Talk:Amita Kuttner

Pronouns were confusing

I've changed they/them to Kuttner, so as to lesson the confusion. GoodDay (talk) 23:07, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I am not sure how much confusion there really is. The article identifies Kuttner as transgender and notes that they use they/them and he/him pronouns. In time, I think it may be a bit cumbersome to try to avoid "them/he" and always use only their/his last name. For what it is worth, this is our policy on pronouns: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity. It says avoiding pronouns "should only be done as a last resort". Reliable sources seem to be using "they/their". The easiest option is probably for us to follow their lead.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 23:29, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Does Kuttner also use "he/him"? GoodDay (talk) 23:31, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

They seem to be comfortable with both they/he. Their twitter says "they/he/ille". But media has been using they/their/them.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 23:34, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

If we're going to use pronouns, then I recommend "he/him". GoodDay (talk) 23:36, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps, but they have also identified as non-binary as noted in the article. Using "he/him" might be pretty binary. Alternating between "he/they" would likely be confusing. As with most things, it is usually easiest for us to just follow the WP:RS. I have put a note on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies page, perhaps that will result in some further input, guidance, discussion.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 00:09, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

If they identify as non-binary and use they/them pronouns, I'd suggest going with that, instead of he/him. Could you post some reliable sources using they/them, Darryl Kerrigan? Isabelle ^🔔 00:15, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Sure. The press release from the party announcing Kuttner's appointment uses "they". So do articles in the CBC, Global News, and the Tyee, among others.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 00:25, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I support using they/them: as I understand it, the order in which a trans person lists their preferred pronouns (a/b/c) might indicate some preference towards a then b then c. Additionally, only using the last name is terrible for readability. Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 00:30, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

"They/them" reads too confusing. Either we use "He/him" or just the surname. GoodDay (talk) 00:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

It is not too confusing for the good readers of the CBC, Global News, Toronto Star or the Tyee. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity doesn't say anything about avoiding "they/their" pronouns. It does say avoiding pronouns altogether (ie only using surnames) "should only be done as a last resort".--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 00:48, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I've asked for more input from WP:CANADA. GoodDay (talk) 01:00, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

They/them reads best to me, and is in keeping with what most sources are using. Replacing all the pronouns with the surname is awkward. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:15, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

They/them is Kuttner's apparent preference and what is being used in the media. I disagree that this is confusing; the singular they is well-attested. — Kawnhr (talk) 02:54, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't see how using they/them pronouns is confusing, especially since the article mentions that they use they/them pronouns. —{{u|CupOfTea696}} ^{[ talk | contribs ]} 03:48, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

There seems to be a consensus to use they/them pronouns. I have restored them.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 05:13, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

'Tis too bad. But, that's the result. GoodDay (talk) 06:00, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that the article does not state clearly which is the birth gender and which is the present gender. A much clearer article on a transgender person is that on Chelsea Manning, which could be used as a model to improve this article. 156.34.234.213 (talk) 00:55, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

I think you are imposing a "birth gender"/"present gender" dichotomy that you would not find in sources about this article subject. - Astrophobe (talk) 21:39, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Re sources: there are two sources given for Kuttner's 2019 candidature, from the Vancouver Sun and from Huff Post Canada. These two sources consistently describe Kuttner as "she" and "her", which is not now reflected in the sentence which cites these two sources. 156.34.234.213 (talk) 15:20, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Per MOS:GENDERID, there is no reason that the formerly used pronouns should be reflected in this article. We simply refer to the current gender identity and only offer an explanation where this might be confusing/ASTONISHING. Newimpartial (talk) 15:39, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

The Toronto Sun also uses they/them. (CP "Amita Kuttner says Green Party must stop infighting, focus on environmental issues," Toronto Sun, November 25, 2021.) I think we should follow the pronoun usage in mainstream media, even if it sounds strange to us. We should neither be in the forefront of change or resistant to it. TFD (talk) 09:48, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

References