Talk:Amish Mafia

Authenticity of show needs to be called further into question

Previously I put a couple quotes in the article which seriously called the show's authenticity into question, however these quotes were later removed. With the accumulating criticism the show is receiving I think the article needs to be updated with a stronger emphasis as to the questionable veracity of the events depicted on the show. Here are some quotes and articles on the subject-

"Donald Kraybill, an Elizabethtown College professor and prominent researcher of the Anabaptist lifestyle, wrote off the show's merit completely. "My own view is this is trash TV," Kraybill said. "To call these shows documentaries is a fraudulent lie."" http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/777587_Discovery-Channel-s-next-reality-series---Amish-Mafia-.html

"The truth of the events portrayed in “Breaking Amish” has been widely contested, and the veracity of this new show is likely to be the subject of just as much debate...An early credit warns of “select re-enactments,” and since we’re never later told whether we’re watching staged scenes, it’s fairly safe to assume that everything is staged. (A closing credit clarifies that “re-creations are based on eyewitness accounts, testimonials and the legend of the Amish Mafia.”) http://tv.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/arts/television/amish-mafia-on-discovery-channel.html?_&_r=0

"Faced with criticism from various sources that the reality show is far from a “reality” show but rather a scripted, completely fake series, Discovery has included a disclaimer in each episode. Some of the events presented onscreen are reenactments, it says, but the stories are true. As it so happens, critics don’t believe it, Inquisitr writes." http://news.softpedia.com/news/Amish-Mafia-Reality-Show-Premieres-Causes-Controversy-313641.shtml

"The Amish Mafia reality show claims to show a small group of “protectors” within the Amish community who drive cars and blackmail bishops. And its complete fiction, critics say... The show starts out with a disclaimer that the Amish church denies that the group exists, and the episode then goes into interviews and re-enactments of the gang as they drink, drive cars, and gamble. Experts who understand the Amish community say that the Amish Mafia reality show is nothing like reality at all. “When I first saw the trailer [for the show], I thought maybe it was a ‘Saturday Night Live’ skit on reality television because it was so far fetched,” said Donald Weaver-Zercher, a professor at Elizabethtown College and expert on the Amish. “My sense is this Amish mafia is about as real as the Dunder Mifflin Paper Company in The Office.” Another expert said after studying the Amish for 20 years, he’s heard nothing about a mafia or anything even resembling it." Amish Mafia Reality Show Blasted As ‘Pure Fiction’ http://www.inquisitr.com/432890/amish-mafia-reality-show-blasted-as-pure-fiction/

"In an interview with Pennlive.com, two Amish Experts, Messiah College Professor David Weaver-Zercher and Elizabethtown College Professor Donald Kraybill challenge just how real the reality show is considering the men’s failure to abide by the very teachings they attempt to enforce. “When I first saw the (show’s) trailer, I thought maybe it was a ‘Saturday Night Live’ skit on reality television because it was so far-fetched,” said Weaver-Zercher. The sentient was shared by Kraybill, who having spent two decades researching the Amish, said, “When I’ve spoken about this program with Amish friends they’ve just kind of laughed and said they never heard of this kind of thing . . . It’s just sort of an example of the foolishness and stupidity and lies — misrepresentations I should say — that are promoted [about the Amish] in television . . . These production crews should be ashamed of trying to say that represents Amish life.”" Experts Dispute Existence of "Amish Mafia" as Reality Show Debuts http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/amish-mafia-dispute-reality/2012/12/11/id/467251

I agree. I put in the information about the star's DUI arrests, etc. Sterling.M.Archer (talk) 19:18, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Additional Brad Igou article: http://blog.pennlive.com/go/2013/02/is_amish_mafia_fake_historian.html Choor monster (talk) 15:15, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

• This article quotes a "Donald Weaver-Zercher". I believe this is a mistake, and the quote is actually from either Donald B. Kraybill (from Elizabethtown College) or his frequent collaborator and co-author, David L. Weaver-Zercher, from Messiah College. The source article referrenced, http://www.inquisitr.com/432890/amish-mafia-reality-show-blasted-as-pure-fiction/, contains the same error. As far as I know, there is no Donald Weaver Zercher, at least not currently at Messiah or Elizabethtown College (according to their online directories). B3wh169 (talk) 18:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Docufiction label not justified

Ok, so I don't think anyone is going to argue that the show is factual. However, its only opinion that its fiction. The reference cited in calling it a Docufiction genre is just an opinion piece by a TV reviewer. Wikipedia is suppose to be an encyclopedia which requires factual support. I propse that we change the genre back to Reality until factual evidence (not just thirdparty opinion ) can be cited. --RobertGary1 (talk) 22:04, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with this wholeheartedly! --Recollected (talk) 22:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
• It should also be acknowledged that recreating scenes does not alone provide factual proof that the show is fictional. I just watched a show on the life of Lincoln. Every scene was re-enacted but it was not fiction. Again, not saying this show is factual; just saying we can't call it fiction in Wikipedia without a citation that proves more than just that it contains re-enactments. --RobertGary1 (talk) 22:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• If you call it "reality" you're saying that it isn't fiction. The preponderance of evidence is that it is fiction. Sterling.M.Archer (talk) 19:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
  • You're probably right, but Wikipedia requires citations. The only citation provided provides an opinion that is fiction and only proves re-enactments (which are common even in documentaries). Are you volunteering to find a suitable source? --RobertGary1 (talk) 21:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
  • We can go with Docudrama until a citation can be found to show the show is fiction. Again we all believe its fiction but that belief alone does not meet the requirements of Wikipedia. We need someone to find a credible source that its fiction (not just re-enacted). --RobertGary1 (talk) 22:00, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
    • so you have proof that the show is real and not fiction? because without verification that the show is authentic, then it should be treated just as any other television show is: like it's fiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.52.85.139 (talk) 16:00, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Why? Articles like Finding Bigfoot, Ghost Hunters, Ghost Hunters International do not use the "documentary" genre, even though that is what they claim to be. Sterling.M.Archer (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:16, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
      • They use Paranormal. I'm not sure that applies here though. --15.211.201.81 (talk) 01:51, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
        • Right. I'm not suggesting paranormal, but I'm pointing out that other articles are not waiting for proof that the show is fiction before abandoning the "documentary" genre. As long as the majority of evidence indicates that Amish Mafia is fiction, the "documentary" label makes no sense. Since there is NO evidence that the show is based on fact, I see no reason to avoid calling it docufiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sterling.M.Archer (talk • contribs) 01:59, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
          • But in those cases the network admits that the show is about paranormal subjects. In this case the network is saying the recreations are of factual events. Because they are stating that it is factual the burden is on us to find a citation that demonstrates that the recreations are of fictional events. Again, I totally agree with you that the show is fiction but so far the only citations we've been able to find are just opinions that the network is lying about the factual basis of the show. (i.e. if you're going to call the network liars we need more than opinions) --RobertGary1 (talk) 02:09, 5 January 2013 (UTC)--15.211.201.81 (talk) 02:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
            • What type of evidence could provide this, short of a confession by the network? Sterling.M.Archer (talk) 04:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
              • I'm expecting we'll see some evidence such as someone saying "I know that Levi guy, his real name is Joe and he lives in New York" or and ex Amish person from the area stating he's never heard of these people. About 1/2 of all Amish teenager leave the religion and live a traditional English life and would probably notice the show. We just need someone with specific knowledge of the characters in the show that can dispute that they are who they are. Or some 20 year old associate producer on the show could state that they made up the stories.--RobertGary1 (talk) 05:07, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
                • So you think the producers of the show are more credible than what is currently documented in the article? What reason is there to take the show at face-value? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sterling.M.Archer (talk • contribs) 18:21, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
• Well, the majority of the media coverage thus far says that the show is fake, prominant Amish experts have given their professional opinion that the show is fake, the article gives several examples of things in the show that are not based in reality such as the fake 'Lancaster County Police' (a made up entity which does not exist) 'rap sheet' for one of the actors in the show, locals have come out and stated that events that are portrayed in the show are completely staged, ie the 'protection racket' scene, and there's even a new quote that could be included in the article- "Brad Igou, the President of the Amish Experience in Lancaster County, says the show is completely made up. “The idea of an Amish Mafia is simply fictional.”" http://www.whptv.com/news/local/story/Amish-Mafia-sparks-more-controversy-in-Central-PA/kAJ1aZkOAE27yWhD2Z2YTw.cspx In the face of all this, I think the overwhelming majority of the available information indicates that the show is fake and thus should be labelled as such in the wiki entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beanier (talk • contribs) 04:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Why not just state that its a "reality" show? Considering that the end-credits of the show itself specifies that its "re-creations are based on eyewitness accounts, testimonials and the legend of the Amish Mafia." Even Breaking Amish is listed as a "Reality" show on the page. Zhanzhao (talk) 06:54, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Because it isn't a reality show. It's a work of fiction. The Godfather, for example, was very loosely based on a number of actual events. Calling "Amish Mafia" a reality show would be as silly as calling The Godfather a documentary. Joefromrandb (talk) 18:51, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

So-called "reality TV" has long been acknowledged to be a gross departure from "actual events caught on film." Several reality-TV shows have been exposed for being partly- or completely-scripted. Just because the events depicted bear no resemblance whatsoever to anything going on in Pennsylvania doesn't mean that it's not "reality TV" as the genre. Jsharpminor (talk) 05:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

There are several bona fide Amish experts cited in the article that say it is fiction. Where do all you Wikilawyers expect to find an "acceptable reference" bona fide Amish expert's opinion does not qualify? I hope you are not holding out for a statement from the show's producers... =//= Johnny Squeaky 18:58, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

All we have is the evidence. There is no evidence that is real. There are experts claiming that it is fiction. To argue that it should be considered real until proven otherwise is the same argument for the existence of unicorns and fairies.War (talk) 21:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

According to IMDB "The Book Of Levi" is not an episode, but a special

See IMDB page here:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2514488/episodes?season=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wildboy211 (talk • contribs) 04:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

• I think I'll remove The Book Of Levi and The Book of Merlin from the episode guide and create a "Specials" section agiain. I'm going to assume The Book of Merlin is also a review episode like The Book of Levi. Zap2it and TVGuide also don't include The Book Of Levi nor The Book of Merlin in their guides so I think you're correct here. Note: Changes will not be made until a consensus has been reached. --Recollected (talk) 04:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

• • I agree that this should be done as well. Even when you go to watch this on Amazon's Instant Video, the Book of Levi special isnt in the list of regular episodes: http://www.amazon.com/No-Peace-for-the-Wicked/dp/B00AMZ3W3K/ref=sr_1_1?s=instant-video&ie=UTF8&qid=1358467095&sr=1-1&keywords=amish+mafia or on TVGuide.com: http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/amish-mafia/episodes-season-1/509289 wildboyz_211 (talk) 00:03, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• I don't see any productive reason to split these episodes into a separate list. According to the Futon Critic listing, all of the episodes have episode numbers,[1] and msn lists the episodes was well,[2] so it seems that all is really needed is a note in the |ShortSummary= field that "this is a special episode". IMDB is not a reliable source for episode content. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:39, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Alan Beiler and Ohio Merlin

There are at least two major characters that are not listed in the article here.

One is Alan Beiler, also referred to as the "schwartzer amish" (correct spelling uncertain). According to various episodes he is an adopted son of one of the Amish families (the Beilers) who is a senior member of Levi's group but something of a loose canon. He is the only one as far as I know who is subject to arrest during the series, and supposedly spends at least four months in prison after being captured following a claimed police pursuit.

Another is Merlin from Ohio, an out of state antagonist who seeks to wrest control of Lancaster (and indeed supposedly the whole of Pennsylvania) from Levi. In one episode Merlin's supposed rap sheet (redacted) is shown, suggesting that he too has spent time in incarceration.

Both of these characters (and other lesser characters) are listed in the IMDB entry for the show.

A former resident from the area (someone who was born and lived in close proximity to Lancaster, PA for many years) tells me that the supposed members of the Amish Mafia persistently mispronounce the words "Lancaster" and "Lebanon", indicating that they may not be truly local inhabitants. I don't have an objective reference for that claim, of course. In Los Angeles, CA, by analogy, visitors pronounce the word "Cahuenga" differently from local inhabitants and thus betray themselves.

I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of the series so I don't feel competent to edit the article; perhaps someone else will kindly do so. AncientBrit (talk) 05:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I added the rest of the cast as listed on the discovery channel page. It still needs some work. For example, it's typical to list cast by which season they acted in. Also, the character descriptions could be more complete. It needs a bit of work.War (talk) 20:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Clean Up

Can someone change the description of the special from "Lebanon Levi works to rebuilt his crew" to "Lebanon Levi works to rebuild his crew"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.7.226.227 (talk) 18:12, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. – Recollected ™ 02:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Scripted Reality

I guess anyone who has ever worked in documentaries (or seen any) can tell you that none of the depicted events are real. This is pure "scripted reality"! 217.93.195.1 (talk) 02:47, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I mentioned that before and as the article cites numerous reliable sources stating the same I'm not sure what the problem is. I actually think it goes beyond "scripted reality" and is almost entirely fiction. "Recreations based on the legend of the Amish Mafia" allows them to do just about anything. "Recreations based on legend" could be used to film a "reality show" showing the Easter Bunny going from house to house hiding colored eggs. Joefromrandb (talk) 06:38, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

According to Snopes, the show is fake also: http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/amishmafia.asp War (talk) 21:02, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Scripted, Fantasy, Nothing but Nonsense

Being from just outside Lancaster Pa, when watching this "reality show" for the first time, I thought it was a comedy skit. I would assume that the producers are aware that they are free to do as they please, as the Amish Community won't get involved with the inaccuracies and flat out ridiculas nature of this cartoon quality show. Is there an intern/externship program for want-a-be producers? Nothing within the story lines is even close to life within the Amish Community. From what I have watched, I don't even believe they have a consultant, they have just read a few things about the Amish and completely molested it. The clothes are even wrong, just co-mingling everything Amish, Mennonite and every Anabaptist sect in between. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.184.72.14 (talk) 20:35, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately everything you've said would be considered WP:OR. I agree that the show is likely all fake. Proving it with appropriate references is the challenge. At the least the article should probably indicate in the first sentence that it's a Mockumentary but how can it be shown that this is the case?War (talk) 21:42, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Also the Black dude Alan, whom the producers have incorporated his personal legal issues into the storyline, actually claims in real life to have been adopted by the Amish! Even a bogus Mother/Son picture on his FB page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.184.72.14 (talk) 23:57, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

We seem to have an edit war brewing here for the section titles based on the doubted veracity of the show, with 1 or more editor(s) here wanting Cast ---> Characters, & Premise ---> Storyline. My 2 cents is (especially in response to User: War) that the article's existing "Authenticity and Criticism" section makes a pretty strong assertion that the show is essentially fully scripted. So for a compromise how about "Cast/Characters" & "Premise/Storyline"? Seems fair to me so I'll edit this in & see what the reaction is... Boogerpatrol (talk) 19:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

A "pretty strong assertion" is not enough to justify claiming that these aren't real people and are instead "characters". We need strong proof that these are characters and not cast, or else we run afoul of WP:BLP in the way that we're treating living people. "Premise/Storyline" or "Premise, Storyline" is redundant. You're effectively saying the same thing with both and the standard in TV articles is to use "Premise" or "Plot" and since the section is not a plot, it's incorrect to use it. Using the slash is also discouraged by MOS:SLASH. Your bold edit also breaches MOS:CAPS. Neither "storline" nor "characters" should be capitalised. --AussieLegend (✉) 19:52, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, I'd checked out WP:SECTION and found neither a prohibition nor precedent for using a slash, and though it's discouraged feel it could be defensible here... As discussed in further up in this talk page though, the caveats upon the show being based on "legend" and with "re-enactment" lends itself to the fact that while the cast members may have the nominal identities presented on the show, they would also be actors/ characters who, at the very least, are heightened versions of themselves conflated with the scripted elements of the story (portions re-enacted/ based on legend) I de-capped per the guideline, and still feel there's a case for my change , but am willing to abide by should others agree to change it back... Boogerpatrol (talk) 20:48, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Using reenactments doesn't automatically turn cast into characters, especially if it's a reenactment based on real people with the people themselves reenacting the events. Despite all the claims by outsiders that the show isn't real, Discovery still maintains that it's factual, and have even aired episodes disputing the claims. Unless very strong proof can be provided that the show is not factual, the claims are still conjecture and the show has to be treated as factual. You might care also to read WP:STATUSQUO. When edits are in dispute, and the most recent changes are, then the status quo prevails until there is consensus to incorporate the changes. It's not the other way around. --AussieLegend (✉) 21:30, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Of course Discovery Channel is going to state the show is re-enactments of real events, they can't say "hey, watch our sitcom".— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.184.72.14 (talk • contribs) 19 September 2013

What's your point? --AussieLegend (✉) 09:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

100% Proof & Common Sense

This article is a good example of a major problem in Wikipedia. Instead of using common sense, some editors hold out for 100% proof that the show is fiction before labeling it as such. There is already evidence, and there is no good reason to accept the assertion of the producers. Accepting their version is the use of primary sources, which should be avoided. Sterling.M.Archer (talk) 22:27, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

good point, remaining bound by the "wink and a nod" assertion of the producers, when there are multiple reliable sources attesting the show's lack of veracity, seems to be an WP:UNDUE reliance on primary sources... Boogerpatrol (talk) 01:16, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Of course the show is fiction. That does not support your section title changes, and there certainly is not conscious on it, and you know it. As such, your changes are not in "good faith" and constitute vandalism. =//= Johnny Squeaky 03:46, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I object to your characterization of my prior edit (which User:Sterling.M.Archer restored) as vandalism. I can't completely follow whether your rationale is even in any sort of "good faith", as it is difficult to understand what you are saying in your 2nd sentence, but that accusation, sir, is quite a stretch... Boogerpatrol (talk) 04:14, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Yadda, yadda. Move on. =//= Johnny Squeaky 05:36, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Per MOS:TV, television episodes are acceptable primary sources. Per WP:PRIMARY, the use of television episodes is therefore not WP:UNDUE as they are only being used "to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge". While there are a lot of people who claim the show is not factual, when it comes down to it the claims are not unassailable proof that the show is fiction. The changes restored by Sterling.M.Archer really have nothing to do with this though. The headings were non-standard, and violate WP:SLASH. The use of "storyline" is both unwarranted and redundant. The contents of the section is not a "storyline" per se, it's just a basic statement of the premise. There has been no evidence that the cast members are not real people, so use of "characters" falls foul of the principles of WP:BLP. Even if reenactments are being used, the cast members are still real people, not characters, so use of "characters" is inappropriate. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:52, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't know whether it helps but an article (http://am1050.com/2013/amish-mafia-in-town-wednesday) dated March 20, 2013 provides a serendipitous insight into whether the show is scripted. John Schmucker is reported to have stated that his sister, Esther, occasionally helps the writers with storylines, and that the events are sometimes "embellished a bit". Make of that what you will. AncientBrit (talk) 00:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

The "issue" of whether or not Amish Mafia is "real" is a false debate. It would be hard to support the idea that it is "real". But that is not the question. The issue here is proper format of section titles. Premise and storyline, cast and characters - these are synonyms and so having both is redundant. Stick with the standard format. =//= Johnny Squeaky 00:52, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Off topic opinion

Agree. Of course it isn't real. But what really provided the sour taste was the trailer for Season One. An off-camera voice (presumably Esther) proclaims there really *is* an Amish Mafia. Amazing how that matches the series title perfectly! This is what I would expect from a seventh grader with a 'D' average struggling with an English essay or composition, not a truly authentic and spontaneous documentary. The executive producer of the show and the owner of Hot Snakes Media, Eric Evangelista on his LinkedIn page has for his goal as revolutionizing the way unscripted television is produced. Well one way you can to that is to just make it scripted which is what this garbage is. I am surprised Discovery purchased this series for a second season. Apparently their lineup is a little thin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Volleyballjerry (talk • contribs) 12:57, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Original research

With the end of season 3, there is some original research creeping into the latest episode summaries.[3] "Steven Breit filed an order to shut down production in February 2014" was not stated in the episode. This was changed to "filed a cease-and-desist order that resulted in production being halted on February 2014", but that wasn't stated either. "Shepherds' End" finished with an on-screen note stating that as of February 26, 2014, production has been halted. The implication is that the cease and desist order allegedly filed by Breit is what was caused production to halt but that was not stated and, given that it's the end of the season, it's not unusual that production has halted. I've changed the summary to a more neutral "filed a cease-and-desist order. The episode ended with an on-screen note stating that as of February 26, 2014, production has been halted", because that actually did appear on-screen. Similarly, the summary for the season finale originally said "The likely series finale" but I very quickly found two sources that said the series had been renewed for a fourth season.[4] Both say it was renewed on April 3, i.e. after February 26 ,so it is unlikely that the episode was the series finale. Accordingly, I changed the summary to "The season finale". Interestingly, despite what Breit said in the last two episodes, he seemed fairly positive only 3 months prior to the cease-and-desist episode.[5] That interview raises another interesting issue, that of Esther's personal relationships. Despite what we see on-screen, she is apparently living with another non-Amish man away from the Amish community and has had domestic problems with him.[6] They have apparently reconciled though.[7] --AussieLegend (✉) 15:23, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Lead and sections

The lead is supposed to be a summary reflecting the article. Bogging it down with details regarding the seasons does not serve that purpose, and thus should be omitted. It is also quite evident that the whole series is a work of fiction under the guise of being a documentary. This is to be included, as is the general concept of the series so the reader quickly can see what it is about without reading the whole article. Hence I'll revert to previous version, as I can't find any support in the MOS:TV#Lead_paragraphs for User:AussieLegend's reversal. BP OMowe (talk) 14:50, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I was surprised by AussieLegend's revert, though I ran out of time to properly follow up. The staged nature of this series, promoted as a documentary, is far more salient than the dates the various seasons aired. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 15:00, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

(ec)@BP OMowe: You need to look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section, as that is superior to WP:TVLEAD. The lead is supposed to summarise the main points in an article and, since this article contains season information, it should include a summary of that as well. In fact, since most of the article is about the episodes, there is ample justification for retention of what is there now. This is really very common for current series when the series does not have a separate "list of episodes" page. Normally that information would normally be included in the lead of the "list of episodes" article. Ideally, per WP:TVPLOT, each article should contain a plot section, as the article currently does. That should be separate from the lead, not merged into it. Including such bold statements as "in reality it is staged fiction" requires strong support by citations from reliable sources, not just the opinions, some non-NPOV, that are present in the article. The lead should merely summarise the "Authenticity and criticism" section. Another point regarding the edit from today, the convention is to use "Series overview" and "Episodes" as separate headings. "Seasons and Episodes" is not a heading we use, even with correct capitalisation. Moving content from the lead to that section provided some ridiculous redundancy. The section started with prose that summarised the series overview table that immediately followed it, which summarises the episode lists. It makes no sense to group all that together. And, of course "Amish Mafia is a American television series". I don't know why the IP changed from "an". --AussieLegend (✉) 15:05, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

@AussieLegend:After contemplating a bit and having dinner before replying, I'm able to assume good faith. There seems to be some misconceptions here, that needs to be addressed. First of all, that the general MOS takes precedence over the topic's MOS. The WP:TVLEAD should be derived from the general MOS and thus in compliance with it (otherwise it needs to be revised) but since it covers the specific topic, the TVLEAD is the governing manual. More important is that even the MOS states that "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies". The version you reverted to fails considerably to do this, and if you are correct that the common practice is to have such leads, that practice goes against both the general MOS and the specific TVLEAD and needs to be corrected. Most important is they, if so is the case, oppose WP:COMMON and should be ignored. The seasonal information might be redundant in the Episodes section, but where it absolutely does not belong is in the lead. The lead is supposed to be a summary and not contain every minute detail along with references. Relevant for the lead is when the show started, how many seasons it ran and when it was cancelled. Having a Plot section does not mean the general theme should be lacking from the lead, nor is a plot-section meaningful unless it provides more information than is given in the lead. I readily confess to have failed spotting a American series when polishing IPs edit, good catch. Articles within the article should always be correct :-) The "in reality it is staged fiction" certainly could be better phrased, but should have been just that and not reverted. With the risk of going into the area of OR, staged fiction is something Discovery channel have received a lot of criticism for in series ranging from Amish Mafia and Sons of Guns to programs like the one about the Submarine shark, i.e. a consistent behaviour. I know I got a bit verbose, but end goal of it all is that this article (like all other) should be as good as possible. BP OMowe (talk) 20:17, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

There certainly is a misconception regarding the MOS. Project specific MOS entries don't override the "main" MOS, the two work together. The main MOS provides Wikipedia wide guidance, while the project MOS' provide additional guidance specific to particular projects. WP:TVLEAD does not override Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. You'll find, if you look at more articles, that most fail to comply with the MOS, that's just something we have to tolerate until somebody fixes things. Note that MOS:LEAD also says "The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources". As I've explained earlier, given that most of the article deals with episodes, it's obvious that, as the article stands, they are a very significant part of the article, so should be summarised in the lead. If we continue, MOS:LEAD also says "The lead is the first part of the article most people read, and many only read the lead. Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article" and that's what the lead does. If the article was expanded to include more information, then the lead could focus less on the episodes but until then we have to summarise what we have. You're correct that "Having a plot section does not mean the general theme should be lacking from the lead" but we shouldn't eliminate he plot section just to make the lead bigger. If we do that then we really shouldn't mention the plot, since it's then not part of the article body. The "in reality it is staged fiction" is not supported by reliable sources so it's original research, which has no place in the article. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:18, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Having lots of inferior articles does not mean this or any other article should be kept in that state. Since you does not show any interest in improving the article, and given the number of reverts in the article history, you are simply being obstructive and advocating. BP OMowe (talk) 20:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Nowhere did I say the article "should be kept in that state". I said "that's just something we have to tolerate until somebody fixes things" (emphasis added). I'm actually encouraging expanding the article so that we can change the lead accordingly. If you look through the article history, you'll see that it is subject to vandalism, unsourced non-NPOV additions, changes that remove MOS compliance etc. These are all things that should not be in the article. I suggest you look more closely at what you see. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:27, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

And rather than fixing details like MOS-compliance by simple copy/paste, you revert the whole article meaning no one CAN make useful contributions with less they fix the whole article, thus making the writers' efforts meaningless. Your reasoning regarding the lead further deters improvement. That most of the space in the article is occupied with data-tables of episodes does not make filling the lead with seasonal data (which by the way is referenced with the "reliable, published source" thefutoncritic.com) anywhere near "creating interest in reading more of the article". Neither does taking a lot of space signify the episode data to have "importance to the topic [my emphasis]", which makes having the lead consist of seasonal data make even less sense. Finally, on "The 'in reality it is staged fiction' is not supported by reliable sources", there is the prosecutor and college professors stating the show is "foolishness and stupidity and lies", "about as real as the Dunder Mifflin Paper Company in ‘The Office’." and "no such 'mafia' group". Discovery Channel claims it to be real, but has yet to present any evidence refuting the accusations, nor have I seen any other sources back up the claims. Finally, the conclusion that the so called discovery is staged fiction was published in Washington Post and New York Times. All this is already present in the article, yet you dismiss it as original research? Bit odd. BP OMowe (talk) 21:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The edits that you made introduced so many errors, such as those listed above, that "fixing details like MOS-compliance by simple copy/paste" was not possible. The part of the edit that could possibly be retained is better fixed by complete reversion followed by starting again. To address your concerns I've made this edit, to improve the flow of the lead and summarise the "Authenticity and criticism" section that was not mentioned as well as adding a brief overview of the series premise. I don't understand your reasoning that "no one CAN make useful contributions with less they fix the whole article, thus making the writers' efforts meaningless". The content in the lead is driven by the body of the article, not the other way around. We write the article body and then base the lead on the rest of the article. If we expand the article then we can expand the lead. We don't write the lead and then expand the article. There is absolutely no reason that the article cannot be expanded. Regarding sources, specifically those that you have listed above, these are still just opinions, they are not definitive proof and cannot be because these individuals are not involved in production. "Many reviewers argue that the series is staged fiction" is supportable, "in reality it is staged fiction" is not. Please note that this edit, quite apart from the fact that it introduced formatting errors into the series overview table and unnecessarily duplicated references used elsewhere in the article, is completely inconsistent with every other article. When dates have past, i.e. when the series has premiered or ended, we remove citations confirming the start and end dates, while still retaining the information in the prose. Despite having edited 24,675 Wikipedia articles I have never seen a single article with an "announced" column. --AussieLegend (✉) 00:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I rather have some redundant references than risking the removal of relevant ones, and I'd rather include some trivial facts than risking potentially useful information being lost. Therefore I moved the seasonal data other places since they are clearly unsuited for the lead but might be useful for someone else. Not quite sure what formatting errors you refer to, as the table looks fine to me both in FF and chrome. When it comes to the article having to be expanded from the body, I have to call strawman argumentation. The information was and is present in the body, but the lead did not reflect that. Also, the seasonal data defied the purpose of the lead: a summary of the article inviting to further reading. Reverting entire entries on formal technicalities is definitely preventing the improvement of the article. When we come to sources, we can with your reasoning never have any proof, as even those participating in the production would merely give opinions and no repeatable experiments can be done. Anyway,latest edit should be agreeable to both. BP OMowe (talk) 14:00, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy to see our differences settled, and that you took the time to correct the mistakes I introduced. BP OMowe (talk) 21:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

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