotes, but we aren't required to provide quotes at all, especially given the unusual issues at play here. Guidelines call on us to use "best judgment", flexible instruction implying adaptability to differing circumstances. Any honest editor will admit that critical reception to this movie has at least largely broken down along political lines, so best judgment cautions us to be wary about only quoting from one side. VictorD7 (talk) 19:55, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Gamaliel. Again with the Daily Kos source? really? You know better than that. Arzel (talk) 20:31, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

What is the problem with this source? If this is a political documentary, it makes sense to include and attribute political commentary. The key is to structure that commentary per WP:STRUCTURE. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The RFC established that fringe political websites like Brietbart and Daily Kos are allowable sources to reference their own reviews. Gamaliel (talk) 20:37, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

No, actually the RFC established that the news/opinion site Breitbart and its pro film reviewer Christian Toto are RS here. It said nothing about non pro film critics on truly fringe liberal group blogs. That said, I agree with Erik that expanded political commentary is appropriate for an explicitly political film, including commentary about the reception itself (which is common, as I've shown before), as long as we fully cover both sides, and you don't try to engage in one sided censorship. VictorD7 (talk) 21:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

One-sided censorship? Like when you deleted only the liberal reviews? I do so enjoy patient reasoned argumentation like this from you, it reminds me of visiting the monkey cage. Gamaliel (talk) 21:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Except that never happened, lol. You seem particularly upset today, Gamaliel. What's the matter? VictorD7 (talk) 21:22, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I guess we have always been at war with Eastasia. Gamaliel (talk) 21:32, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I only deleted the quotes from non-critics; all such quotes from non-liberals had already been dropped down the memory hole (deleted), so there were only liberal ones left to delete (you left out what a late great radio host might call the rest of the story). Now that there's sentiment for expanding the Reception section beyond pro film critics, both perspectives are represented. VictorD7 (talk) 01:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Can we all please focus on the content? I agree with the conclusion of the RFC because we are dealing with statements of opinion here (see WP:RSOPINION), and the conclusion should extend to similar sources on the other end of the political spectrum. If sources are notable (Wikipedia's notability standards can be one rule of thumb), then opinions published by them can be noteworthy. I am fine with including and attributing both conservative and liberal statements in this article, though I would prefer to paraphrase where possible to get away from any slang that may be used. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 21:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Sounds acceptable to me, Erik, but you see with this revert by Gamaliel the kind of intractable, one sided, POV censorship I'm talking about having to deal with. He deleted almost all the conservative commentary while leaving the liberal pundit attacks. Gamaliel even violated 3RR to do it, his edit summary containing nothing but what I surmise is his family photo album (set to some touching audio). Maybe he miscounted his reverts, so I politely notified him on his talk page. Regardless, clearly the current page grossly violates NPOV. I'll add that the two commentators he completely deleted, John Fund and Ben Shapiro, are both notable (along with their publications, of course), while none of the leftist pundits he put into the article are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles, and it looks like only one pro film critic is. VictorD7 (talk) 03:01, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

After all that you've put up with, and yet you still manage to engage in patient reasoned argumentation. Your talents are wasted on Wikipedia, truly. Have you considered bringing your brand of patient reasoned argumentation to a struggling inner city school? Within six months they will all be getting 5s on the AP Calculus exam. Gamaliel (talk) 04:17, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I know, sometimes my patience astonishes even me. I don't spend that much time on Wikipedia though.VictorD7 (talk) 18:40, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

New tags

One is supposed to post talk page rationales when they add things like NPOV tags, as I did. For the record, since there seems to be some confusion, the conservative perspective is not a "minority political view" as it was erroneously called in a recent edit summary. RT style aggregations are only meaningful from a weight standpoint when assessing pro film critics' views. When the scope of coverage is expanded beyond that narrow set, as it appropriately has been here given the film's political nature, the negative skew goes out the window. There is a lot of positive material about this movie, especially from conservative commentators.VictorD7 (talk) 18:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I do not find the tags necessary. I think that there could be more copy-editing, especially not to quote directly so much, but otherwise, the grouping of content is fine. However, I think at least in the "Political commentary" section, we should attribute the political stances of the sources attributed. If these sources' Wikipedia articles open with the political slant, we should state them here so readers unfamiliar with the sources don't have to go to the articles to find that out. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 18:54, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't necessarily oppose tagging the pundits "conservative" and "liberal", as long as we're even handed, though I'm not sure how necessary it is. Regarding the quotes, I think allowing full coverage of a thought is more important than worrying too much about character length. Sometimes that can be done easily with a sentence fragment, especially when one is essentially just name calling, but other times it might require a sentence or a sentence and a half. I think right now the combined negative quotes sufficiently cover that perspective, which is given more space, number of reviews, and emphasis (especially leading off with the aggregations) in the pro critic section, with the positive quote being slightly longer than the average negative quote (much smaller than the combined liberal quote paragraph) but needing more space to fully cover that view since it's the only positive quote used. VictorD7 (talk) 19:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

You've been taking here about this for months, you are well aware of the rationale. The section gives the longest quote to a conservative review, included solely because of its political viewpoint, because it would obviously be excluded by any objective methodology for selecting quotes based on the critical consensus. All the reviews from liberal publications were removed to another section. This is a biased presentation which gives undue weight to Toto's minority viewpoint. Gamaliel (talk) 20:45, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I think that's a good point. The Daily Kos and Salon passages both state that the pieces are film reviews. These should be in the same camp as Breitbart. Media Matters for America, on the other hand, is not labeled a review and can stay in the "Political commentary" section. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:49, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

No, being an established pro film critic is more than having one piece labeled "review" on a group blog. Toto's extensive credentials are laid out all over this page. So far I've seen no evidence that the Kos and Salon bloggers are critics. They don't even seem like major members of those blogs, much less people who have had reviews published by various outlets, have had their reviews cited and quoted by mainstream media, are members of professional critics organizations, etc., like Toto. If there's evidence to the contrary I'd be happy to see it. VictorD7 (talk) 03:07, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with your premises. The Toto quote is only slightly the longest, because it's making a more complex point than tossing out a bunch of invective, and far shorter than the combined negative quotes. The pro critic weight skews negative, and our coverage clearly reflects that, especially with the extended RT/MC segment. There's no false equivalence. But, ideology aside, the positive view merits some coverage to achieve reasonable balance. Toto happens to be conservative, but all of the other publications and negative critics in the pro critic section are liberal. Everyone has their political views. What makes the liberal and conservative pundits in the other section different is that they aren't pro film critics. VictorD7 (talk) 03:07, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The Wrap, Variety, and The A.V. Club are all entertainment publications, not political ones. Brietbart is an explicitly political publication so it should be coupled with reviews from explicitly political publications of different perspectives per NPOV. Gamaliel (talk) 03:53, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

There's no policy, guideline, or good reason to disregard the writers and only categorize by publication. Toto is an established pro film critic who used to write reviews for the Washington Times, and he'd be RS as a film critic even if we were using his personal blog as a source. Besides, Breitbart is a major news/opinion site and not the equivalent of group blogs like Kos and Salon. It happens to be conservative. So? The NY Times, The Wrap, and CNN all happen to be liberal. Policy explicitly states that bias doesn't disqualify sources from being used, and Breitbart's political leanings don't change the fact that Toto is a pro film critic who usually reviews non political movies. If you want to group all the critics and pundits together that would be one thing, but if we're making a distinction then Toto belongs with the pro critics. VictorD7 (talk) 04:36, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

You are singling out Toto because of his political orientation and the political orientation of his publication. You can't do that without presenting other political viewpoints, and you can't claim that every single one of dozens of non-political entertainment and general news publications and critics mentioned on this page as meeting the criteria for inclusion in that section are all "liberal". The reception section should be representative of the non-political consensus of film critics. if you want to introduce politics into that through Toto, then NPOV requires representing all political points of view. Gamaliel (talk) 04:46, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

No I'm not. I pushed for Toto's inclusion (assuming that's what you meant by "singling out") because it was a positive review, and that side needed at least some coverage for reasonable balance, per an earlier talk page agreement. First I supported other editors' attempts to include the RT cited positive review of Offer, who may be a liberal for all I know, but you rejected him because you didn't like the way his blog looked, saying you'd accept a positive review but that it should be from an "established critic" (I believe those were your exact words). Toto is a very established pro critic. Sure, having at least one conservative perspective when all the other pro critics quoted are attacking D'Souza's politics and conservatism in general (of course they're liberal, like most of the entertainment industry) is especially important in an article covering a political film, but that just strengthens the case. I'd support a positive quote anyway. Of course the liberal perspective, both critic and pundit, is well represented, and the mostly negative state of pro critic opinion has been covered all along. VictorD7 (talk) 05:06, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Months ago, I stated that I was willing to consider including Avi Offer if any editor could substantiate that he or his publication had any sort of audience or positive reputation or anything at all besides being on RT. You keep mentioning him, but you are unwilling to provide any of that evidence. I'm not singlehandedly keeping Offer out, I just raised my concerns on the talk page, and for that you've been sniping at me for months. You want Offer in? Provide evidence or develop a consensus for inclusion, otherwise WP:DROPTHESTICK. In regards to critics in general, "of course they're liberal, like most of the entertainment industry" is your personal opinion, not substantiated by policy or evidence or supported by consensus (and irrelevant anyway since they are writing for non-political general entertainment and news publications), so that personal opinion should not be guiding article content. Gamaliel (talk) 05:18, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get Offer in now. I only mentioned him to refute the notion that I'm only supporting Toto because he leans conservative. I support Toto's inclusion because he's the most prominent pro critic to positively review the film, and therefore the best choice to represent the positive critic sentiment. That he represents an ideological perspective otherwise lacking in the section is just a bonus. Those other outlets may be narrower in focus, but they're no more "non-political" than Breitbart is. Regardless, our respective assessments of their politics is secondary. The bottom line is that they could all be conservative, liberal, or non-political, and it wouldn't change the fact that Toto is an "established", well credentialed, pro film critic, so if we're creating a pro critic section he belongs in it. Speaking of WP:DROPTHESTICK, we just had months of debate culminating in an RFC that didn't go your way. At some point maybe you should step back and let this Toto/Breitbart thing go. Including that one quote can't possibly cause you this much pain. VictorD7 (talk) 05:43, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Here I was thinking you were finally trying to be mature about this, but you just couldn't stop yourself from including more of that patient reasoned argumentation that we all enjoy. Gamaliel (talk) 05:54, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I really hope you're not complaining about me commenting on the WP:DROPTHESTICK concept you raised.VictorD7 (talk) 05:58, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, do you think your parting shot is really an example of patient reasoned argumentation? Do you think that it furthers this discussion and gets us towards resolution? Have you considered that this discussion has gone on for months not because of everyone else's behavior, but because of yours? Gamaliel (talk) 06:05, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm just trying to understand why this is such a big deal to you. It's a big deal to me because it represents the section's only positive quote, and because the sourcing rationale used to exclude it just because it came from Breitbart was, as another editor put it, "odious". It was important to establish a consensus that Breitbart is RS in situations like this; perfectly fine to use. That consensus being established, I'm obviously not going to walk away if that means the quote gets purged from a section still filled with negative quotes. But why is this so important to you? The quote itself is fairly innocuous, and all the section's other quotes are still negative. That said, you're obviously under no obligation to answer a personal question; you can tell me to screw off or just ignore it if you want to. But you can't ignore the fact that Toto is an established professional critic, while Kos's Falcone and Salon's Bruenig aren't.VictorD7 (talk) 06:14, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

"I'm just trying to understand why this is such a big deal to you." is not a response to the guestion of "Why are you acting like a jackass?" Gamaliel (talk) 17:47, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I rejected your premise. VictorD7 (talk) 20:34, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

The film has an 8% rating on RT amongst professional critics. That is an almost universally panned film. It would be inaccurate that a "well-balanced" article would include positive and negative review of the film, you would have to deliberately cherry pick good reviews because there appear to be so few of them. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 01:49, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Maybe we could expand on quoting the negative reviews? We could quote The Washington Post since it is a very well-known periodical, as well as The Hollywood Reporter, which with Variety makes up the major film-related trade journals. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:13, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

No, there are enough positive reviews that even an article that only focused on pro film critics should include at least one to cover that perspective. But, of course, this being a political documentary, the set of views has been expanded beyond pro film critics, and the broader reception was far more positive.VictorD7 (talk) 20:34, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

(od) Four negative reviews along with the RT and MetaCritic cites stating that the reviews were overwhelmingly negative would appear to be quite sufficient. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:00, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Most well-developed film articles have a good number of reviews. I understand that we don't want to repeat "it's bad" over and over, but the point of referencing individual critics is to expand on the particulars of the consensus. Basically answering the question of what elements worked or didn't work for the critic. I find it very shotgun-editing to just have a quoted sentence from each critic (and I admit I do that sometimes). Something like American Beauty (1999 film)#Critical reception weaves the critics appropriately. I don't know if we'd get to that FA level, but we should strive for it. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:08, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

That is the ideal, but we can't even get to the point where we can agree what critics to include, much less figure out how to weave them together without accusations of cherry picking. Hell, all I did was cut and paste only the quotes used by both Metacritic and RT and I was accused of cherrypicking. I think first we have to get a stable article. Gamaliel (talk) 17:47, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Four seems like a reasonable number if we limit the section to non-political reviews. Gamaliel (talk) 17:47, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Edit request: Category addition

Could someone add Category:Lions Gate Entertainment films? Trivialist (talk) 23:33, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree with adding this category. Uncontroversial edit to make. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Done --Redrose64 (talk) 21:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

References

• The Paranoid Style in Conservative Politics at U.S. News & World Report
• Dinesh D'Souza's 'America' Will Have Some Conservatives Yearning For Michael Moore's at Forbes
• Dinesh D'Souza Is Winning at National Journal'
• D'Souza Nation, Part I, Part II, Part III at National Review (articles also mention a print article "Take Two: D’Souza films again"; not sure if this differs from these online pieces)
• Review: 6 tricks Dinesh D'Souza uses to obscure his bad arguments in 'America' at Metro
• Bill to require controversial documentary in schools gets a House sponsor at Tampa Bay Times
• Lawmaker to Push Bill Requiring Dinesh D'Souza's 'America' Be Shown in Schools
• President Obama, Congress Invited to Free 'America' Movie Screening
• Lawmakers may require students to watch ‘controversial’ film to graduate

References to consider using. I am thinking about how we could cover different sub-topics under "Political commentary" in a way that folds debates into the narrative, such as what different commentators have to say about the treatment of Zinn. This may mean the same source would be repeated across sub-topics, depending on what they cover. Thanks, Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:31, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't oppose adding more political commentary, but for the record (in case anyone doesn't know), Nicole Hemmer is a professional conservative basher who thinks the notion of a liberal media was a myth invented by the right, and Tamny is a Libertarian with a perceived interest in relentlessly pushing a "a pox on both parties" theme, just so we're clear on where they're coming from politically. Both those columns are filled with straw man arguments and claims about the movie that simply aren't true, and they both dramatically understate what's going on at modern universities (Tamny in particular sounds totally out of touch), including how widespread Zinn's book is used as a textbook, not that D'Souza ever claimed Zinn was the only leftist historian, but rather one of the prominent ones meriting special focus. The movie isn't about praising Republicans, D'Souza explicitly rejects the "conspiracy theory" label in interviews, and nowhere does he say anything remotely approaching the "slavery wasn't that bad" characterization found in some liberal columns about the film (quite the opposite). If specifics from these pieces are added, as opposed to quotes describing the movie generally, then we'd probably need to add counterpoints on those topics from other sources, particularly if D'Souza is explicitly denying something (like the "conspiracy theory" angle). VictorD7 (talk) 21:03, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

The notion of a liberal media was in fact a myth invented by the right. --NE2 03:26, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

<INSERT>No, that's your opinion, and not a well founded one. VictorD7 (talk) 18:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Watch out, he's going to argue about this with you for the next six months. Gamaliel (talk) 15:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

At this point you're just trolling. VictorD7 (talk) 18:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea who Nicole Hemmer is, but US News and World Report is a reliable source by Wikpedia standards and I don't see why we should exclude it. Gamaliel (talk) 15:58, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

<INSERT>Since this was a reply to me, I'll point out that I didn't say we should exclude it or say anything about RS standards. VictorD7 (talk) 18:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I listed that and Forbes as major publications. We need to be careful about involving our personal perspectives. We need to focus on commentary as it relates to the film. Any further, what we can do is provide the necessary links so readers can read about certain political topics in a wider scope. For example, we do not link to A People's History of the United States, though it is mentioned. There are a lot of good links in the "Synopsis" section, but they may be worth repeating in the "Political commentary" section in the context of independent scrutiny (in the sense of being apart from the filmmakers) from various political stances. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:18, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I was clarifying those authors' political perspectives, which is relevant for us to do on a Talk Page. I believe you were the one who went so far as to suggest that we add labels like "conservative" and "liberal" to commentators in the article. I'm not sure going that far is necessary, though I wouldn't oppose it either. Explicitly stated or not, I do think editors should have a handle on commentators' ideologies.VictorD7 (talk) 18:32, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Please stick to the issue under discussion here. It's a BLP violation in itself for you to compare Breitbart to others whom you denigrate. Moreover as I stated above, such comparisons are entirely irrelevant to the current issue. SPECIFICO talk 23:29, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I think you posted in the wrong section. No one but you mentioned "Breitbart" here, and my comments were on point. It's also hard to tell if you're serious, but, for the record, it is certainly not a "BLP violation in itself" to compare sources with each other in talk page discussions on policy. VictorD7 (talk) 20:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

typo to be corrected

In the section on Saul Alinsky, the name is given once as "Alinksy" which is a clear typo to be corrected. Collect (talk) 21:47, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done – S. Rich (talk) 17:03, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Edit request

Please include the following sentence and reference in the "Release" section between the sentence ending "with a total gross of $14,444,502" and the sentence starting "For 2014":

''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' said the gross was "a very strong showing for a documentary film".<ref>{{cite journal | last=Bond | first=Paul | url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/gosnell-movie-adds-2016-director-757563 | title='Gosnell' Movie Adds '2016' Co-Director John Sullivan as Executive Producer | journal=[[The Hollywood Reporter]] | date=December 15, 2014 | accessdate=December 15, 2014 }}</ref>

Thanks, Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:24, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Done — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 06:46, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic critics

For all this heated discussion about the relative importance Rotten Tomatoes does or does not place on Christian Toto, note that Toto's review of America does not appear on Rotten Tomatoes. Here are the critics whose reviews of America actually do appear on RT and on Metacritic. If you are to argue that RT's metrics make Toto important, then you also have to justify why you want to include Toto instead of all these other critics, some of whom have similar or better metrics. Gamaliel (talk) 17:52, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Gabe Toro The Playlist

Joe McGovern Entertainment Weekly Top Critic

James Rocchi TheWrap Top Critic

Kam Williams Baret News

Renee Schonfeld Common Sense Media

Teddy Durgin Screen It!

Matt Prigge Metro

Louis Black Austin Chronicle

Christopher Campbell Nonfics

Dan Lybarger Arkansas Democrat-Gazette

Sean Means Salt Lake Tribune

Rafer Guzman Newsday Top Critic

David Ehrlich AV Club Top Critic

Alan Scherstuhl Village Voice Top Critic

Martin Tsai Los Angeles Times Top Critic

Bill Goodykoontz Arizona Republic Top Critic

Jonathan W. Hickman Daily Film Fix

Peter Sobczynski RogerEbert.com

Duane Dudek Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

Roger Moore McClatchy-Tribune News Service

Mark Jenkins Washington Post Top Critic

Rob Humanick Slant Magazine

Avi Offer NYC Movie Guru

Joe Leydon Variety Top Critic IconTop Critic

---

Variety Joe Leydon

Arizona Republic Bill Goodykoontz

Movieline Christopher Campbell

Philadelphia Inquirer Steven Rea

The New York Times Andy Webster

McClatchy-Tribune News Service Roger Moore

Washington Post Michael O'Sullivan

Time Richard Corliss

Boxoffice Magazine Phil Contrino

The Hollywood Reporter Stephen Farber

Boston Globe Mark Feeney

Salon.com Andrew O'Hehir

Village Voice Alan Scherstuhl

Entertainment Weekly Owen Gleiberman

Since you've already rejected Offer's review (listed above), adding in a later section that you "don't believe the inclusion of Offer's review in RT confers on it any particular notability or significance", you're really the wrong person to start this section. RT is only being cited regarding Toto as a small part of the mountain of evidence establishing his credentials as a noteworthy critic, and more importantly establishing that multiple media outlets see Breitbart is an RS for Toto's words. RT doesn't cite every noteworthy review for every film, so its absence for this particular movie proves nothing, but Toto's review for this film has been cited in other media (as posted above). Your Offer section started by saying, "I don't oppose including a positive review from a movie reviewer, but it should be an established one. Is Avi Offer an established critic?" You went on to conclude he isn't based on your opinion that his website looked amateurish. Well, Toto undeniably is an established critic who has worked for multiple major media outlets with national reach. Of course the RFC above isn't about weight, but simply whether Breitbart (or the Big Hollywood subsection of Breitbart) is an RS in this context, and on that score your comment on Offer is appropriate here: "Obviously he doesn't need to be a reliable source, since this is just an opinion we're talking about." - Gamaliel Obviously indeed. VictorD7 (talk) 19:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

As I've said before, I don't believe RT's metrics should override Wikipedia's. But if editors are going to discuss RT's metrics in depth, then they should also consider the fact that Toto's review was not included in RT while all these others were. Toto may be an established critic, and certainly appears to be more established than Offer. If Toto's review, or for that matter Offer's review, appeared in a reputable, mainstream publication I would have no objection to inclusion. Gamaliel (talk) 19:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The argument was that Toto's review was notable because his reviews were carried in RT. But RT no longer carries them, so the argument fails. TFD (talk) 19:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

False on multiple levels. RT does still "carry" Toto's reviews (certainly no proof otherwise has been presented), and still lists him as a "Tomatometer Approved" critic. Regardless, the argument is that Breitbart is an RS for its own attributed opinions, which your earlier quote on Offer I provided above shows you don't dispute. Also, your new RT based argument against Toto contradicts your earlier argument against RT's relevance when you were trying to justify excluding Offer, whose review of this film RT does cite. And Toto's review of this film is cited (not published, but cited and quoted) by the New Orleans Times Picayune, a reputable news source, as I've shown (not that such coverage is necessary).

The bottom line is that Toto is a well established professional film critic writing for a very popular, high traffic news/opinion site. Your anti-Offer section only said you wanted to include a quote from an "established" critic, and you outright said even reviews posted on the personal blogs of such critics would be acceptable: "You're right, we can cite personal blogs for personal opinions when appropriate, but I don't believe it is appropriate to cite a non-notable opinion." - Gamaliel Clearly Toto is at least as "notable" as the guys currently quoted in the section. VictorD7 (talk) 20:14, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

"Can" does not mean "should", and in this particular case, we should not, for reasons we've gone over at length. Even if I accept that Toto is more notable than every single person on the above list, that doesn't change the Breitbart issue. We can choose from any number of established critics writing for established outlets. You want me to change my opinion, give me a reason that we should pick that one in particular. Gamaliel (talk) 21:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The only pertinent "Breitbart issue" is whether we can consider the site an authentic source for Toto's words, which clearly we can. The review quote was allegedly deleted on sourcing grounds, not because of the quote's content or any weight issue. VictorD7 (talk) 23:48, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

In the overly narrow RFC, perhaps that is the only pertinent issue, but in editing the article we are obligated to consider all issues. Gamaliel (talk) 00:56, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That allegedly "overly narrow" topic was the only rationale given for deleting the quote, so it merited the above discussion. VictorD7 (talk) 20:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Although they list him as an approved critic, the fact is they have not used his columns since May 9, 2014, or 4 months ago, since shortly after he joined Breitbart. He remains on the list because his columns were used in the past for calculating RT scores. Similarly, Roger Ebert, who died April 4, 2013, is still on the list. The important issue is weight - we do not want to imply that critics say any merit in this film which was universally panned. I would hate to have readers pay to watch this film based on a misleading portrayal of critical reaction in this article, Even people who agreed with D'Souza would likely be disappointed. TFD (talk) 21:19, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

More factual falsehoods from you. Toto joined Breitbart years ago, and RT cites and links to about 70 of his Breitbart ("Big Hollywood") reviews stretching to at least mid 2012. It also cites some self published Toto reviews from his personal blog "What Would Toto Watch?". Sometimes several published the same day are counted, and at other times there are gaps of several months. You've provided absolutely no evidence to support your assumption that they've somehow dropped him. I proved above that RT doesn't count every review from its approved critics. RT has cited Breitbart at least hundreds of times for various critics though. You're also wrong about the reception. The largely negative pro critic reception is already well covered by this article, but the overall response by viewers has been overwhelmingly positive, as the historically rare A+ Cinemscore grade shows. America beat Michael Moore's most recent documentary to become the #6 highest grossing political documentary of all time. Every negative review I've seen has been written by a leftist, often spending more time attacking D'Souza personally or conservativism, Christianity, and/or the USA generally than commenting specifically on the movie, but that the pro critic response has been largely negative doesn't mean we shouldn't provide any positive quote, since there are pro critics who reviewed the film positively. Your concern here shouldn't be to dissuade people from watching the movie, and it's unfortunate that you just expressed such an agenda. The film MOS guidelines state that, "To maintain a neutral point of view, it is recommended to quote a reasonable balance of these reviews. This may not always be possible or desirable (e.g. films that have been almost universally acclaimed or panned), and best judgment should again be used." Past weight discussion here determined that adding a positive review, given the several negative ones already quoted, would be reasonable balance, and it's certainly possible to find positive reviews, as Toto demonstrates. Even Gamaliel said he doesn't oppose adding a positive review. While you're certainly free to challenge consensus by initiating a new weight discussion, that would seem superfluous until the simpler and completely different question of Breitbart's RS in this context is settled, a discussion above that you plunged headfirst into.VictorD7 (talk) 23:48, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

A positive review from a reputable source, which was already added to the article by SRich. Given the lack of positive reviews from mainstream outlets, I'm beginning to think that including a positive review at all might be an UNDUE violation, just as over-representing climate deniers in science articles gives a skewed picture of the 97% scientific consensus. Gamaliel (talk) 00:56, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That 97% consensus claim has been debunked. Your arguments against Breitbart are unconvincing. Your primary argument is that you don't like it because it is a conservative site. I'll weigh against your long history of defending liberal sites. Seriously, I cannot believe that liberals are so against this movie that this issue has become such a contentious one. Arzel (talk) 01:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to start calling you Scarecrow because you love the straw man so much. My primary argument is "unconvincing" because you have no idea what it is. I have to keep repeating it for you so much I should just create a template for it. For the umpteenth time, it has zero to do with its political orientation and everything to do with its lack of a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy as required by policy, the same reason I also oppose including reviews from Rush Limbaugh and Daily Kos. Gamaliel (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

And the personal attacks continue. Clearly the argument of a person that has no logical response. Considering your false analogy of the 97% climate myth and the double straw men of Rush and DK, I find it humorous to see you level that attack against me. You should really stop though, it is unbecoming of your position as an admin. Arzel (talk) 12:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Arzel, you are providing an opinion piece by James Taylor of the Heartland Institute. Here's a link to an article by Mark Hoofnagle that debunks the debunking. I can find sources that debunk the moon-landing. The problem is we cannot dismiss a meta-analysis in a peer-reviewed journal based on what a columnist, even one who minored in atmospheric studies, says. TFD (talk) 15:48, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Hogwash. That "positive" quote was warped into a mostly negative one, much to the frustration of Srich and other good faith editors here. Again, your own words: "Obviously he doesn't need to be a reliable source, since this is just an opinion we're talking about." -Gamaliel, (29 July) Guidelines state that "Sources that are regarded as reliable are professional film critics". You earlier supported adding a positive quote in principle. Perhaps you felt you could do so while finding case by case excuses for deleting all the truly positive ones proposed, and are now finding that more difficult. Regardless, the question of which sources are RS logically precedes the evaluation of RS weight, and the Toto review was deleted on pure sourcing grounds. Toto is undeniably a professional critic, making him RS here per film guidelines. The next question is whether Breitbart can be considered an authentic source for his reviews. If that answer is "yes" (which it clearly should be), then would come the issue of due weight, which has already been decided but could be revisited. Of course, since Toto is the most prominent pro critic to positively review the film, opposing his review would essentially mean that one opposes adding any positive reviews, which would require some position reversals and would violate the spirit of the "reasonable balance" that guidelines call for to construct a neutral article. Using a conservative reviewer is even more important than usual given the film's political nature, and the overt, one sided political bias of the liberal reviewers already quoted. But first thing's first, the Breitbart/Toto sourcing issue must be cleared up. 20:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you felt you could do so while finding case by case excuses for deleting all the truly positive ones proposed. This shit is exactly why dealing with you is so unpleasant, because any attempt to collaborate or engage with you is met with a punch in the dick. When I said I would support a positive quote, I thought it was obvious to any sentient being that it also meant from a reasonably significant, mainstream, notable source. Instead I'm on the receiving end of months-long harangues about someone's low traffic blog and a partisan shit sewer. Fuck this noise, go argue with your mirror. Gamaliel (talk) 20:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It's far more unpleasant to deal with a poster who refuses to address the glaring contradictions in his comments from section to section. A genuine collaboration would have seen this issue cordially resolved weeks ago. There's no policy prohibiting the properly attributed, subjective opinions of an alleged "partisan shit sewer" from being covered in a section dedicated to subjective opinions (as your own earlier quote agreed with), which is why I don't oppose The Huffington Post, rogerebert.com, THR, or The A.V. Club from being quoted on sourcing grounds. Of course, as one of the highest trafficked news sites in the world (per Alexa rankings), Breitbart is certainly a significant, notable source (and mainstream conservative), not that it needs to be for Toto's review to be quoted, since being a pro critic makes him RS per guidelines, as long as Breitbart can be considered RS for relaying his words. VictorD7 (talk) 20:56, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There is no contradiction, I've addressed the issue over and over and over again. Your response has been consistently WP:IDHT. Gamaliel (talk) 22:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

No, my response has been patient, reasoned argumentation against a blatantly invalid argument and has now progressed to the next step of an RFC for wider community input. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on your statements' inconsistency, and whether your position amounts to WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. VictorD7 (talk) 23:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I just laughed outloud at the idea that you actually believe you have engaged in "patient, reasoned arugmentation", and it's extra hilarious because you just posted it above TFD's response to you accusing him of lying. I'm beginning to think you are some sort of performance art project. Gamaliel (talk) 23:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

More that we disagree on, but readers can decide for themselves. I'll only add here that I did not accuse TFD of "lying". I pointed out that he made factually false claims, which I corrected. VictorD7 (talk) 00:18, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

VictorD7, In the British Parliament MPs are routinely expelled for accusing their colleagues of lying. It would be pleasant if you maintain the same degree of decorum, and keep in mind that verbal abuse is no substitute for facts and well-reasoned arguments.

Most people would not consider 2012 to be "years ago", although one might say "2 years ago." Your link shows that RT picked up Toto's Big Hollywood reviews from May 16, 2012 to May 9, 2014. Can you explain why they are no longer counting his reviews, other than that they have dropped him?

The film is not the 6th highest grossing documentary of all time, it stands about 16, just ahead of Moore's Capitalism. But so what?

It's easy to say that everyone who panned the movie was "left-wing" by defining the Left as anyone who did not like the movie. D'Souza's brand of "conservatism" reflects a fringe view that is ignored in reliable sources except by scholar who write about the fringes of the political views.

TFD (talk) 01:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I didn't accuse you of "lying", TFD, but of posting factual falsehoods, and I proceeded to prove my claim. There's more to clean up from your latest post. I said America is the 6th highest ranking political documentary (reread my post), and it is. I never defined "the left" as anyone who didn't like this film. I said I hadn't seen a negative review from anyone who wasn't a leftist. Read the reviews yourself. The negative ones all attack D'Souza's politics. And those politics are very mainstream conservative, not "fringe". Two years ago is "years" by definition, which is certainly more accurate than your misleading claim that RT hadn't used him since "shortly after he joined Breitbart". I already showed you above that RT doesn't count every review from its approved critics, and indeed can go several months between citations, so that doesn't prove anything. RT isn't the end all be all anyway, and we certainly aren't restricted to only quoting critics they do. That RT has cited Toto 665 times and Breitbart at least 287 times is only relevant in helping to establish that Toto is a professional critic and that other media outlets take Breitbart at face value as an authentic source for his (and others') reviews. You have yet to post a single argument on that score, which is the actual topic of the RFC you chose to participate in above.VictorD7 (talk) 20:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You keep saying, "I already showed you above that RT doesn't count every review from its approved critics," Well no you have not. You stated that they did not carry Andy Webster's review, but the reason they did not include it was that he did not write a review of the film - few critics did. And D'Souza's politics are not "mainstream conservative." They are never mentioned approvingly in mainstream academic writing and are most often mentioned in books and articles about fringe views. TFD (talk) 21:12, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't mentioned Andy Webster. Above I linked to several Toto reviews from before your cutoff date of May 9 that weren't quoted by RT either. That demonstrably didn't mean they had dropped him, since they proceeded to quote him on May 9. Your claims about D'Souza's politics are wrong and irrelevant. You keep dodging the actual issue of Breitbart's reliability in this context. VictorD7 (talk) 23:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe they phased his columns out. I don't know. But their methodology is to use every column of every reviewer they use. Imagine a film got a 100% "fresh" because RT decided only to inlcude positive reviews. Also, it makes no sense to rail against the liberal media and the left-wing academic world, then claim that people like D'Souza are in the mainstream. If mainstream is a Marxist-Alinsky-anticolonialist conspiracy that D'Souza opposes, he is obviously not part of it. TFD (talk) 19:26, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Or maybe they didn't; at least now you admit you don't know. You've posted nothing supporting your claim about their methodology, which, btw, is certainly not scientific. D'Souza's views are firmly in the American mainstream (which isn't defined by the liberal media), and I don't know of any specific factual claims his film makes that have been disputed. That's all irrelevant though. You're still dodging the actual issue of Breitbart's reliability as a source for Toto's review.VictorD7 (talk) 22:32, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Since you are the one who brought up RT as evidence of Toto's notability, you need to provide the methology they use, not me. If you do not know it, then you cannot use them as evidence of Toto's importance.

D'Souza's views are well outside the mainstream. You refer to the "liberal media" - that is the mainstream. Notice on page 145 of Obama's rage, D'Souza distinguishes between the "mainstream media" and the "conservative media." His example of the latter is Sean Hannity.[1] That show does even meet rs standards, except for the opinions expressed on it.

Asking whether Breitbart is rs for Toto's column is begging the question. As I worte above, "Any editor could write a review and post it on facebook and it would be a reliable source for what they said. The real issue is whether is notability."

TFD (talk) 02:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

You keep ignoring what's been posted, causing people to repeat themselves. Again, RT was cited as one piece of a mountain of evidence proving that Toto is a professional film critic. While your various claims about RT's methodology are completely unsupported and in some cases have been proved false, in the above section Dr Fleischman did copy paste RT's methodology and review process regarding critic approval (what's relevant here). Other evidence, like Toto working as a critic for the Washington Times for years, being cited by other media sources, and belonging to major professional critic organizations was also cited. There should be no doubt whatsoever among good faith editors that Toto is an established, professional critic. That alone makes him RS per film guidelines as I quoted a few paragraphs above. As to his "notability", by which here you presumably mean his prominence, being the feature film critic for widely read publications like the Washington Times and Breitbart (both publications themselves are extremely notable) make him at least as notable as the critics already quoted in the section, and probably more so. Your comments on D'Souza are both incorrect and irrelevant. The "media" doesn't determine which political views are mainstream. If they did, a Republican would never win a national election. Getting back on topic, does your next to last sentence mean that you do accept Breitbart as an RS for Toto's words? VictorD7 (talk) 17:15, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

It is not being Republican or Democrat that makes one mainstream, it is one's opinions. For example, birtherism, 9/11 truth, death panels, young earth creationism, and climate change denial are all views popular with some Republicans but that does not elevate them to mainstream views. You still have not explained the irony of someone claiming that mainstream views are lies, yet your claiming that is a mainstream view. It is a logical impossibility: TFD (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

You're still dodging the central issue here. Do you accept that Breitbart is RS for Toto's review? As for your post, leaving aside the fact that some things (like 9/11 conspiracy theories) are far more popular with Democrats, you haven't pointed to anything D'Souza states in the film (or even happens to believe) that's supposedly "fringe", or explained the relevance to this conversation even if you could. You're also conflating certain mainstream views, like anthropogenic climate change skepticism, espoused by many scientists, with the truly fringe. Your final two sentences continue to mistakenly conflate the "mainstream" (or "old", or "liberal") media with political views that are societally mainstream, so your "logical" claim is based on a false premise. D'Souza criticizes the "mainstream" political bias of certain niches, and his views are certainly mainstream on the political spectrum. VictorD7 (talk) 18:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

If you are going to argue that "anthropogenic climate change skepticism, espoused by many scientists" is a mainstream view, then we are not going to get anywhere. Your view of what is mainstream differs from what policy says and how it is interpreted. Instead of arguing across numerous articles that fringe views are mainstream, you should take your arguments to discussions of policies. (The 9/11 truth movement is mostly extreme right Republicans.) TFD (talk) 19:48, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The 9/11 "truth" movement was mostly liberal Democrats (with a few libertarians), and who defines the "mainstream" varies from topic to topic. For example, for general political views the mainstream is not defined by the media's own political preferences. None of that is relevant to this discussion though. Your posting here has been almost entirely obfuscatory and diversionary. If you continue to refuse to address the topic actually under discussion then your comments will merit no further response.VictorD7 (talk) 22:28, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps this will finally be the blissful silence we have all been looking forward to. Gamaliel (talk) 23:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

CinemaScore

As MOS:FILM now outlines, audience response content is not required to be under critical response content. In addition, box office gross indicates how an audience responds to the film, and CinemaScore is another such indicator. It is commonplace to show the demographic breakdown with the CinemaScore grade. It shows what kind of audience the film attracts, like a Transformers film would attract young men. It is not "frivolous". Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:38, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

To show how relevant demographic information is, Entertainment Weekly reports here about who went to see Ouija last weekend. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

VictorD7, a number of film articles include demographic breakdown as seen here. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 18:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

No one ever said it's "required", but I agree with Flyer22 on the MOS page that CinemaScore grades fit better under the Critical reception section because they're opinions about the movie rather than box office stats about sales or theater count, and there's no good reason to move it. The Guidelines' Critical response section already makes it clear that reception content isn't limited to pro film critics, stating..."Sources that are regarded as reliable are professional film critics, though notable persons or experts connected to the topics covered by the film may also be cited." The new compromise Audience Response section certainly doesn't mandate that CinemaScore polls appear in the box office section, as it states that "Polls of the public carried out by a reliable source in an accredited manner, such as CinemaScore, may be used and placed in the appropriate release or reception-based section, depending on the available context." Either is acceptable, and my opinion is that readers will tend to look at the BO/Release section for sales stats, skipping over that and looking at the Critical response section when searching for opinions, so a major opinion segment shouldn't be buried in the middle of a bunch of box office stats. It's also been the status quo on this article for months, and there's no consensus to change that.

Regarding the demographic breakdown, your search yielded 28 results (for perspective searching for "cinemascore" alone yields 239), and only some of those actually have demographic breakdowns. None are as detailed as what you posted, typically only featuring male/female ratios and sometimes limited age info (like percentage "over 25"). None mentioned race, except for Season of the Witch, which only mentioned it due to its unusually high "non-white" viewer percentage. None were political documentaries. I noticed no demographic breakdowns in any of the Michael Moore movies I scanned. When there is a demographic breakdown (typically male/female), it often appears on the BO/Release section, with the CinemaScore grade appearing separately in the Critical reception section. Usually there's no demographic breakdown at all and CinemaScore grades are presented as a single sentence, like in the Avengers or Godzilla Critical reception sections. Posting a demographic breakdown here, in a political documentary film article, especially with the racial/"over 55"/"religious" components, wittingly or not comes off as an attempt to marginalize the movie's audience and threatens to open a Pandora's Box right when the article was finally approaching a stable consensus after months of turmoil. The pictures of CinemaScore ballots I've seen don't even ask about race, so it's not even certain the demographics mentioned in that article are CinemaScore stats. Regardless, this article is better off without such skewed, special demographic treatment. VictorD7 (talk) 19:26, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

In my experience, sometimes the demographic breakdown is provided with the CinemaScore, and sometimes it is not. I saw a search result somewhere that said sometimes the grade comes out first, then other details follow, so maybe some periodicals just report on the grade. I would support any film article, political documentary or otherwise, having a demographic breakdown. I'm not sure why you think the breakdown is marginalizing in effect. We are not marginalizing young men by saying they are the chief demographic to see the latest Transformers film, or young women for The Fault in Our Stars. Researching CinemaScore further, this says it has 33 demographic categories, so perhaps depending on the film, only the most relevant ones (like for Season of the Witch) are reported. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

And yet no other documentary article I've seen has a demographic breakdown. Surely you can understand why singling out a conservative political documentary article that's been the subject of extremely contentious editing for months over neutrality issues, and is finally quieting down, to become the first to have a demographic breakdown, much less one emphasizing stereotypes about age, race, and religion, is less than ideal. It would smack of biased, unfair treatment. I'm sure most political doc. audiences skew older and white, including Moore movies (maybe less religious). In fact most films period likely skew white, which is why the only racial mention I noticed in your search results was because a high non-white percentage was deemed noteworthy. A political documentary appealing to an older, whiter audience isn't noteworthy. If you're serious about adding such material to film articles though, there must be better places to start. VictorD7 (talk) 19:56, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I expanded the passage concerning aggregate scores to show a more detailed breakdown. I was doing the same for audiences as detailed by a reliable source. Blockbuster films tend to have detailed articles which include such breakdowns (you should see WikiProject Film's comic book films task force), so I'm not surprised that articles about non-blockbuster films, getting less attention, lack this detail. This does not mean breakdowns are not out there. Son of God has a breakdown here, and Heaven is for Real has a breakdown here. I'll restore the gender/age passage since that is not controversial. I posted a notice at WT:FILM about this discussion. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Now, with restoring the uncontroversial gender/age sentence, the CinemaScore passage is even less qualified to be under a section about how critics responded to the film. Let's please merge that back into the above section as the more pertinent location. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:25, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The "over 55" segment is uncalled for (perhaps as evidenced by the use of "while"), and something I don't remember seeing in any other article, much less a political documentary article. That aside, even if we agreed to make this the first political documentary to have a demographic breakdown for some reason, there's no reason we couldn't put it in the Release section while leaving the opinion segment in the opinion section where it properly belongs, as a high percentage of the relatively few articles with demographic breakdowns do. Even those that do keep the demographic breakdown with the CinemaScore grade often place them both in the Critical reception section. VictorD7 (talk) 21:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

If we had pulled demographics from CinemaScore, yes, doing so would be inappropriate. but our source did the noticing and found it worth noting. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:03, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

So you agree we should include the CinemaScore age/gender breakdown passage? Nothing wrong with it, despite Victor's claim that it should not be part of an article about a political documentary? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 22:13, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

In general Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Film#Critical_response we dont care what the audience thinks about a film anyway, so my preference would be to remove all the CinemaScore reference from the page. However, if we are going to include information about it being liked, we should identify who is liking it when the source has noted it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:32, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Just because something appears in an article outside of Wikipedia doesn't mean we have to put it in this article. Do you really want to start blowing the page back up again? VictorD7 (talk) 22:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

When you say blowing the page back up, do you mean adding content or continuing with discussions? I do not see the problem with either. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 22:19, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I mean a bunch of content from various perspectives being added, deleted, restored, deleted, and restored again, replications of the pages of arguments that have already taken place here and were just winding down, restoration of the recently deleted NPOV tags, and general chaos and disruption. This article is best treated as a basic, vanilla, neutral encyclopedia piece, rather than a propaganda forum for partisan cheap shots or skewed and unusual subject treatment like slapping the "old and white" label on the audience when no other political documentary or film of any kind gets that treatment as far as I can tell. If you want to expand things, there are sources and segments we can use to provide context by discussing how historically rare an A+ CinemaScore grade is, commenting on the obvious political dynamic at play in the reception (like most film critics being left wing), and producing tit for tat talking points on once present tangents that have now been deleted in entirety, among other things. Every Wikipedia article only contains a tiny fraction of the material sources have written about it. VictorD7 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:34, November 4, 2014‎

It is completely possible to have a more full-fledged article about this film. It is basic and vanilla, but it is currently not neutral because there is nothing to be neutral about. Being neutral means explaining the sides, fairly and without bias. This involves structuring and attributing. We can improve the article further. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 04:35, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

If there is no policy forbidding it and it comes from a reliable source, it should be included. It is a political film and understanding demographics is an important part of understanding politics. It would be useful and objective information for this article. I would hardly consider its inclusion to be superfluous or to be "blowing up the article". -Xcuref1endx (talk) 23:36, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Quoting TheWrap's passage about the CinemaScore grade and the demographics behind it as follows: "Audiences loved the film, giving it a rare 'A+' CinemaScore, and 92 percent gave it a 'definite recommend” in exit polls. Conservative icons like radio host Rush Limbaugh promoted the film prior to its opening, and 'America' connected with its core. The audience was split nearly evenly in terms of gender but skewed older, with 69 percent over the age of 55. They were mainly Caucasian (93 percent) and 82 percent of those polled described themselves as 'very or somewhat religious.'" I think it is relevant to mention the grade and its rarity, the "definite recommend", and the demographic breakdown. The last part makes better sense to include now that the "Marketing" section details a religious focus. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:27, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I still see no reason for this to become the first political documentary to have its audience demographically broken down in a Wikipedia article, including by race and "over 55". VictorD7 (talk) 20:12, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Were it just a run of the mill cinemascore-rated film, I would agree, but its rare A+ rating justifies the extra scrutiny. Gamaliel (talk) 15:56, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Now it's "scrutiny"? Interesting word choice. Of course that doesn't logically follow. VictorD7 (talk) 18:39, 12 November 2014 (UTC)