Talk:Andreas Papandreou/Archive 1

Archive 1

In memoriam

For an interesting obituary on AGP, go www.parrisia.com
85.73.39.52 15:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Photograph : from Switzerland or Greece?

I'm afraid the photo showing Papandreou holding a piece of paper while speaking to an audience is from the declaration of "Pasok's Principles", which took place in Greece, in the 3rd of September, 1974 - and not in Switzerland, as currently stated. I will change the legend accordingly and provide source. -The Gnome (talk) 09:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Tone and citations

This article is in a complete mess. On top of being completely uncited the Political career section reads like a polemic against Papandreou. Terms like Fief, velvet coup d'etat, Peronist etc smack of POV gone wild. If citations are not provided for using these exact terms they will be removed. In addition the style needs major overhaul, example: He rewrote high school history textbooks to positions supporting the Communist positions on Greek Civil War Aside from being completely uncited did he actually write the textbooks? Many other examples have been omitted. Major cleanup is needed, as this section is out of control. Dr.K. 16:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Cleaned up some. Please examine and comment. Thanks in advance. -The Gnome (talk) 09:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I checked and tagged some more points. We can either find citations for these or remove them in a month or so. Dr.K. (talk) 05:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Citations

Please, use citations to verify your claims about his influence on the economy

Where does this "George Papandreou, junior" and "George Papandreou, senior" convention come from? I've never seen it done this way before. Two google hits: [1] --Jiang

They are two different people with the same name. But they are not "Sr" and "Jr" in the American style. Adam 07:36, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

What do you mean by "American usages"? The British repeatedly and erroneously refer to George H. W. Bush as "George Bush Sr" [2][3]

Jr and Sr is an American usage. The fact that the Poms don't understand how it works would seem to confirm that. Adam

But yes, you are right, they are not Jr. and Sr. However, the current formatting does not appear elsewhere and seems rather awkward. Why not just have Giorgios Papandreou (or George...) and Giorgios Andreas Papandreou (and place a disambiguation note on the top of each)? placing "junior" and "senior" after the name implies they are father and son and the author forgot to capitalize. --Jiang

They are both Giorgios (George in English usage) Andreas Papandreou - that's how Greek family names work, every eldest son is named after his paternal grandfather. I don't think it makes much different what the files are called because people will search for Papandreou if they are looking for any of them. It only implies they are father and son to Americans, who are 5% of the population of the world. And even it does inmply that, so what? Amyone who reads the articles will learn otherwise. Adam 07:52, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Most contributors here are Americans. We don't have a representative cross section of the world's population reading Wikipedia articles on Greek politicians.

Why isn't "Andreas" included in the "senior" article? How about George Papandreou (elder) and George Papandreou (younger)? Don't also assume that people reading these articles have extensive background knowledge on this issue. They should know what their topic is before they begin. --Jiang 07:58, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

But if you call him GP (elder) won't people assume he is an elder (a small tree of the honeysuckle family, sambucus canadensis)?

But sure, change it if you want. There are bigger things in the world to argue about. Adam

Or we could disambigulate by their birth and death years, but that is unprecedented. --Jiang

Is this the only example in the whole encyclopaedia of two people with identical names, who are not Sr and Jr, and who have the same occupations? Adam

Adam I think that you don't have a very neutral opinion about A.Papandreou. I believe you should show a bit more respect to a person that motivated about the 50% of greek population. For 35 years (1945-1981) Greece was governed by a regime (parakratos), there was not a stable democracy. More of 50% of greek people were,less or more, treated like parasites. Karamanlis knew that, he once said "Who does rule this county ". (...after Lambrakis assasination).It is wide known that the US supported this situation (...C.I.A documents etc.). Papandreou just expressed the anger of Greek people for the US policy all these years. It is true that he had done many mistakes in his political carreer, but it is also true that he 'balanced' the Greek community.

If you take a closer look into the modern Greek history you will realize that what i say about 'healing the wounds of the civil war and stabilising Democracy' is not far away from the truth.

I don't respond to anonymous comments. Adam 09:21, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm not anonymous. I just want to keep my privacy and I don't believe that you will show more respect to my point of view,even if you read my name.

However, here we are talking about someone's biography. You can't judge a person that you don't even know.

A.Papandreou was a one of the great economists of our century. He was one of the first people who talked about "modern socialism" in mid 50's. He had a great academic carreer, he worked in the best universities in US.

It is very selfish to write something so prejudiced for this great man and to demand from everyone else to accept it.

"It only implies they are father and son to Americans, who are 5% of the population of the world. And even it does inply that, so what? Anyone who reads the articles will learn otherwise. Adam 07:52, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Most contributors here are Americans. We don't have a representative cross section of the world's population reading Wikipedia articles on Greek politicians."

I assume you can back up your claim that most Wikipedians are American???!!! And even if they are, why should Wikipedia bow down to American conventions? 80.177.152.156

[4] Came across this article. Had not heard of him, but he sound hmm like Papandreou. Now the born of the article look like he was not fun of Israel. That kind of was missed by wikipedia article

'Greece's economy from 1981 to 1989 did not improve.Instead it got worse.' Do you have citation for the above??? Because there is none in the text. Greek GPD has INCREASED from 1981 to 1989. I am deleting it. If you want it to stay provide a CITATION or an argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.203.151.204 (talk) 18:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Εγγυκλοπαιδικα παντα(Δεν ειμαι ο προηγουμενος) η οικονομικη πολιτικη που εφαρμοσε ηταν μια αποτυχια. Το ΑΕΠ πραγματι αυξηθηκε αλλα καταφερε εριξε τον ρυθμο(Ενω ειχε μπει στη ΕΟΚ, που αντικειμενικα θυμιζει ολιγον απο τζαβες). Ενδεικτικα ρυθμος αυξησης ΑΕΠ 1975-1881(Πραγματικος) 4,35%(μεσος ετησιος)

                             1981-1989(Πραγματικος) 1,05%(μεσος ετησιος)

Δημοσιο χρεος 1980(Επι ποσοστου του ΑΕΠ) 23% Δημοσιο χρεος 1990(Επι ποσοστου του ΑΕΠ) 80%

1981 κατά κεφαλήν Α.Ε.Π. ~70% ευρωπαϊκού μέσου όρου 1990 κατά κεφαλήν Α.Ε.Π. ~60% ευρωπαϊκού μέσου όρου

(Πηγη. European Economy N. 64 Statistical Appendix)

Εχει κανει καραμπινατες χοντραδες για οικονομολογο της κλασης του, αλλα δεν θα μεινει στην ιστορια γι αυτες, θα μεινει για τα θετικα του , που ηταν κυριως η συμβολη του στην εθνικη συμφιλιωση και τη μειωση των κοινωνικων ανισοτητων

I added a section and some citations to reflect your comments. Ευχαριστώ. Dr.K. (talk) 17:48, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Recent drastic changes without inline citations

I have reverted the recent changes due to complete lack of citations. Please discuss changes here before adding any new big edits to the article. Thanks. Dr.K. (talk) 17:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Read the article re: from American to Greek

Tasoskessaris, I appreciate your concern, happily that was not my intention. But if you read the article on the University of Michigan site [5] - it is an academic, peer reviewed article - you might say it is pro-Papandreou. The article also says that, "He undertook to achieve a political feat of major proportions.". Also, from a Greek diaspora point of view, there is nothing unusual or derogatory about going to Greece 'reverting' back to Greek. The article states, "The national rebirth that Papandreou called for was coincident with his own rebirth as a Greek." That strikes a poignant cord with diaspora Greeks. In this spirit I hope we will re-introduce the extract and can adjust it to dispel any 'anti' interpretations it may sugjected to. Politis (talk) 18:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Politis. I have doubts about the paper being academic. Its tone is far from academic. It sounds more like an informal reflection on Papandreou and not like a rigorous academic study at all. Talking about Papandreou's body language etc., in my opinion, is an extraordinary claim which requires additional, academic, sources, to be verified. Terms like "rebirth" are not academic, but rather reminiscent of tabloid-type pulp fiction. No citations or references to other academic works are present in the paper. Statements such as:

The transformation had an interesting somatic manifestation. Andreas?[sic] gait changed, his wife Margaret noticed, and became characteristically Greek.

are competely unsubstantiated without any support from external references. How did the author know that Margaret noticed? What were his qualifications to observe the change in Papandreou's gait? What exactly is a "Characteristically Greek gait"? Short answer: Greek stereotype-promoting nonsense. As far as the citation being peer reviewed I would like to see proof of that. Dr.K. logos 18:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

The University of Michigan has a very reputable Modern Greek Studies department with the Kavafi Chair [6]. The people teaching there, such as Artemi Leontis, are of international repute. In this respect, I doubt they would post a tabloid-style article for a bit of fun, they are a reputable department that, in a way, has put its stamp on a description of Papandreou. From a Greek diaspora logic, it seems a very sound and perceptive extract - you know, food for thought. It might be interesting to approach them. Anyway, I appreciate your academic argument, there is not much of it in Wikipedia. Politis (talk) 18:58, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the paper makes some interesting points about Papandreou. Thank you for sharing that. Also thank you for your kind words. It was a pleasure meeting you again. Take care. Tasos (Dr.K. logos)

In any case, the material expresses opinions. You can quote opinions, if they are notable, but you can't just copy them on the pretext that they are expressed in a reliable source (even if it is one), to present them as Wikipedia's own statement. Plus, of course, you can't just copy them verbatim as you did; that's plagiarism. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:13, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarism: "a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work". In this particular case, the edit had a direct link to the institution that carried it and the author who wrote it; ergo, this does not classify as plagiarism. Easy. Perhaps quotation marks would have helped. Otherwise, not interested in agenda-driven comments. Finally, there is logic in Tasoskessaris argument and I will not re-introduce the quote. Politis (talk) 09:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Recent large uncited additions

Over the past day or so two attempts have been made, diff1, diff2 to add large, unsourced chunks of text into the article. In addition many of the claims such as "soundly defeated" are also POV and WP:OR because they are completely uncited and unattributed. They were reverted. Comments, opinions from other editors are welcome. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 21:35, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

File:Andreaspapandreou2.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Tendentious Phrases and Wording

This entire entry is peppered with all sorts of ideologically-slanted phrases and biased conclusions. Anyone who has read objective history about Papandreou's administration knows that a lot of what is written here is "hero worship." Someone more objective needs to review, add, and edit this entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.216.154.2 (talk) 17:06, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

3rd wife

Why is there no mention under "private life" of his 3rd wife, Dimitra Liani, and a link to her Wikipedia page? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitra_Liani — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.95.181.134 (talk) 16:41, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Image reversed

The main photo has the image reversed, like in a mirror. This needs to be changed ASAP. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Recognition of Greek Resistance against the Axis

It would be naive to believe what Papandreou was the first to recognize the Greek Resistance against the Axis occupation. The Greek State obviously recognized Greek Resistance right after the war. What Papandreou recognized was the communist resistance groups which were previously considered by the Greek State that they were not fighting for Greece but for communism, instigating a civil war soon after the Germans left Greece and Greek rule was reinstated. Take a look at the article Greek Civil War.

I made the appropriate correction. Citation pending :) Nxavar (talk) 07:24, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I restored the correction and incorporated a discussion on the issue of the Recoginion of the Greek Resistance against the Axis Occupation into the main body (section Political career -> The "Change"), including the necessary citations. Nxavar (talk) 14:19, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Change importance for University of California and Greece WikiProjects

I changed importance for University of California to mid (student that became prime minister) and importance for Greek Politics to top (prime minister for many years, founder of a party that provided 3 prime ministers in a period of more than 30 years). Nxavar (talk) 09:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC)