Talk:Amna Elhassan

Discussion of proposal for deletion

Just a short time after I have uploaded this new article, an undisclosed user posted this on the article page: It is proposed that this article be deleted because of the following concern: the information is false and puts the person described in danger (proposed by Writingforknowledgetransfer) - Based on my experience of having lived some years ago in Khartoum and having met the artist herself, I don't see that any of the information of the article would correspond to this proposal, as it is entirely based on RS, and even in accordance with the artist's biography on her official webpage. - So I am asking an admin or other experienced user to give their opinion and refute this proposal. Also, it seems to me unjustified, if anyone can raise such sweeping objections without even being a registered user, causing extra work to WP editors. Thanks, Munfarid1 (talk) 17:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The tag is inappropriate. Sorry for the distraction. The article is good and describes what the artist is trying to advocate publicly FuzzyMagma (talk) 21:29, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Tags for notability and primary sources

Hello User:Netherzone talk you flagged this article for notability and excessive primary sources. As I tried to take these important aspects into consideration before writing the article, I would like to raise some questions: 1) Why do you think that the solo exhibition in one of Germany's foremost art museums and the long article about it in the prestigious Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, along with the artist's other international and national exhibitions and her invitation as a guest lecturer at Hamburg Art Academy are not notable enough? (At the Frankfurt museum, her work is presented at the same time as that of Marc Chagall.) How many exhibitions and professional distinctions does a young African artist need to be notable? In other words: What would be needed to make this blp notable? - 2) IMHO all of the sources are secondary sources "one step away", and I truly don't understand which ones you consider as excessive primary sources? Thanks for your answers, as they will undoubtedly influence my further articles about artists from African or other countries that English language media, including WP, often neglect. PS: Just added another secondary RS, an article by The Economist, calling Elhassan "a prominent Sudanese artist". Best, Munfarid1 (talk) 20:27, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello Munfarid! Yes, that is correct I added two maintenance tags to the article because she does not seem to meet criteria for WP:NARTIST nor WP:GNG. Which criteria in these guidelines for notability do you think she meets?

The article is based on one show at one notable gallery, and one review. That is not enough for GNG nor for NARTIST. I know it's disappointing to hear this, and I'm sorry for that as I'm sure you put a lot of time into it, and she is an interesting emerging artist. However I really think it's WP:TOOSOON for her to have an encyclopedia article.

My analysis of the referencing sources is as follows:

1. This is a calendar listing from HFBK. It is a listing from a school she lectured at (HFBK). It is not WP:SIGCOV, is not independent (primary source) and does not contribute to notability.

2. This book by Fuhrmann is NOT about her, however it contains some illustrations that she and another artist created collaboratively. There is also a "contributor's statement" which is a two sentence bio. We need sources that are about her and her work. Not SIGCOV, does not contribute to notability.

3. The Economist article is NOT about her it's about another artist, Kamala Ibrahim. It does mention Elhassan. We need significant coverage of Elhassan, not another artist. Not SIGCOV, nor does it contribute to notability.

4. The Schirn Kunsthalle "citation" is not a source at all, it's a press release. It is a primary source. It is not independent since it announces a show she is in at this institution. All this source does is verify she had a show, having shows is what artists do. Not SIGCOV, not independent, and does not contribute to notability.

5. Statement by Alaa Salah does NOT mention her at all. It is not SIGCOV and does not contribute to notability.

6. Journal Frankfurt is not a review, it's a press release. There is no byline. It is based on the gallery's press release where she had the show, and therefore it is not independent. It is not SIGCOV and does not contribute to notability.

7. Frankfurther Allgemeine is a review, and it has a byline. It is indeed SIGCOV and does contribute to notability. We need more like this to establish notability.

8. Vitaminedz is a press release that simply lists her name as one of the artists in a show of 57 artists. Not SIGCOV, and does not contribute to notability.

9. Afriartgallery is a gallery listing and press release for her show at that gallery. It is not independent, not SIGCOV and does not contribute to notability.

The two items in the "Further Reading" section, the book by Daum & Diab does not mention her at all. Why is it listed here? The Fuhrmann book is already in the refs and should not be duplicated here. Netherzone (talk) 22:51, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Netherzone Thanks for your detailed review and explanations of SIGCOV as applicable to my sources. I understand that this article might have been written too soon. On the other hand, I am confident that there will be more independent and detailed reports in the coming weeks, as the exhibition has just started. - Can we leave it as it is for some time or do you recommend I keep it in my sandbox until there will be more SIGCOV? Best, Munfarid1 (talk) 23:18, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

PS The article by Daum & Diab under Further reading is meant to give interested readers access to more information on contemporary Sudanese artists, which is difficult to find. Isn't this the reason for Further reading? Munfarid1 (talk) 23:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello! Since it is already in Mainspace, I did not want to send it to AfD because I agree that she will be notable in the future, but it is now TOOSOON in terms of her career accomplishments. Generally, the first thing I look for is whether an artist's work is included in several permanent collections of notable museums, and if there are multiple full-page reviews solely about their work, or book chapters or monographs in art history books. If you feel like it's safer to draftify or userfy the article until there is enough SIGCOV and more verifiable evidence of notability, you might have to ask an administrator if it's ok to move it to draft space from mainspace for incubation. Here's the guidance on draftification WP:DRAFTIFY.

Re: your question about Further Reading, here's an essay on the Manual of Style guidance: Wikipedia:Further reading. I think it's ok to leave the Daum & Diab. Normally I use Further Reading for additional content that other editors may want to include in the article (but I might not have time to do so myself). But it is perfectly fine to include works that expand upon the subject. Netherzone (talk) 00:28, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

@Netherzone Thanks again for your helpful comments. You have pointed out a number of guidelines that I wasn't aware of. Munfarid1 (talk) 10:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

You are welcome, and it is nice to run into you again. I'll keep an eye out online for any press on her, as I'm sure we will be hearing more about her in the future. It's also wonderful to meet an editor from Sudan! This is one of the things I love about the WP community, the way we collaborate internationally. Be well, Munfarid1, Netherzone (talk) 16:09, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

@Netherzone I appreciate your friendly comments and share your idea about collaboration across cultural backgrounds and interests. Be well, too. Munfarid1 (talk) 16:31, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Netherzone, in the meantime, I found a reference to a 50-page book focusing on Elhassan's works with accompanying texts, edited by well known art historians (Director of Hamburg Art School and of Frankfurt art museum), and published as a first overview on her work in English and German. The source provided on this brand new book is so far only an announcement by the publisher (primary source), but the book is already listed in the German National Library catalog. - I suppose this will contribute to her notability, but after an artist's talk on Dec 2, I expect more reviews. Will keep you posted, until we hopefully can ascertain the article's notability. Munfarid1 (talk) 13:29, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

That sounds like an excellent source, @Munfarid1 - good find! Netherzone (talk) 16:01, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello again @Netherzone, in the meantime, I have found and included quotes from the museum director and the exhibition curator after the quote from FAZ, along with their independent sources by news media that report in detail about the exhibition in Frankfurt. If I judge the secondary sources correctly, we now have 4 of them: FAZ; art-in.de/ ; artisnext.net, and the 50-page catalog on her life and work in English and German. - Do you think this is enough to ascertain her notability and to delete the hatnotes? Munfarid1 (talk) 11:32, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Munfarid1, Yes, I'd say it's definitely ok t remove the hatnotes, and that her notability is established. The only thing I noticed was that the artisnext.net link goes to a 404 missing file - when I click on "Artists" to see if I can find her manually on the site, she is not listed. Are you sure that is the correct URL? Either way, even without that citation, the article looks very good. Nice work on this! Cheers, Netherzone (talk) 14:16, 6 December 2022 (UTC)