Talk:Andrew Ross (sociologist)

Ig prize sourcing

I'm concerned about the use of original research to associate the subject with a parody prize, and where the sourcing is primary as well. I think we'd rather have a strong secondary source that directly covers the prize's impact on the subject's life and/or career, rather than synthesizing "X was a member of Y when Z happened". In any case, the wording could be better if the claim is included, and I don't believe the material belongs in the lede at all. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 22:51, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Issues at the discussion below aside, I find this objection worth looking into. I can find no solid source that supports the contention that Ross is "known for" winning an Ig Nobel prize. The actual listing on the Ig Nobel website gives it to "The editors of the journal Social Text" without naming any of them by name. A search of news sites turns up hits for the article subject, but none within the context of the prize. The only mention comes in something of a rant by Richard Dawkins, quoted in this article (where it could be put in more of a summary style), but not exactly lede-worthy. BD2412 T 12:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Promotional bloat

Well over a dozen consecutive edits have been made to this BLP by a 100% spa which pile on promotional material and remove unfavorable material, which suggests WP:COI. I have reverted to a more balanced prior version. Xxanthippe (talk) 09:03, 12 November 2016 (UTC).

WP:Soapbox

This BLP is being used as a blog of the activist exploits of its subject. I have pruned this improper use of Wikipedia. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:07, 24 May 2018 (UTC).

Inappropriate language in Intro

My name is Andrew Ross, the subject of this Wikipedia article. I have consulted on the best way to edit information on my Wikipedia page and was provided instructions on how to post the request here on the talk page. The main request I have is for the removal of the “Ig Nobel Prize” from the introductory section of the article. This is a dubious "award" that was given in jest as part of the Sokal affair, and is already talked about later in the article. There is also a lengthy, dismissive quote in the article on this topic, yet quotes from others on this topic and on my many scholarly achievements are left out of the article. There is also information missing from the page to include my latest book and my work with the NYU Prison Education Program (which I helped start). 216.165.95.160 (talk) 17:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:Auto, WP:Own. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC).

@Xxanthippe: I frankly question whether the person who left this comment is who they claim to be, and whether they will ever see your response to it. BD2412 T 20:27, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I share your views and, among other odd contributions to this BLP, I also note the edits of User:Foxtrot620 that were deleted because they were unsourced. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:52, 27 June 2023 (UTC).

@Xxanthippe I apologize for my lack of sourcing. I took a much needed break from editing after a long term project I was working on triggered some of my post-tramatic stress (I was working on the Triage page, which is very heavy subject matter, but I digress). I have uploaded the evidince my previous allegations here. As I don't know the details of the Wikipedia policies related to uploading this to commons, I uploaded it to a hidden page on my personal website, which you will see matches my name in my Wikipeida bio. I also filled a formal complaint with NYU as the living persons attempt to wrongfully impact wikipedia is a violation of their ethical policies. Further, I have never acted outside of the strict policies of Wikipedia for paid editing. It has always been disclosed and substantive. I would also like to point out that my attempt to warn the community of incoming inappropriate behavior as soon as I found out the extent of what Mr. Ross was requesting should be taken as a sign of good faith. My edits are always in the best interest of the community. Foxtrot620 (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

As a self-confessed Paid Editor yourself, you may be aware that a suitable place to bring allegations of Paid Editing is WP:COIN. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC).

@Xxanthippe Understood, I hadn't been aware of this, as, as disclosed, paid editing makes up very, very little of my editing history, and is always unbiased. I understand that it is probably coming off more adversarial than it is intended, but this isn't a self confession, it's a required and ethical disclosure under Wikipedia Policy. Paid editing isn't a banned practice as long as it is impartial. I have never once acted in a manner that wasn't in the best interest of the Encyclopedia and the community, and the fact that I have bills to pay doesn't change that. I have litterally taken steps on multiple occasions to proactively warn when I knew about incoming biased editing, in this case, literally putting my own freelancing account at risk to provide evidence. Going forward, I think a little more assumption of good faith would be called for. Foxtrot620 (talk) 01:14, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

It is to your credit that you are open about your Paid Editing and adhere to the regulations, unlike some others. Xxanthippe (talk) 09:34, 30 June 2023 (UTC).

I would suggest going forward that proposed edits to this article, including sources proposed to be added, be brought to this page for discussion. I am happy to implement consensus edits that are determined to be constructive additions to any article. Cheers! BD2412 T 03:23, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

This is Andrew Ross. I am in fact who I say I am. I am asking for a review of the content per my previous comment. Please let me know if this is the correct location to make such request. I am only looking for the update requested as I want to ensure that everything is factual, yet neutral per your policies. I have made a disclosure of who I am but if there is a different way to disclose that I have not done, please let me know how to do so. 216.165.95.160 (talk) 19:18, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

You may like to look at Wikipedia:FAQ/Article subjects, particularly the first item. If your identity is confirmed you may wish to register a user account. This will protect you from false posts being attributed to you. Do you have any comment on the allegation on this talk page that on 23 May 2023 on Upwork Andrew Ross canvassed for a paid editor to edit his Wikipedia BLP? Xxanthippe (talk) 09:34, 30 June 2023 (UTC).

If there is something I did not disclose properly please let me know. I stated above that I sought a consultant but I am editing on my own accord based on their advice. 2603:7000:193F:FEF7:30F4:C521:CB2D:9EBF (talk) 15:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Tag restored

I have restored the {{citation needed}} tag for the proposition that "Outside his field, Ross is known for his part in the Sokal hoax for which he became a recipient of the 1996 Ig Nobel Prize for literature". The fact that there has been WP:COI editing to an article does not exempt that article from conforming to WP:BLP, which is an policy of overriding concern. This was raised a decade ago by User:FreeRangeFrog (for whom no conflict or bias on the subject is suggested). I have found no source, after a diligent search, indicating that the article subject is "known for" receiving such a designation. A single snarky editorializing opinion by Dawkins can not establish this. I am also concerned, per FreeRangeFrog, that the statement is inaccurate in other respects. As noted in my response above, the Ig Nobel Prize website makes no mention at all of this article subject by name, as a recipient of their award or in any other capacity. Having been an editor of an academic publication, I am keenly aware that any a given member of the staff may have little or no interaction with a particular article. We need a source saying otherwise in order for Wikipedia to say otherwise. BD2412 T 20:02, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

So, in light of these findings, can it be removed from the article, or at the least, removed from the lead of the article? 2603:7000:193F:FEF7:99CB:95C4:7DC6:1496 (talk) 19:11, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

@BD2412 Thanks. As things stand, removal is the only appropriate course of action per BLP policy. I've therefore removed the claim from the lede. Note however that per NYT, Ross did have some involvement in the paper's publication. Andreas JN466 20:12, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, at least unless and until someone can provide a source indicating that Ross is in fact "known for" receiving that prize on any sort of individual basis. BD2412 T 20:17, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

Thank you for reviewing my previous request. I have some additional items I am hoping you can review. The history section (last paragraph of Later Writing), begins with "in his latest book." This needs updating (see below). In the book list, can we add the book: "Cars and Jails: Freedom Dreams, Debt and Carcerality (2022)”? Accordingly, I would also like to add the following paragraph to the end of that Later Writing section:

In 2015, Ross helped to launch NYU’s Prison Education Program, and is the director of the program’s Prison Research Lab. The Lab’s faculty and formerly incarcerated students do research on carceral debt. His latest book, Cars and Jails: Freedom Dreams, Debt, and Carcerality (co-authored with Julie Livingston) investigates the overlap between auto debt and carceral debt, generated by predatory policing and predatory lending respectively.

@unsigned 1-edit WP:Spa. Do you have any connection with Andrew Ross (sociologist) that you should have disclosed under WP:COI? Xxanthippe (talk) 01:17, 22 July 2023 (UTC).

See [1] I couldn't see any reference to Ross being the director of the Research Lab in the cited sources, and I thought the Research Lab content fitted better in the Activism section rather than the Writing section, but the rest looked good. Thanks. --Andreas JN466 11:22, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

This seems reasonable, yes. BD2412 T 18:14, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

The Edit Request comes from myself, Andrew Ross. The reference to my director's position can be found here: https://www.pepresearchlab.com/our-team. FWIW, the research conducted by the Lab is academic and not activist in nature, and is publication-oriented, as in the case of the book, Cars and Jails, so I myself feel it belongs in the Writing section. Marcusquintillius (talk) 18:31, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the source and the explanation; I've moved the content accordingly. Andreas JN466 19:02, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, and please do add the new book to the Books section. BTW, I am Andrew Ross. I created the account at the suggestion of editors in the previous threads. Marcusquintillius (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Nice to meet you. I added the book to the Books section in an earlier edit. Loved (if that's the right word) the Vox and NYT articles, by the way. Very poignant. Andreas JN466 22:26, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Nice to meet you as well and thank you for the response to my edit request. I have two final requests I was hoping you could help with, since I have a conflict of interest.

• First sentence says I am Scottish. I am Scottish-born, but have lived in the United States since 1980 and all of my professional life and achievements have been in the U.S. Here is a reference to support which says I have not lived there since 1980 (https://www.chronicle.com/article/andrew-rosss-second-act/). Can we update it to say “Scottish-born?”
• There is a quote in the entry from Richard Dawkins that starts with “Ross has the boorish, tenured confidence to say things like…….” The information about this incident is already described in the previous paragraph. Under Wikipedia’s policy of Neutral Point of View, specifically the section on “due and undue weight,” I feel the quote is not necessary. Since it is only one person opining on the matter I believe it gives disproportionate weight to his sentiment. Can we remove this?

Marcusquintillius (talk) 15:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Edited. [2] Reasonable people may disagree about the second point but I did think that giving such prominence to a 25-year-old comment was a bit over the top. Regards, Andreas JN466 18:33, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

References