Talk:Andrei Chikatilo/Archive 1

Archive 1

talk

The execution of Andrei Romanovich Chikatilo was carried out in "Pistol Target Room No 3", in the Rostov-on-Don Central Prison.

Contrary to the generally held belief, the condemned prisoner does not have to kneel, and then be shot, but is strapped into a heavy wooden chair, which is bolted to the concrete floor of the room. The chair rather resembles the U.S. electric chair in appearance.

The chair is situated in front of a three meter high sand bag wall, and surrounded by a zinc cachment area, which contains a drainage channel for blood. The executioner is a member of the prison staff, and will be one of many who volunteer to be state registered executioners.

He will not have been seen by the condemned, and will be waiting at the rear of the chamber behind a screen. After the warrant of death has been read by the Principal or Deputy Principal of the prison the executioner rapidly walks behind the seated prisoner. He wears felt slippers, and his approach is hardly audible.

The weapon of execution is usually a Makarov 9 mm service pistol, which is swiftly placed behind the right ear and fired. It is known in prison parlance as the "nine grams treatment", which is the bullets weight.One round is usually fatal, and cosiderable brain tissue is carried out of the head as the bullet exits on its way into the sand bag wall.

Andrei Romanov Chikatilo died mouthing curses and obscenities at his executioners. An unamed Japanese scientific group had offered to buy Chikatilos brain. It is doubtful that the Soviet authorities would have allowed this to happen, and in any event, the brain would have suffered massive tissue damage from the 9mm bullet.

There is a further gruesome procedure which is carried out in the prison mortuary, but I think that the execution details will suffice. Jim Prideaux

---

194.108.138.253 wrote:

Chikatolo defended himself by pointing to his childhood's experience of the notorious famine which took place in Ukraine in the 1930's. This was said to have disturbed his mind as there were widespread acts of cannibalism in the affected areas. — Chikatilo was born in 1936, whereas the great famine was in 1932-1933. Perhaps it was the wartime experiences in 1940s? — Monedula 12:58, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That's still there, in the form of "and Stalin's plans of agricultural collectivisation would cause a devastating famine." Which is especially incorrect, as that famine was 1932-33 as mentioned. g026r 21:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Jokes about Chikatilo

In October, 2002, Moscow English-language newspaper Exile published a fake news article saying that Moscow Mayor proposed to build in Moscow a statue of Chikatilo (whom the article incorrectly calls Anatoly).

I heard that it was a joke on Mayor Luzhkov's proposal to re-estblish the monument to Felix Dzerzhinsky, which was removed in 1991. This proposal was never implemented.

http://www.exile.ru/2002-October-17/chikatilo_statue_causes_stir.html

Chimera?

Was Chikatilo a Chimera? The text about the semen sample and blood test not matching seems to indicate that.

Negative. He simply did not secrete blood into his semen, even in trace amounts, as most of us do.

Photos

For an article about a serial killer in the Soviet Union, one would have thought there would be many more photographs. As most would be public domain no? Heres a couple of links I've found:

• http://www.missstrict.net/humanhunter.html
• http://forum.netvigator.com/forum/thread.jspa?threadID=48047&start=0

One of the first ones would be good I think...

- FrancisTyers 14:23, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Article needs link to "list of serial killers - Ukraine" Jbhood 11:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Alexander Pichushkin

This guy, Alexander Pichushkin, could possibly be the successor of Chikatilo. The press are calling him the "Crazy Chess Player" because he confessed planning 64 murders - one for each square of the board, and was 4 murders short of his goal when captured. Till now 14 bodies were found, all in the Bitsa Park in the suburbs of Moscow. Since I'm not too good at Russian and I am not familiar with Russian news agencies etc., I thought I would invite anyone here to have a go at an article since you should all be more well-versed about this than me! Here are the few links I have from MosNews (English): [1] [2]

_└ ^VodkaJazz / _talk ^┐ 11:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

If you have an active link, I can take a go. I am rusty but should be able to handle most of it.~~johnway2001@aol.com 12:08PM pst, 27-jul-07

Try this one: [3] Palefire 15:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

His canabilism?

When I read about this guy in a British newspaper years ago, it claimed his teeth all fell out due to him eating his victims (gnawing on bones you see) and his teeth were replaced with steel ones. There was a picture of him with the steel teeth. I think the information about his canabilism should be put into the article. Snowbound 06:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

It would only be put in the article if you found some source to substantiate it. CynicalMe 09:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3254074.stm I assume the BBC would be a credible source? If not, I know a few Russians who were there at the time and counld recount the released information which did include acts of cannibalism. ~~Johnway@aol.com 12:00pm PST, 27 Jul 2007

talk

The execution of Andrei Romanovich Chikatilo was carried out in "Pistol Target Room No 3", in the Rostov-on-Don Central Prison.

Contrary to the generally held belief, the condemned prisoner does not have to kneel, and then be shot, but is strapped into a heavy wooden chair, which is bolted to the concrete floor of the room. The chair rather resembles the U.S. electric chair in appearance.

The chair is situated in front of a three meter high sand bag wall, and surrounded by a zinc cachment area, which contains a drainage channel for blood. The executioner is a member of the prison staff, and will be one of many who volunteer to be state registered executioners.

He will not have been seen by the condemned, and will be waiting at the rear of the chamber behind a screen. After the warrant of death has been read by the Principal or Deputy Principal of the prison the executioner rapidly walks behind the seated prisoner. He wears felt slippers, and his approach is hardly audible.

The weapon of execution is usually a Makarov 9 mm service pistol, which is swiftly placed behind the right ear and fired. It is known in prison parlance as the "nine grams treatment", which is the bullets weight.One round is usually fatal, and cosiderable brain tissue is carried out of the head as the bullet exits on its way into the sand bag wall.

Andrei Romanov Chikatilo died mouthing curses and obscenities at his executioners. An unamed Japanese scientific group had offered to buy Chikatilos brain. It is doubtful that the Soviet authorities would have allowed this to happen, and in any event, the brain would have suffered massive tissue damage from the 9mm bullet.

There is a further gruesome procedure which is carried out in the prison mortuary, but I think that the execution details will suffice. Jim Prideaux

---

194.108.138.253 wrote:

Chikatolo defended himself by pointing to his childhood's experience of the notorious famine which took place in Ukraine in the 1930's. This was said to have disturbed his mind as there were widespread acts of cannibalism in the affected areas. — Chikatilo was born in 1936, whereas the great famine was in 1932-1933. Perhaps it was the wartime experiences in 1940s? — Monedula 12:58, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That's still there, in the form of "and Stalin's plans of agricultural collectivisation would cause a devastating famine." Which is especially incorrect, as that famine was 1932-33 as mentioned. g026r 21:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Jokes about Chikatilo

In October, 2002, Moscow English-language newspaper Exile published a fake news article saying that Moscow Mayor proposed to build in Moscow a statue of Chikatilo (whom the article incorrectly calls Anatoly).

I heard that it was a joke on Mayor Luzhkov's proposal to re-estblish the monument to Felix Dzerzhinsky, which was removed in 1991. This proposal was never implemented.

http://www.exile.ru/2002-October-17/chikatilo_statue_causes_stir.html

Chimera?

Was Chikatilo a Chimera? The text about the semen sample and blood test not matching seems to indicate that.

Negative. He simply did not secrete blood into his semen, even in trace amounts, as most of us do.

Photos

For an article about a serial killer in the Soviet Union, one would have thought there would be many more photographs. As most would be public domain no? Heres a couple of links I've found:

• http://www.missstrict.net/humanhunter.html
• http://forum.netvigator.com/forum/thread.jspa?threadID=48047&start=0

One of the first ones would be good I think...

- FrancisTyers 14:23, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Article needs link to "list of serial killers - Ukraine" Jbhood 11:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Observation

Have you seen that Andrei Chikatilo was found guilty a day before his birthday ?(see October 15 1992)

Technically?

"though an innocent person had been executed for his crimes, so his death toll would technically be 53)." Technically how? Would Russian law allow him to be held criminally responsible for that execution? If this just means morally responsible, I would like to delete this passage. 24.131.12.228 05:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you could say he "indirectly caused" an additional death, or else delete it like you say. Jbhood 09:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

All right, I went ahead and took out that passage. 24.131.12.228 17:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

number of victims?

The main article states 53, this article states 56 and this one states 52. Which is correct? Lugnuts 16:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Confessed to 56, tried for 53, convicted of 52. ~~johnway2001@aol.com 12:02pm PST, 27 Jul 2007

Movie Citizen X

The movie Citizen X doesn't portray the Russian police as 'arrogant and incompetent'. More like fatalistic and demoralised. One of the central themes of the movie is how the Communist ideology inhibited the proper execution of the investigation because the local Party apparatchik insisted that they don't have serial killers in the USSR. Whether or not that actually happened, I don't know. There is one arrogant and incompetent policeman in the movie, but he's not a major character. The heroes (Stephen Rea and Donald Sutherland) are dedicated and highly competent. Lexo 23:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

question about the popular culture section

In the pop culture section it states that he was an inspiration for Hannibal Lecter. This is highly unlikey for several reasons. The first being that it was stated in the documentary for "Hannibal Rising" that Thomas Harris got his inspiration from being a crime scene reporter in the 60's. Secondly Hannibal was introduced in 1981 in the book "Red Dragon" and Chikatilo was barely a blip on the Russian radar screen let alone a figure worldwide. His statements about being a cannibal would not likely have been in the mass media until at least his trial in early 1992. Also Harris has alluded on several occasions to several serial killers being inspiration and Chikatilo has not been one of them. For these reasons I believe that statement should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.50.55.16 (talk) 03:03, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Returning POWs

His father, who was captured and imprisoned by the Nazis during the war, returned home a social pariah; in Stalinist Russia, surviving prisoners of war were viewed as cowards.

This statement does not seem to reflect Stalinist policies. Prisoners returning from foreign captivity were viewed with political suspicion, not as cowards. Deserters from the Red Army (who are more likely to have been regarded as cowards) were treated far more leniently than returning POWs, regarded as traitors.

Jonathan Headland 15:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Number of victims

I once read a book written by the police officer who got Chikatilo apprehended and tried for the killings where C stated he had killed 53, possibly more. However, only 51 of those murders could be proven. Does this ring a bell to any of you? I'll see if I can find the book in the library. OktoberStorm 09:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Ukraine as an independent state did not exist when Chikatilo was born, therefore I changed it to reflect that he was born in the Ukrainian SSR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.15.6.114 (talk) 22:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Misc.

There is a contradiction in the chapter 'Chikatilo did not murder again until 1982 [...] He didn't kill again until June 1983.' I suggest that whichever is incorrect to be removed, or slightly re-write it in order to avoid confusion.

Also, in 'Chikatilo in film and books', the characters Viktor Burakov and Mikhail Fetisov are mentioned ― however, they have not been mentioned earlier on in the article, and thus the reader cannot know who these persons are. 85.94.246.241 (talk) 06:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems some elements have been removed from previous versions of this article. I'm not all that familiar with the Wiki system, but I did notice these two things. 1st. This article is in the "Vampirism (Crime)" category, and 2nd. The archives have a section on Andrei Chikatilo's cannibalism (referencing http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3254074.stm). And yet no mention of Vampirism or cannibalism is mentioned on the part of Andrei Chikatilo in the current article. WulfgardMartel (talk) 15:25, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Link seven

Under childhood, the link for number 7 doesn't work. Here's another link to fix it: http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/spring03/rawlins/chikatilo.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sgjo23 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks for spotting. I've replaced the link with two verifiable ones.--Kieronoldham (talk) 19:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the photos

Thank you to whoever added the photos. It makes the article ALOT better :)Lenachka25 (talk) 07:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Cultural impact and fame

This article is obviously lacking a section about the subject's importance for modern russsian-speaking culture. The name Chikatilo has became an appellative for any kind of serial killer, like Casanova as a lover-boy. The number of victims and the nature of his crimes are only a fraction of the whole picture. His name, by a strange coincidence, is a pun. The word "чик" (chik) is an onomatopoeia for the sound, that scissors or any other double-blade tool produces, and "чикать" (chickat) means "to cut with scissors"[4]. In sub-criminal slang this even means "to cut someone with a knife". And the ending is similar to the ending "-ила" (-ilah), that is used to exaggerate or overtone the process, that someone makes. For example, "Громила" (gromilah) states for a bulky, aggressive, fight-loving person, a crusher - a derivative from the verb "громить" (to crush, to commit pogrom). So, combined chikatilah literally could mean a ruthless slasher, if it were a real word.

The other reason is that this was the time, USSR was near its end and lost almost all control over the media. Chikatilo's was the first well covered mass-homicide case, so the public shock was immense. He has became the soviet Jack-the-Reaper, a target for number of anecdotes. Unlike other killers, who often have unremarkable appearance, he revealed a demonic looks on the trail (this and this pictures of his became semi-iconic).

I'm not a fan of Chikatilo neither I try to make an altar for him. Still, his "popularity" is undeniable. It's hard to provide relible sources for that kind of urban fame, but it's there. Everyone, who was born at least in eighties know his name. The new generation is loosing it, but it's still there.

The article is closed for editing, and even if it wasn't, I'm sure wikipedos would find some WP:RS or any other stupid WP:STFU&GTFO rule to justify the deletion. So, for anyone, who can edit this page and who knows, how to formalize such things so the bureaucratic dogs couldn't yelp: please do it.

Thx in advance --85.176.18.133 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC).

Thanks for your opening this discussion here on the talk page. I and others are of course open to discussion here as to what should or shouldn't be included in the article which you've written about and apreciate your feedback here. I do genuinely find the content of your contribution to this talk page interesting, and can well apreciate the legacy Chikatilo has left: not just in Russia, but also to a significant degree in the West, and in my opinion more than any other Soviet serial killer.

The coincidences regarding his name, which I genuinely find interesting (and was unaware of) are, however, just that. These coincidences have been noted with regards to other murderers and serial killers. For example, the first syllable of John Wayne Gacy's surname is not without irony considering he the fact he raped, tortured and killed 33 teenage boys, but to the best of my knowledge these coincidences are not included in Wikipeda articles about serial killers.

I agree that he as left a lasting notoriety, and perhaps a chapter with this title could be included directly below the victim table? Hopefully this chapter could be without trivia (which is sometimes included in Wiki. articles on infamous persons) such as the fact some bands have happened to write songs about him?

As for the second paragraph you wrote, I and other users have made edits which, I feel, already include the significance that the timing of Chikatilo's murders coincided with the final stages of the breakdown of the Soviet Union, and how the initial red tape hindered the investigation yet, after Glasnost in was declared in 1986, greater coverage of the murders was given. The article already specifies that his arrest occured just before the ultimate collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 and that his trial was the first major media event in post-Soviet Russia.

Chikatilo had the demonic look in the earlier stages of his trial as a prison precaution against lice meant he had his hair shaved off - hence the demonic look. I actually wrote the words 'which had the effect of making him look demonic' when I wrote about the this being the standard prison precaution against lice, but it was later removed by another user. If consensus is agreed to this being included once again, then perhaps an inclusion to the fact his that his head was shaven had the effect of making him look demonic and that the media picked up on this, giving him such titles as the 'Red Ripper' could be included once again? Incidentially, his inconspicuous appearance before his head was shaved and prior to his arrest helped him to blend into crowds during the years of the manhunt and, as he himself readily admitted, enabled him to convince many of his victims that he was a respectable, middle-aged man.

I own three books on this case and have used them in the edits/inclusions which I myself have made. If you feel a greater emphasis should be made in any particular aspect of the coverage (or lack of) in the manhunt for Chikatilo, then I can look through them again to find a rererence or two to accompany a further inclusion/greater emphasisyou feel should be made?

Kindest regards,--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:34, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

One single sentence

Quote: " Despite evidence linking Chikatilo to the girl's death (spots of the girl's blood were found in the snow near Chikatilo's house and a witness had given police a detailed description of a man closely resembling Chikatilo whom she had seen talking with Zakotnova at the bus stop where the girl had last been seen alive),[23] a 25-year-old named Alexsandr Kravchenko who, as a teenager, had served a jail sentence for the rape and murder of a teenage girl, was arrested for the crime[24] and subsequently confessed to the killing." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srelu (talk • contribs) 19:10, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Book by Pristavkin

There is a book by Anatoly Pristavkin who headed the Pardon Commission of the Russian Federation and read all original documents of the case of Chikatilo, Kravchenko and a lot more. It describes a couple of details of the case that I now included. The book is "Valley of Deadly Shadow" (Russian, Dolina smertel'noi teni). In particular, there was incorrect information about Kravchenko. Any objections? My very best wishes (talk) 21:21, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I think the conflict with the original reference deserves mention. Perhaps both should be included with a clear reference to a dispute over whether he committed a rape and murder or 'petty vandalism'? According to one reference to Kravchenko, his watertight alibi on 22/12 was unshakable and as you mentioned in your adjustments it wasn't just his wife who verified his account of his movements. This reference I have stated he was, however, detained in 1/79 for theft of clothing and police, still mindful of his record (whether this be 'petty vandalism' or 'rape and murder') decided to search his house and detain he and his wife. A search conducted on this occasion, according to the reference I have, revealed blood traces on his wife Galena's shirt: this matched Zakotnova's blood type. (The fact she and his wife were of the same blood type apparently didn't come into consideration).

The fact that the article mentions the posthumous pardon at the end vindicates Kravchenko's innocence regardless of which account is actually true. Regards--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:01, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

According to book by Pristavkin, Kravchenko dug out someone's grave when he was 14, and his father paid a fine of 30 rubles for that. Book does not tell anything about theft, but the book is obviously not a biography of Kravchenko. At least he was not a previously convicted rapist. He was at home at the time of murder according to initial testimony by his wife and another women named Gusakova. The investigators placed big criminal guy to the cell of Kravchenko, and he beat him every day until Kravchenko finally "confessed". Overall, I do not see any significant disagreements between the book by Pristavkin and current text of this page except Kravchenko. Perhaps some details about Chikatilo could be added. My very best wishes (talk) 02:17, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't deny the validity of Pristavkin's research; my problem is that the other references included in the article are hardly unreliable. I have several books on Chikatilo and some state he committed a rape and murder in his youth. These books are hardly unreliable sources. Nonetheless, I'm happy to see the edits you made remain on the article as regardless of what he did or didn't do in his youth it is blatantly obvious he was framed for this murder and forced to confess due to intimidation and violence. (These books also hark to the intimidation and pressure placed on Kravchenko to confess.) As for details on Chikatilo being added, which details would you like to see added? I'll be happy to look through the books I have again and see what I can do.--Kieronoldham (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2013 (UTC).

First arrest and conviction

Unless I'm completely missing something, there's a gap in the information on this page. We're told that he was tried and convicted for a 15 year sentence in 1979, yet he was free and killing again in 1981. How? Was he released early? Was he never actually jailed? Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 06:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you're confusing Kravchenko with Chikatilo here. Chikatilo committed the murder and was questioned about it due to the circumstantial evidence, eyewitness testimony and a fellow teacher noting the composite sketch police made to being remarkably like Chikatilo. He too was questioned, but police took a greater interest in Kravchenko and released Chikatilo.

It was Kravchenko who was tried for Zakotnova's murder and sentenced to the maximum term, then retried and sentenced to death. The killing of Zakotnova was never linked to Chikatilo until his confession to her murder in 1990 and from 1981 he resumed killing.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Convictions

Here is the full text of Chikatilo's sentence (wikisource:ru:Приговор по делу Андрея Чикатило). I'm not sure if it's available in English but it Russian it reads:

"Therefore the court classifies Chikatilo's actions as:

- according to art. 120 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation - as committing sexual abuse against minors;

- according to art. 15 and 121 part 2 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation - as an attempt to commit sodomy with the use of physical violence and threats against minors;

- according to art. 15 and 117 Part 3 of the Criminal Code - as an attempt to rape minors;

- according to art. 15 and 117 part 3 (in the Edition of the RSFSR Law of 25.07.1962) - as an attempt to rape a minor;

- according to art. 15 and 117 part 4 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation - as an attempt to rape minors;

- according to art. 102 pp. "g, e, z, i" of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation - as a premeditated murder of victims committed with special cruelty, linked to rape, of two or more persons committed by a person who previously committed a premeditated murder;

- according to art. 17 and 122 part 2 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine - as an attempt to commit sodomy committed with the use of violence against minors;

- according to art. 93 pp. "E, Z" of the Criminal Code of Ukraine - as a premeditated murder committed with special cruelty, by a person who previously committed a premeditated murder;

- according to art. 15 and 94 part 2 of the Criminal Code of Uzbekistan - as an attempt on rape committed by a person who had previously committed the same crime;

- according to art. 15 and 94 part 4 of the Criminal Code of Uzbekistan - as an attempt to rape a minor;

- according to art. 80 pp. 6, 8, 9 of the Criminal Code of Uzbekistan - as a premeditated murder with special cruelty, linked to rape by a person who had previously committed a premeditated murder."

According to the Russian law, rape ("изнасилование") can only be committed against a female victim, the similar crime against a male at that time was called "sodomy committed with the use of violence" ("мужеложство, совершённое с применением насилия"); now it is called sexual assault ("насильственные действия сексуального характера"; literally, "coercive sexual actions"). So as these crimes are different according to the law, I decided to write them separately.--IgorMagic (talk) 04:51, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Never doubted your integrity, Igor. I don't doubt your integrity, and never have. The problem is, it isn't literally translated as such into the English language sources used here, though.--Kieronoldham (talk) 05:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

I tried adding a Russian-language external link many months ago to this article and it was removed by another user with a 'language barrier' being the justification for his/her removal.--Kieronoldham (talk) 05:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

"Alleged" last words

There are quite a few websites reporting Chikatilo's last words allegedly to have been him pleading his executors not to damage his brain, referencing the rumored, but nonexistent, Japanese psychiatrists wanting to purchase it intact after his death. Examples: [5][6][7]; Ctrl-F for "Japanese" to find the relevant part. However, searching for the precise wording used for the quote in all three of these reveals that it was not used anywhere, online at least, until this Wordpress post in January 2010; set the search to only look for results before, nothing. Tried some other broader Google searches for pre-2010 results, but still could not find anything about such a quote. I would be interested in finding out whether or not any reputable source has ever even mentioned this, or if this is a misunderstanding of some kind, or even a hoax, possibly even started by the aforementioned post. It is possible that the quote was originally reported in a Russian-language source, but as I do not speak Russian I wouldn't know. If there is a reputable source or several that mention this quote (preferably preceding the 2010 Wordpress post?), it could probably be added to the "Execution" section. --85.76.84.151 (talk) 01:50, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

I do not think a translation from Cyrillic to English would be "Don't blow my brains out! The Japanese want to buy them!" Nor were media present in a dingy Novocherkassk(?) execution chamber. A year or three after Dahmer, Chikatilo became a media sensation, with authors with fertile imaginations copying each other's stories etc.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:05, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Note that I did not mean that the quote should be understood as factual in any case, just that it being reported (by reliable sources, if any) in the first place could be worthwhile to mention in the article. Even falsehoods may be significant in certain instances, and above there is already discussion of including material about Chikatilo's cultural influence, of whom this could potentially be an example of. Of course its inclusion or omission is ultimately not a big deal. However, I am slightly concerned that at least one language edition (Finnish) uncritically reproduces these (doubly?) spurious last words, with references to a Wikia page and a dead link. Vetting language editions for this particular possible invention could be of interest to someone with sufficient time in their hands... but that's neither here or there. --85.76.84.151 (talk) 02:24, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate your observation. Falsehoods, and conjecture, are not encyclopedic and would basically reduce the article to the level of a fanzine. The claims he created campfires and "roasted" victims' flesh on the spot (incidentally cited by Kostoyev in Lourie's book) are also fictitious. I can't speak for the pages in other languages. I agree with your observation on this issue re: removing spurious inclusions across language barriers. Adding the suggestion here (Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)) may help, if it's not been included/added already. As long as the intention is benign. Be happy to provide citations to remove falsities in the Finnish language, but the source would be in English. Would that be "stepping on the toes of another language" though. That is my concern.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:06, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Informal language

Perhaps it would be better to say he "Suffered from nocturnal enuresis" than to say he was a "Chronic bed wetter" Charrop09 (talk) 16:56, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Blood group analysis nonsense - he wasn't a medical phenomenon, Soviet methods sucked

As stated currently in the article Chikatilo was apparently a medical phenomenon, a singular case of "paradoxical secretion" newly discovered by Dr. Svedana Gurtovaya.
Apparently, as stated currently in the article, "investigators obtained a sample of Chikatilo's semen to test his blood type, the results of which confirmed that Chikatilo's semen was type AB, whereas his blood and saliva were type A."
This is backed up by references to a book by Robert Cullen "The Killer Department Detective Viktor Burakov’s Eight-Year Hunt for the Most Savage Serial Killer in Russian History" with a note explaining that "Investigators had received a circular in 1988 indicating that in extremely rare cases, a man's blood type may differ from his semen and saliva type".

Citations and notes fail to mention that the "discovery" of phenomenon, 1988 circular alerting investigators of said discovery AND the final determination that "Chikatilo's semen was type AB, whereas his blood and saliva were type A" - all came from the same source.
Namely, Dr. Svetiana Gurtovaya, chief of the biology lab in the bureau of forensic medicine of the Ministry of Health in Moscow.

Article and cited notes further fail to mention that Gurtovaya's "paradoxical secretion" theory was rejected by every expert outside Soviet Union, instead questioning Soviet methods - which was even done contemporaneously within Soviet Union.
I.e. Everyone, ever, concluded that Soviet forensic methods sucked. Except the boss lady.

Citations below are from the same book by Robert Cullen, some even from same pages as notes in the article.

Pages 149-150:

"Gurtovaya's assertion that blood and semen types could differ had no  support in  the  world community of  forensic scientists and physicians who specialize in  the  matter. Their opinion was that, given proper testing, only two results are  possible.
Either a  person will  have the  same antigens in  his  or  her  blood and  secretions— that is, a  person with type A blood will have type A  secretions. Or he or she will be a "non-secreter," with no antigens at all in the semen, saliva, and other bodily secretions.
In  addition, studies were calling into question the  competence of Soviet laboratories, suggesting a different explanation for the discrepancies Gurtovaya had found. Successful testing required not only skill and  care on  the  part of  the  laboratory worker, who had  to mix the  semen sample with reagents and peer into the  microscope to determine whether the  cells were clustering or  not. It  also required proper procedures and a supply of accurately manufactured, consistent, and uncontaminated laboratory reagents.
In the decaying Soviet Union of the late 1980s, none of that could be assumed.
A study published in 1989 by a scientist named T. V. Stegnova, in a Soviet journal called Forensic Medicine Expertise, reviewed nineteen Soviet sex crime cases and found that in eight of them, the laboratories had incorrectly analyzed semen types. In some cases, they had failed to  use  proper controls or  to  follow other vital test procedures. In some cases, Stegnova wrote, it  appeared that the reagents used on semen falsely showed the presence of  the B antigen. Criminals with type A blood and secretions had left semen that Soviet laboratories had typed AB."

Pages 236-237:

"The trial also failed to  explain satisfactorily the discrepancy between Chikatilo's type A  blood and the  semen samples found on fourteen victims and analyzed as  type AB.
Judge Akubzhanov accepted a  document from Dr. Gurtovaya's laboratory in  Moscow attesting to the fact that Chikatilo's semen was type AB and stating that he was an example of an extremely rare, newly discovered phenomenon called "paradoxical secretion,” in which an individual has blood of  one  type and secretions of another.
Dr. Gurtovaya's explanation would have been difficult or impossible to defend in a courtroom where the defense had the right to call its own expert witnesses.
Special agent David Bigbee, chief of the  FBI's DNA analysis laboratory in  Washington, stated flatly in  an interview for this book that "paradoxical secretion” does not exist. So did one of the world's leading experts on  blood and secretion analysis. Dr. Rafael Oriol of the  French National Institute for Health and Medical Research in Paris. Dr. Oriol, after learning of  Dr. Gurtovaya's theory, was convinced that the  Soviet laboratory work on the  killer's semen had been systematically flawed.
He had, he said, helped organize an  international conference on  problems in  blood typing in Lund, Sweden, in 1990. The Soviet delegation to  the conference presented a  newly developed laboratory reagent known as a monoclonal anti-B antibody. The Soviet antibody was found to work perfectly well in tests of blood. If it was applied to type B  blood, it caused the cells to cluster under the microscope. But when it was used to type semen, the reagent caused a false B reading in  some, but not  all, type A semen. In other words, certain kinds of type A semen would be read, falsely, as AB.
Until the  international conference, the Soviet scientists had  not  been aware of  the flaw in their reagent. Dr. Oriol said. This monoclonal anti-B antibody was too new to have been in use in Rostov and Moscow in 1983 and 1984, when most of the semen analyses were done.
Dr. Oriol speculated that some similar problem had caused a systematic error in typing Chikatilo's semen.
That speculation was consistent with the article published by  T. A. Stegnova in 1989 in the Russian journal Forensic Medicine Expertise, which found about a forty-percent error rate in semen samples initially judged to be type AB  by Soviet forensic laboratories.
But, due to Judge Akubzhanov's willingness to accept Dr. Gurtovaya's "paradoxical secretion" theory, there may never be  a complete explanation of  this  critical aspect of  the  lesopolosa case."--109.175.104.62 (talk) 02:25, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

The same books used in the references (which I own) state that Soviet laboratories in the 1980s held the same degree of sophistication to be expected to be found in your American high school. One of the books (I believe Cullen's but maybe Conradi's) states text towards the end of a chapter reading to the effect of "but by the end of 1988, [investigators] were back further than that" regarding developments regarding blood typing. Care to add a reliable reference to substantiate an addition to negate the content of the references currently used? :)--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:38, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I just cited the book used in notes and citations as source of nonsensical claims about "paradoxical secretion" - including the fact that same tests and documentation was used at the trial.

But hey... you want to support pseudoscientific nonsense... Knock yourself out. 109.175.104.62 (talk) 02:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

A lot of what you are writing I have read. But I'm looking at p. 236 - 237 of Cullen's book right now. What you write is there. Are you suggesting a further note be added, or an additional chapter to negate this issue (good point btw). If so, I believe an alternate ref. would be best to support an addition, as four books in particular are already used heavily as sources.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:50, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

IMHO it should be stated in the text that blood type analysis was wrong and rejected by everyone who didn't have "a dog in the race" - a note could be used to point out the details, like that it was poorly done, not the only case of such an error in Soviet Union at the time and suggested reasons for the error.--109.175.104.62 (talk) 02:59, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I'll add a note in there shortly at an appropriate chapter (but will try and find a source not in prv. mentioned four books). It should be expounded. If you've ever seen the film Citizen X, there is a mention on screen that Gurtovaya's "colleagues around the world" scoffed at the idea of her assertion regarding the phenomena.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:09, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Revert of edit

@Kieronoldham: I see that you reverted my removal of content in this edit. In the edit diff you mention that you know this information is in an interview. Can you cite this information so that it isn't removed again? Thanks. Z1720 (talk) 02:19, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Sure, Z1720. Just don't want to over-saturate usage of the same reference source.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Kieronoldham: If more than one consecutive sentence uses the same source, then the citation can be at the end of the last sentence that uses that source to verify the information. Otherwise, it is better to oversaturate with citations than to have no citations at all. Z1720 (talk) 02:34, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Aye. Rectified.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

It was not proven that he killed a girl in 1978. His conviction was dropped (by Russian Supreme court). Please correct the article. Feww2 (talk) 15:34, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

See note #17.--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:43, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

from this article: "between 1978 and 1990", "span of crimes 1978 – 1990", this is not correct (considering Russian Supreme court decision). Feww2 (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

It was what he was convicted of (and confessed to). He led investigators to all the crime scenes. The Russian Supreme Court decision came later, in response to his denying specific cases at his trial. For example, the Bilovetsky boy was killed with a knife found at his home. The knife had a chipped blade; the missing chip was found at the crime scene and perfectly fitted with the knife Chikatilo admitted to using.--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:01, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

No, there were contradictions in this case. He couldn't remember important details, etc. http://www.serial-killers.ru/lesopolosa/shaxtinskoe-delo-ubijstvo-e-zakotnovoj-1978.htm

138610 Feww2 (talk) 04:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Doubt that is a reliable source. All the books and most reliable online sources add these cases. Regardless, the cases "not sufficiently proven" were solely those ("and the girl Tsana from Riga. I don't know whether you should count her or not. I doubt that I killed her") he chose to deny at trial.--Kieronoldham (talk) 04:28, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

"Span of crimes: 1978(?)-1990" would be better. He was not convicted for this murder. Feww2 Feww2 (talk) 09:21, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Name

@Kieronoldham: I think that the romanization of the name added after the Russian native name Андрей could have some spaces for discussion. I was thinking should we put an efn template that states the name is also transliterated in a another way? (e.g. Ilya Ponomarev) СлаваУкраїні 05:59, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, PoisonHK. Personally, I think this is a gray area which needs to hold consistency on Wiki. (consistently and maybe polyglots could reach a compromise here). Transliteration may hold an unnecessary level of interpretation, but, having said that, I think that would be ideal. Hope I don't convey myself as a stick-in-the-mud.--Kieronoldham (talk) 06:12, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I will add it now if there is no other issues. СлаваУкраїні 08:48, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

 DoneСлаваУкраїні 08:54, 14 January 2024 (UTC)