Talk:American and British English pronunciation differences/archive 1

Request for removal

In the example of words where the a vowel is pronounced as /iː/ in American English and /eɪ/ in British English, I wish that "deity" be removed. In real conversation, I only had a debate once with people over how the word was pronounced. How I have heard people professionally speak, they always pronounced it as /de.ɪ.ɾi/ (three syllables). Therefore, as there is no scholarly reference source to support the current claim, I request that "deity" be removed.74.102.216.186 (talk) 20:21, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe you haven't heard the pronunciation with /iː/, but it does exist. Webster's gives it as the preferred pronunciation. It's the pronunciation I use and I'm an American. Kostaki mou (talk) 22:51, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the claim in the article was for the first syllable of the three-syllable word, though some speakers in both countries may somewhat elide the first two syllables. I've never heard "/de.ɪ.ɾi/" on either side of the Atlantic. Did you really mean "/e/"? See Wiktionary:deity for audio files and our articles deity and IPA. I support removal, not for reasons of "what I've heard", but because both the OED and Merriam-Webster give both pronunciations as common, so there is little Pondian difference. Can anyone explain why the word is included as a difference? Dbfirs 23:10, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

This is for Dbfirs. Out of respect, to answer your first question, sir/ma'am, it is possible that I really meant /dei̯.ɪ.ɾi/. I did not account for the up-glide.

I thank you both for your participation in this discussion.74.102.216.186 (talk) 00:12, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

... and I thank you both for improving the article. That's how I pronounce the word, too, except for the T (and possibly /ɪ/ at the end because I'm from northern England). Dbfirs 00:29, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, an anonymous IPv6 editor has put back this entry, and also the dubious "renege" where there are possible Pondian differences, but not really the one given in the article. Personally, I would go with major dictionaries such as the OED and Merriam-Webster in their latest editions, rather than Collins. The problem is that there is wide variation in both countries. What does anyone else think? Dbfirs 08:23, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I see that our anon friend has made a comment out of sequence. I'll move it here for clarity: Dbfirs 08:29, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Here's the link as evidence to deity & renege with phonetics & pronunciations, this time from Cambridge Dictionary: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/deity & http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/renege

This is a side note for 2602:306:CE6A:4DD0:F405:C9CB:891F:6BF6. Let's look at the word "either." There are two pronunciations, both are found on both side of the Atlantic. However, the difference is notorious for being one between American and British. And Americans tend to use one and British tend to use the other. Therefore, the example is perfectly acceptable for differences on American and British pronunciations. However, there is no infamous split on the word "deity." Therefore, it should not be mentioned. As a second point, you accused me of vandalism by undoing your edit. Vandalism by definition is "deliberately mischievous or malicious destruction or damage of property."[1] In Wikipedia, all users and guests reserve the right to change pages unless they are protected. As this page isn't, if you make any edit on this page, any reader reserves the right to undo it. Anyway, Collins Dictionary did not support the claim that the pronunciation of "deity" is a difference between American and British English. Therefore, it will be removed again. If you wish to reinstate "deity," you must put the reference to the source in the article. And if I am accused of vandalism again, I will have to report this to administration. Farewell.74.102.216.186 (talk) 19:09, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Since Collins Dictionary isn't persuasive enough for you, try Cambridge Dictionary. I know I shan't have said vandalism, but perhaps you're aren't familiar with British English pronunciations. I'm from the States too, but for 20 years+ of exposure to British culture/media/associates/etc., I'm observant & grown accustomed to their vernaculars. American English is rubbish because they don't accept alternate British pronunciations & they butcher pronunciations of English & foreign words, i.e. entertainment from popular television & music. Hopefully, with the links I provided with phonetics & pronunciations, I will again reinstate deity & renege.

I think all of these words have a marginal Pondian difference, but both pronunciations are common in both countries. I would prefer to include only words where there is more than a marginal difference, otherwise we are going to get lots of arguments like this one. Doesn't renege also have a first-syllable difference? Dbfirs 01:24, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

You're too focused on audio & not phonetics. Here's the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary from another source: deity - http://slovar-vocab.com/english/longman-pronunciation-vocab/deity-7029688.html & renege - http://slovar-vocab.com/english/longman-pronunciation-vocab/renege-7063912.html

According to the given source, "renege" has a second-syllable difference.74.102.216.186 (talk) 01:42, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

As a note to 2602:306:CE6A:4DD0:F405:C9CB:891F:6BF6: the Cambridge source doesn't support your claim, either. When you click American English, both pronunciations appear as acceptable.74.102.216.186 (talk) 01:48, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Longman doesn't support your claim, either. Both American and British English list both pronunciations as acceptable for "deity." I could not care less about "renege." My argument is removing "deity." You are right, sir, that I do not know the British pronunciations well. However, my argument is the American pronunciation. The word is often pronounced as /deɪ.ɪ.ɾi/ in American English.74.102.216.186 (talk) 13:57, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

And as a final note, I just realized that Longman is a Russian cite. Don't use a Russian cite as a source for how something is pronounced in English.74.102.216.186 (talk) 23:34, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Longman is not a Russian site, but it's for people who don't have the software dictionary. These are based on 2 software dictionaries, I didn't post that someone else did in the past. Longman Pronunciation Dictionary 3rd Edition (2008) & Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary 18th edition (2011). Longman & Cambridge is accurate 60 to 90 percent. It's not just the pronunciations & focus on the phonetics, as well. Route needs to be reinstated. Rout (raʊt) is pronounced & spelled in Britain meaning to defeat. Deity needs to be reinstated, as well. Find a person with a southern English accent, he/she will say deity with eɪ & not i. Hurry needs to be put back too. Issue, tissue & sexuallity needs to be reinstated too. Dbfirs, you & I have so many differences in the past, but this user 74.102.216.186 is turning this page into American English that's appropriate to him & eliminating British pronunciations that you & I researched & corrected. 74.102.216.186, I suggest you learn British English before you delete those information that users researched in the past.

Then do yourself. And act like a man.74.102.216.186 (talk) 03:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Also, I will not retract my statement that American English is rubbish because people like you are the reason why English in the States has gone downhill. The use of incorrect grammar on popular teleseries, ie "me & you". The correct grammar is "you & I". Newscasters in the States can't even pronounce foreign words correctly. They can't pronounce the French word of this country ie "Cote d'Ivoire". They have to anglicize it to "Ivory Coast". The way people pronounce anti-/multi-/semi-. It should be pronounced with phonetics: ænti or æntɪ/mʌlti or mʌltɪ/semi or semɪ & NOT æntaɪ/mʌltaɪ/semaɪ.

I don't think criticism of any particular variety of English is helpful here. Our purpose is to document the significant differences, not to pass judgement on them. My view is that where the differences between regions within a country are as significant as the differences between countries, the word does not merit a place in this article. "Hurry" is an example of this because the vowel is the same in standard English on both sides of the Pond. It is different in northern England (and different again in Estuary English), and different for those in America with the Hurry-furry merger, but this difference applies to all such vowels, not just to one word.
If you want a matching criticism of British English, I notice that one of the most common errors on BBC Radio 4 is the use of "someone and I" when the individuals are the object of a sentence so that the usage should be "someone and me". Is this error also common in America? Best wishes to Chicago from a Yorkshire Dale in Cumbria. Dbfirs 09:42, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

On the Oxford dictionary page, the phonetic of hurry on the British section is hʌri & not hɜːri on the American section. "Someone else & I" on a formal setting & correct. "Someone else & me" informal setting & incorrect. Similar to Spanish, "tú y yo".

No formal and informal options, just basic grammar which many people seem to misunderstand. English is not necessarily like Spanish. Is it common in America to almost rhyme "hurry" with "berry"? I agree that the vowel represented by /ʌ/ in IPA is realised differently, but it has wide regional variation, and the difference applies to hundreds of words, so belongs in a different article. Dbfirs 10:05, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

"Someone else and me" vs. "Someone else and I" really depends on the case of the sentence. I remember in school one year, there was a list of what not to do on the wall in my English classroom, each point told in a parody form. Here are a few examples:

• Don't use no double negatives.
• About them fragments.
• Try to not ever split infinitives.

And the one that sticks out here is as follows:

• Between you and I, case is important.

In this context, the grammatically correct statement is below:

• Between you and me, case is important.

The way to know when to use one over the other is by what you would say if you used "we" or "us" instead. So, which one sounds correct?

• Between we, case is important.
• Between us, case is important.

If you can answer this question, the next step is easy. Where you would use "we," you use "you and I." Where you would use "us," you use "you and me."74.102.216.186 (talk) 18:34, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

That's a very useful test. I wonder if our Chicago friend will learn it? Dbfirs 22:31, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you.74.102.216.186 (talk) 22:58, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Between us, case is important - CORRECT. Between we, case is important - WRONG. On a side note, @ 74.102.216.186, since you don't know Received Pronunciation well. Your vernacular is like those people in reality television in the States that airs on cable. All they do is slag each other off, get into a row & throw expletives.

Nice try. I heard this one from teachers, not reality TV. And the question was rhetorical.74.102.216.186 (talk) 02:29, 6 December 2016 (UTC)