Talk:America (disambiguation)/Archive 7

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Inclusion of the Americas in the lede

I believe that the Americas are sufficiently primary to be included in the lede of this article; while it is unusual to have two articles there, I believe it is warranted in this case. I boldly added this, before being reverted, so instead I am opening this discussion.

This matches most major dictionaries, where they include both the continents and the country in various orders, such as Merriam-Webster and Cambridge Dictionary. Given this prominence in English dictionaries, it would seem due to give such prominence here, particularly as for those who have English as a second language "America" refers to the continent. BilledMammal (talk) 07:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for opening the discussion. The page follows the format recommended by MOS:DABFIRST. However, per MOS:DABCOMMON, "In cases where a small number of main topics are significantly more likely to be the reader's target, several of the most common meanings may be placed at the top, with other meanings below. See Mojave or Mercury for examples of this. " America the continent certainly qualifies. In fact, it was listed second up until a reorganization of the DAB page a couple of years ago, and I'm fine with moving it back there. BilCat (talk) 08:14, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

@BilledMammal I also came here to post about the lede being too U.S. centric. I think a worldwide view trumps MOS guidelines in this case. I won't make any edits though until there is more consensus. Pariah24 (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

I also agree that the Americas are sufficiently primary topic to be listed at the beginning, and moved to just under the US. I expect an awful lot of users, esp. non-native English speaking wikipedia users, are going to be looking for this article and shouldn't have to scroll down to search for it. Meets the proper purpose of a DAB article to be useful. This looks like an emerging consensus, so I went ahead and changed it. CAVincent (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Your edit was absolutely unacceptable. We must follow the format specified by MOS:DABPRIMARY. The long-standing, well-attested community consensus is that the United States is the primary topic. RGloucester — ☎ 04:26, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Hey there, RGloucester. I don't think there is any question that the United States is the primary topic - I'm certainly not disputing that consensus. However, MOS:DABPRIMARY is a recommendation, not a mandate. The search term "America" already redirects to its primary topic, the United States, so most people arriving at this DAB page are probably not looking for it. I would suggest that of the many other possible articles that users are searching for, the Americas is overwhelmingly the most common intended target of users who searched for "America", got the United States, and then clicked on the link to this DAB page. MOS:DABCOMMON states, "1) The primary topic, if there is one, should be placed at the top. 2) In cases where a small number of main topics are significantly more likely to be the reader's target, several of the most common meanings may be placed at the top, with other meanings below." I'm pretty sure my edit was in conformity with this guidance, which left the primary topic as the top link and then gave the second most common target - as opposed to making users search for it part way down the page. I'll give a day or two for you to explain if/why you disagree, but absent any better argument than the above for the status quo, I expect to reinstate my edit. CAVincent (talk) 05:25, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

CAVincent's format isn't correct, as the United States is the primary topic, and should be listed in the Lead section. However, MOS:DABPRIMARY doesn't explicitly preclude other topics that are significantly more likely to be the reader's target from also being placed near the top. Thus Americas can be placed under the Lead section before all the headings, or first under the Places heading, if there's a consensus to do so. BilCat (talk) 05:58, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

There is no good reason to deviate from the MoS guidance. 'Americas' can be placed first in the list at the 'Places' heading, as BilCat says. This would be allowed by the guidance under MOS:DABFIRST. What cannot be allowed, however, is CAVincent's edit, which was a clear attempt at implying that the United States is not the primary topic, without going through the formal process to make such a determination. United States is the primary topic, an extensive community discussion determined this. MOS:DABPRIMARY must be followed until the community makes a determination that the United States is not the primary topic. The lead section should only contain the primary topic. MOS:DABCOMMON is guidance for DAB pages without a primary topic, as you will see from the exmaples. I have made a WP:BOLD edit to resolve this situation, and this should be satisfactory. RGloucester — ☎ 13:23, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. That should be satisfactory to address most of the concerns expressed here. BilCat (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Hey, @RGloucester. Firstly, thank you for your solution to the issue that I was trying, perhaps clumsily, to address. Secondly, I thought that I was being abundantly clear above that I agreed that the primary topic of America is the United States. As a native English speaker, and an American to boot, this comes naturally to me. I don't think having a primary topic precludes a very common secondary topic from appearing in the lede of a DAB page, but you clearly disagree and perhaps there is consensus on this point which I am unaware of. (As I noted above, I interpret the MOS as guidance but not a mandate.) However, you may want to revisit WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL before accusing someone of attempting to imply a counter-consensus position that they are explicitly disavowing. At any rate, thanks again for your elegant resolution of the issue. Cheers. CAVincent (talk) 04:05, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

America for US is synecdoche

@BilCat: Regarding your recent revert: yes, really. I don't why you reverted it without any proper explanation. This is cited and referenced throughout Wikipedia, let alone known via various other sources. If it was about the wording, do you have a suggestion for how to improve it? Getsnoopy (talk) 08:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Because it's simply the short form of United States of America, as it says there now, and this is a DAB page, not an article. In addition, "synecdoche" shouldn't be linked, per WP:DABPRIMARYTOPIC. BilCat (talk) 09:40, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I also oppose this addition. RGloucester — ☎ 13:54, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I am a lecturer and a geographer. Term America means "New Word" and is referred to both continents: North and South America and countries from Argentina to Mexico, the US, and Canada. The use of America as short-term for The US is just for recreational and local use within the USA... same as the use of World Championship in Baseball but was actually meant within the USA, referring that the US is "a World". Example following the use of the term America exclusively for the US: European Union... so citizens of countries of the European Union are Europeans, and since Brexit, the citizens of the UK are not? But first, we need to agree on what kind of Wikipedia is it: "global one" or meant for "the USA" use? ...and needs renaming to The US English Wikipedia or starting a fresh start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lander~slwiki (talk • contribs) 09:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@BilCat: Saying it's the "short form" of United States of America gives the sense that the full name has been abbreviated, which is incorrect. I propose rephrasing it to "America commonly refers to the United States of America". Getsnoopy (talk) 16:42, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

It is an abbreviated form of the full name, as is quite obvious. That doesn't preclude it also being a synecdoche, but that doesn't need to be mentioned on a DAB page. BilCat (talk) 17:42, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

The full name is indeed abbreviated from 'United States of America' to 'America'. It is strange that you seek to contest what is plain fact, and therefore, I wonder if you perhaps are veering into WP:RGW territory. If so, I recommend that you kindly cease such activism. RGloucester — ☎ 20:31, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@RGloucester: The full name is indeed abbreviated from 'United States of America' to 'America'. It is strange that you seek to contest what is plain fact It isn't. The fact that you think it is and the fact that it is insinuated on the article is exactly the problem this discussion highlights. I'm not trying to RGW; it's documented in many parts of Wikipedia itself that it's synecdoche. It's a question about factual accuracy and consistency, which is squarely within the domain of any encyclopaedia, let alone WP.

@BilCat: but that doesn't need to be mentioned on a DAB page Hence, my proposal to make the text neutral. I don't see what problem one could have with the text I suggested. Getsnoopy (talk) 23:58, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

The present text is neutral. Find a reliable source, perhaps open the OED, if you're interested, and see if it supports the statements you keep making. The sources you inserted into the synecdoche article were not reliable, fall under WP:SPS, and I've hence removed them from that article. In any case, regardless of whether the use of America to refer to the United States of America is synecdoche or not (and its potential serving as synedoche in some cases does not preclude its serving as a short form name in other cases), such specialist terminology is un-necessary here, as Mr BilCat has said. That 'America' is a short form name of the United States of America is an uncontestable fact, which need not be further discussed. Further attempts at 'editing to make a point' will likely result in nothing other than misfortune on your part. RGloucester — ☎ 03:17, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

The present text implies that it is an abbreviation, which is contested. The OED says it is "used as a name for the United States", not that it is a direct abbreviation. The sources on the naming article show that it is synecdoche, and those are all reliable sources. My proposal to change it to read "America commonly refers to the United States of America" avoids this issue entirely; there is no "specialist terminology" in that sentence.

If you're implying WP:POINT in relation to me adding a source to the synecdoche article, you'll notice that the text precedes me adding the source for it by over 9 years. So no, WP:POINT is entirely irrelevant. Getsnoopy (talk) 22:33, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@BilCat: You objected to the original change regarding the word and link to "synecdoche", which is why I changed the phrase to a non-objectionable one. I don't know why you're reverting my newer change, especially given that it's neutral and applies in all cases. Getsnoopy (talk) 18:27, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Because there is nothing wrong with the current wording, in my view, and the view of the others who have commented here, which is neutral to us. Since you're the one objecting to it, the onus on getting a consensus is yours. You don't have a consensus to change the current wording, much less a consensus on the new wording. Please consider dropping the WP:STICK. BilCat (talk) 19:00, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with BilCat, these edits are trying to correct a perceived problem that, in my opinion, doesn't exist. The current wording is neutral, accurate, concise, and easily understood. The changes being attempted are not improvements. - Aoidh (talk) 19:14, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

The word "synecdoche" is obscure, if we use it in the lede sentence there should be a wiki-link. No strong preference on whether the word is used or not; there's probably a better phrasing but I don't immediately see one to suggest. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:30, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@力: The proposed sentence is not one that includes "synecdoche" (anymore, at least), but merely "America commonly refers to the United States of America". Despite it's non-objectionable quality, the others here seem to oppose it on principle. Getsnoopy (talk) 05:38, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

We oppose it because, as Mr BilCat said, there is nothing 'objectionable' about the present wording. Furthermore, what you have proposed is actually objectionable, as it is basically a form of WP:WEASEL. 'America commonly refers to the United States' seems to imply that the word 'America' when used to refer to the United States is basically a vulgarism, or somehow 'informal' or 'commonly used, but incorrect', and this is not actually the case. Such a phrasing gives WP:UNDUE weight to an alternative potential meaning (with only WP:FRINGE usage in contemporary English) in order to give it primacy, and this cannot be tolerated. RGloucester — ☎ 12:45, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

@RGloucester: and this cannot be tolerated Except apparently in the lead sentence in the article on the primary topic of the disambiguation page (United States), where it reads "The United States of America (U.S.A. or USA), commonly known as the United States (U.S. or US) or America".

Nevertheless, apparently it seems to imply that the word 'America' when used to refer to the United States is basically a vulgarism, or somehow 'informal': yes, because it is informal. The name of the country is not "America" in any formal context; the US government's own GPO Style Manual, the EU's Interinstitutional Style Guide, the UN's list of member states' official names (which highlights official short names in boldface), and practically every other formal source you can find list the country as "the United States", not "America". It is, for all intents and purposes, a colloquialism. Far from FRINGE, let alone UNDUE and not even close to being WEASEL. (It's the opposite, in fact, seeing as it's transitive: if it is a "short form" that is common enough to warrant being the primary topic on the disambiguation page, then necessarily, it has to be the case that "America" commonly refers to the United States.) Getsnoopy (talk) 21:04, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Find a dictionary, a reliable one like the OED, that lists 'America' as 'informal' (dictionaries list words as such). Then, perhaps you might have something worth contributing. RGloucester — ☎ 21:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Dictionaries only list slang or non-standard uses with labels such as "informal". They do not generally provide usage information, unless it's a prescriptive dictionary, of course; that's what style guides are for. Pretending that if a dictionary doesn't say something, it's fair game is naive. Getsnoopy (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Style guides do not determine what is informal or not. A style guide may have a preference, but that preference does not necessarily indicate anything empirical about the term being preferred. Informal usages are indeed 'slang' and 'non-standard' usages, and these are listed in dictionaries as such. I presume with that statement that you are admitting that 'America' is not an 'informal' usage. In any case, as you seem to like style guides, you might consult that of The Economist, which prefers 'America' over 'United States' in all cases. Are you suggesting that The Economist is written in an 'informal' or colloquial manner? A laughable thought, as I'm sure you'll agree. RGloucester — ☎ 01:38, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Style guides do not determine what is informal or not. Of course they do. If you look up the word back in any dictionary, it won't label the usage where it is used synonymously with the word ago as "informal". Yet, it is considered as such by practically every style/writing guide out there. Similarly with contractions. Not everything that is not-formal is automatically slang; there is a grey area in between where it is not proper formal usage, nor is it "street language" / vulgar. If the style guide of the very government whose name is in question itself prefers "United States" over "America", that should give pause. And while the Economist is not written in slang, its use of "America" specifically is informal use. So no, it's not a laughable thought. Getsnoopy (talk) 06:04, 19 May 2021 (UTC)