Talk:American open-wheel car racing

Article title

If I am reading this right, there isn't an actual series called American Championship Car Racing. If that is the case, shouldn't the article title be something like History of open wheel racing in the U.S.? Recury 14:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Possibly to be more accurate, shouldn't it be History of U.S. open wheel racing series? (All on the page, even the Vanderbilt cup could qualify, whereas F1 and the likes wouldn't.)-slowpokeiv 17:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

There isn't a series with the name, but it kind of like a "class" of racing.--RA64 21:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No one has been able to provide any sources showing that "Championship Car" or anything similar is a class of racing as described in this article. Even if it is, it certainly isn't a very common term for it, so IMO it should be moved to one of the above suggestions. Recury 14:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm probably getting too involved/taking this discussion personally, so I am going to step out of it, but want to make a few final comments. The article as written does not fully represent open wheel racing in the U.S. It is really just related to what is now the IRL and the CCWS. It does not include anything about Indy Lights, Formula/Toyota Atlantic, sprint car, midget car, etc. Furthermore, I don't think that the article should be expanded for the purpose of adding that information. That being said, the name of the article is troubling, because of the Indycar and Champ Car spilt. I will go with the consensus, but ask that the title somehow reflect that the article is about those 2 series, not about open-wheel in general. I do have AWB, so I can make any necessary article changes once a decision is made. --Brian G 16:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Championship car is a class of racing. i believe it comes for the USACs series, from the 50s to 70s called the national championship trail. This term has evolved into the best term to refer to the top level of American open wheel auto racing. The reason everything is so ambiguous is due to the current Champcar/IRL split. In the 80s and 90s, the popular term for the top level of american open wheel racing was evolving to "Indy Car" however, IMS trademark this term, and it can no longer refer to the generic class of racing. Other less common genaric terms for this class of racing include "indy style" and I think in the past "big car" and "gold crown." Champcars trademarked (i think) name comes from championship car. The class does not include lower open wheel formulas such as atlantics, sprint cars, etc.--RA64 03:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

can anyone provide an overview of what articles there are currently on this topic (i.e. those that would be daughter articles of this one). Considering those might give us a better feel for what this overarching article should be. 4u1e

articles on this topic would be the articles on the sanctioning bodies that have held championship car races, namely AAA, USAC, IRL, CART and Champcar.--RA64 03:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I propose renaming the current Champ car article Champ Car World Series and creating a seperate article for CART. Champ car and Indy car would redirect to this article. This creates a distinction between each seperate series and the genaric class. This article title could remain the same or perhaps be shortened to Championship Car Racing.--RA64 03:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your proposals for both Champ Car World Series and CART. A racing league should be called by its official name and if CART is a seperate entity, it should have a seperate article. About Indy Car though, so what if its trademarked? That doesn't affect us any. They can't sue us for calling what has been called many times in many publications "Indy car" just because they trademarked it. I would propose renaming this article Indycar or Indy car (but not IndyCar or Indy Car, this is about the generic phrase used to describe these kinds of cars, so it is not a proper noun) and adding other information besides just the history here. Recury 14:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

perhaps Indycar is allowed, but it has dropped out of use as a genaric term in the past 10 years. It would be too confusing with one specific series called IRL IndyCar. --RA64 05:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

We can make the distinction in the article if we have to, it's no big deal. Decline in usage or not, do you really hear people calling this stuff "Championship car racing" more than "Indy car racing?" I've never heard the first and have heard the second probably dozens of times. Recury 06:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The highest class of formula, or open-wheel, racing in the United States has been referred to as the Championship-class, the American equivalent of the FIA's Formula (Class) One, since the 1920s by the AAA. Paul Page, long-time motorsports commentator, Voice of the 500, and ABC telecast anchor in racing, referred to them in the broadcast of the 1990 Indianapolis 500 as "The Championship cars, the IndyCars..." The fact of the matter is that any claim by either political body to being the 'true' class one of American motorsports is hampered by the fact that the machines on either side have always been "up to par" on technical specifications of such things as suspension, wheel-base and toe-in, if not equal in the nature of the kind of engines, turbocharged or normally-aspirated, that they run. Political infighting and name-calling between the two factions aside, "Championship racing" is a technical term...it is the pinnicle of car design for pure racing purposes in the United States, and has had co-national champions from 1996 to the present. --Chr.K. 11:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

AfD

I closed the AfD for this article as keep, with no consensus on the move. The proposed title was "History of Open Wheel Racing in the U.S.". I've got no opinion on it, but I bring it up as the AfD turned into a "what title should it have" discussion. --james^(talk) 10:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Mario Andretti as former F1 champion winning CART titles

Fittipaldi and Mansell, sure...but Andretti was a multiple-USAC (American) series champion first. He then, in fact, went over to F1, won the championship in 1978, then won further CART (American) titles after that. As such, it's a little disingenuous to call him a former F1 champion who won afterwards, as Andretti was competitive throughout his entire career, which spanned all the way from 1965 to 1994. --Chr.K. (talk) 20:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

1920 champion

Was the 1920 champion officially changed from Chevrolet to Milton in 1951, as it states in the "Retrospectively awarded champions" section? If so, then I think both drivers should be listed in the "National Champions" table, in the same way that both Robertson and Dingley are listed for 1909 (I understand that the two situations are not identical). Or is the statement in the "Retrospectively awarded champions" section incorrect? DH85868993 (talk) 07:02, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing truly official about the earliest AAA results. the champions from 1909, 1920, 1918, 1919 were created in 1927 by a member of the AAA board for comparative reasons. Chevrolet was announced as the winner for 7 years until 1927 when it was changed. Milton did show up as champion in printed media during 27, 28. It is assumed Gaston's remaining brothers got the record changed back but never the less, Chevrolet is credited with the championship from 1929 until 1952. in 1951 The old sheets were found again, added to the "official" history again, and champions from 1902 - 1908 were created to celebrate 50 years of AAA. remember 1905 actually had a champion and these guys didnt know it and awarded it to someone else. the 1920 season is the same way. Although AAA did not award national champions during 1906 through 1915, the American automobile journal Motor Age published who they regarded the most outstanding American driver during the years of 1909-1915. These picks have become the de facto national champions of the day. after 1955 AAA burned all of their historical racing data and crib sheets. here is an excellent article on the whole mess http://forix.autosport.com/8w/rvm-vol7-no6.html scroll to the section Case History: John Glenn Printz and the Struggle for the Past about a third of the way down. its a good read.Ehall317 (talk) 15:06, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 02:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I've finally finished reading the RVM article (it's pretty long!) and I believe I now understand the situation fully. The RVM article states that the AAA Contest Board adopted Catlin's proposal to change the 1920 champion from Chevrolet to Milton. Accordingly, I think the table in this article should list both names, with an explanatory footnote (which I'm happy to write). BTW, the "Retrospectively awarded champions" section (now) says that the "1909–1915 and 1917-1919 races ... are included in statistics by most historians"; are the 1902-1908 races also "included in statistics by most historians", or not? DH85868993 (talk) 07:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I would like to go a step further and take the retrospective champions out of the table altogether and create a separate table for them. I've created a draft of the sections here. As far as the "included by most historians" sentence, I would guess that most historians don't include them, but journalists do, simply because they're copying what they used last year. At any rate, there's no good way to verify the statement, so it should probably be removed. --Spyder_Monkey (Talk) 22:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Your table looks great, I think this would finally set the record straight about these early years. The more I think about it I feel it is more an more important for wiki to have a correct table, as one does not exist as of yet. The IICS is compiling all historical results to be combined into one database. with so much misinformation out there, plus the fact that wiki pages are often on the first page of returns for an indycar search on google, this is really great work. I say over haul that portion of the article, I think it looks fantastic. as an aside, i think the years for the USAC gold crown from 95 and up should link to the respective 500 article, for all intents and purposes, that article is the season review for the gold crown championship that year.Ehall317 (talk) 21:31, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Yep, Spyder Monkey's tables looks good to me to. Make it so! DH85868993 (talk) 22:21, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

It is so. But now I'd like to discuss...

Gold Crown Championships

Should the Gold Crown Championships count as legitimate championships? I'm not really sure where history stands on the issue. As I see it, they can be grouped as:

• 1980: Intended to be a joint CART/USAC championship, but USAC pulled out of the arrangement (at the behest of IMS) after 5 races. I don't know that USAC actually awarded a championship that year. Either way, it seems silly to give Rutherford a championship for leading the points after 5 events.

• 1981-1984: Mostly Indy 500s and Silver Crown dirt races that counted for the Gold Crown championship.

• 1985-1995: Only the Indy 500. USAC apparently held a separate banquet in the fall, which drivers had to attend if they wanted to get their prize money, but it seems like 1 race isn't really a championship.

Thoughts? --Spyder_Monkey (Talk) 05:23, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

In the lifetime champions tally list, all gold crown winners recieved a championship towards their lifetime total. This is also mirrored in the multiple championship table at the bottom of the ACCR article. I would say that because all of these were sancionted as championship seasons, they should be included. Some have made the same arguemnt about early IRL seasons, that they are not full national champions, if we make a desicion about the validity of gold crown champions we are headed down a slippery slope. I believe that AJ Foyt sided with IMS in 79 and ran the gold drown schedule until its demise. Even NASCAR speedway is included in lifetime totals for the two years it ran. Maybe a new page about the gold crown series, explaining its place in AOWR history with posibly a small blurb about it in the 500 reviews for years where that was the only race on the trail.Ehall317 (talk) 11:24, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Confusing dates in the lead paragraph

Currently, the lead paragraph begins: "Since 1916 there has been a recognized United States national automobile racing National Championship for drivers of professional-level, single-seat open wheel race cars. The championship has been under the auspices of several different sanctioning bodies since 1909. Since 1911, the Indianapolis 500-mile race has been regarded as the marquee event of the National Championship."

How can the championship have been recognized only since 1916, but it was "under auspices" since 1909, and had a "marquee event" since 1911? Speed Demyn (talk) 13:57, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the best way to describe it is that the AAA sanctioned races dating back to 1905-ish. They were stand-alone, and numerous. However, there was no season points title. The first "season championship" (aka "National Championship" or "season points championship") really didn't happen until 1916. That doesn't mean races didn't happen prior to 1916, it just means they were not part of a championship. All the retroactively awarded championships (1902-1904, 1906-1915, and 1917-1919) are complete and utter fiction...more better described as "fantasy", "malarkey" or "poppycock". The more we learn and uncover about Catlin et. al., the more we learn about how it was nothing but a blatant misrepresentation of history. I reworded the intro paragraph to hopefully clear that up. Doctorindy (talk) 13:50, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

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"Formula Indy" listed at Redirects for discussion

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Requested move 31 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Cremastra (talk) 14:15, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

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American open-wheel car racing → Indy car racing – WP:COMMONTERM RegalZ8790 (talk) 18:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). 162 etc. (talk) 03:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Is it though? I'm not sure "indy car" really saw much use before the 1990s, retconning the entire history of American racing is at least worth a discussion. 162 etc. (talk) 05:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  if i can chime in, the page is an overview of Indy car racing only, which has been known by that name since the 1950s. If it was an full histort of American racing it would also discuss the other open-wheel disciplines such as sprint cars, midget cars, super modifieds and modifieds. Not to mention the non-open-wheel of NASCAR and Drag Racing. The article itself is clear that the common term is Indy car. thank you 2605:59C8:10F0:1410:396E:69B0:4005:79DF (talk) 13:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  @162 etc.: What IP seems to be getting at is that the article American open-wheel car racing only discusses the variant of American open-wheel racing known today as Indy car racing. The history of this form of racing is complicated, but I will attempt to explain. This form of racing was once also commonly known as Championship car racing, and in fact, the term "Indy car" originally only referred to the cars built and run in the Indianapolis 500, the most prestigious race of the U.S. National Championship. This race is of such importance and prestige that teams built cars - "Indy" cars - specifically for the Indianapolis 500. These Indy cars, initially, were not necessarily suited for or competitive at other events on the calendar (many events were held on 1-mile dirt ovals, while the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is a 2.5-mile paved track. In time however, the cars developed for Indy evolved to be competitive at road courses and other paved ovals. They also evolved to have rear-mounted engines, high downforce, and in time became formula cars.

  
  

  This type of car was not competitive on the dirt ovals, and teams wanting to be successful in the championship needed to maintain and develop the front-engined, open-wheel, sprint cars suited for these tracks. After the 1970 season, USAC, the governing body of the U.S. National Championship, took all the dirt races off the calendar, creating an open-wheel series today known as Silver Crown racing. Silver Crown cars are the direct descendants of the type of cars raced in the Indianapolis 500 until the early 1950s, but today are not considered "Indy cars". Rather they are the most powerful car in the open-wheel racing discipline known as sprint car racing. While the article I propose to rename to Indy car racing discusses the removal of dirt sprint car races from the schedule, it does not discuss the development of this racing form further.

  
  

  There are also further variants of racing in America which are open-wheel, such as Midget car racing, and supermodified racing, as well as the formula racing cars used in series such as the USF Pro 2000 Championship and the Barber Pro Series, modern rungs on the ladder to Indy car racing. None of these open-wheel racing variants found in America are really discussed in the article currently titled American open-wheel car racing. Why? Because the article is solely focused on the form of American open-wheel car racing known today as Indy car racing. RegalZ8790 (talk) 01:07, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  This is well beyond the scope of WP:RMT. Moved to discuss. 162 etc. (talk) 03:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  Though it isn't, Formula cars are also called indy cars, according to some authorities. So any open-wheel open-cockpit single-seat racing prototype/specialty series/race would be indy car racing, not just American ones, including formula, including spec racing. -- 65.92.244.237 (talk) 05:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  I am confused. Are you asserting that there are "authorities" who maintain that Formula One is contested by "Indy cars?" It would be good to provide multiple prominent sources in high circulation to back up this statement, which is not to my knowledge reflected in any articles dealing with Indy car racing, American open-wheel car racing, the IndyCar Series, or the IndyCar sanctioning body. Is it possible these sources are confused by the fact that the modern Indy car is a type of formula car? Today's IndyCar Series is considered by many to be a spec series, meaning all the cars are identical in design and manufacture. Either way, I am not certain any of this should prevent or support the renaming of the article currently called American open-wheel car racing. RegalZ8790 (talk) 01:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - IMO, there is no common term - the term "Indy car racing" I assume is being based upon IndyCar and the IndyCar Series renaming this will become confusing with these articles. This article covers more thigs that just IndyCar, CART & USAC for example. SimplyLouis27 (talk) 14:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Have to oppose here. When talking about the history of the sport, it is not only a more common term,[1][2][3] but more WP:PRECISE as well. Many people still confuse "Indy car" with "IndyCar". If any change to the title should be done, I'd support removing the word "car". ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  20:30, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. While IndyCar (the governing body) and the IndyCar Series are the ultimate survivor of the concept, it's not 100% synonymous. I agree omitting "car" from the title as redundant, as Ghost of Dan Gurney suggested, should be done. But other than that the fact that CART/CCWS is part of the class makes using the "Indy car" name as the name for the whole article doesn't strike me as wise. It would be akin to naming the general stock car article for NASCAR or the general grand touring article for only one series. If material on lower-level feeder series is insufficient, then they should be added. As for the other forms mentioned, they may be open-wheel, and they may run in the US, and some of those other classes have a common ancestry with the subject of this article, but they're not the class still commonly called modern "American open-wheel racing", for which the "American" in its name originally was used to contrast the class with European-originating formula racing series, such as F1 and its feeders, not to indicate that its all encompassing of all open-wheel forms in the US. It seems that the concern is the term seems overly broad for the subject, but it actually isn't, and the proposed title is too specific. oknazevad (talk) 01:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: For the time being, and for the reasons stated, I have to lean towards oppose at this juncture. Previously, this article was titled American Championship Car Racing, and it was renamed to the current name on 11/22/2020 (without any discussion, for what it's worth). I actually believe that was a better name and would support moving it back - but perhaps that's a topic of a different discussion.

What we now call the IndyCar Series traces it roots all the way back to the AAA Contest Board National Championship races. As noted, the history of this type of racing is a complicated web. But from nearly the beginning, it was always known as Championship Car racing. (sometimes shortened to "Champ"). Sometime around the 1960s, the preferred moniker became Indy Car racing (with a space between Indy and Car). But even that saw some detours - particularly during the Split. After the Unification, they decided to go with "Indy-" rather than "Champ-" terminology. The use of the term "American Open Wheel Car Racing" (or whatever variations of that), seem to be more recent. And from third parties (like the TV announcers, etc.)...using it as a catch-all, umbrella term to be able to merge all the statistics/wins across those earned in AAA, USAC, CART, and IRL/IndyCar. It was most useful when they had former CART/CCWS drivers joining IRL drivers, and they're trying to compare their all-time win totals, etc. Now that that era of drivers is almost all retired, and it's one series again, the need to generalize or make "generic" the sport is a less necessary.

Bottom line, I think a lot more discussion is needed before any article renames. Doctorindy↔Talk 13:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.